Breakdown In Civil Order

[TomC]

You act like they knew he was going to get killed.

They knew he a violent psycho roaming NYC didn't they?

Did Penny know that Neely would die? He knew less about him that all those many other people did.
Tom

So you're blaming all those other people but not the guy that actually killed him.

Nobody said it absolved Penny, at least not me.

5% Penny
40%Neely
40%family
15% state

How about that?
Give Penny a few hours of community service.
Tom

Tom

 

[laughing dog]

None of that absolves Penny, no matter how much you wish to shift the focus.

Nobody said it absolved Penny, at least not me.

5% Penny
40%Neely
40%family
15% state

How about that?
Give Penny a few hours of community service.
Tom

A couple of hours of community service for needlessly killing a black man? Mr. Penny is responsible for his choices and actions - no one forced him to have Mr. Neely in a chokehold for 2 minutes.

You want to blame Jordan Neely's mom? She was murdered 16 years ago. Mr. Neely is an adult (30 years old). I don't know what world you live in, but if an adult doesn't want to be institutionalized, the family really cannot do anything short of duct-taping the person to the wall.

Really, your position is risible.

 

[ZiprHead]

You act like they knew he was going to get killed.

They knew he a violent psycho roaming NYC didn't they?

Did Penny know that Neely would die? He knew less about him that all those many other people did.
Tom

So you're blaming all those other people but not the guy that actually killed him.

Nobody said it absolved Penny, at least not me.

5% Penny
40%Neely
40%family
15% state

How about that?
Give Penny a few hours of community service.
Tom

Tom

Yes, I saw it. I figured you would bring it up again.

So Neely's family had forty percent of the arm around the throat, the government fifteen and Neely himself had forty percent of the arm around the throat. Makes perfect sense.

 

[TV and credit cards]

What might come into play is Penny’s age. Even with training in the Marines, just like a cop who is similarly trained but new to the force will experience an adrenaline rush during such a situation. Regardless of training, these are tough to control and control comes with experience not classroom training.
Read a bit about it and y’all might come to understand why even when being told to release, he didn’t or in this instance, perhaps couldn’t immediately do so.

 

[Politesse]

He truly is a disaster for the citizens of LA County. Too bad the recall effort failed.

Why was that, I wonder?

 

[repoman]

None of that absolves Penny, no matter how much you wish to shift the focus.

Nobody said it absolved Penny, at least not me.

5% Penny
40%Neely
40%family
15% state

How about that?
Give Penny a few hours of community service.
Tom

A couple of hours of community service for needlessly killing a black man? Mr. Penny is responsible for his choices and actions - no one forced him to have Mr. Neely in a chokehold for 2 minutes.

You want to blame Jordan Neely's mom? She was murdered 16 years ago. Mr. Neely is an adult (30 years old). I don't know what world you live in, but if an adult doesn't want to be institutionalized, the family really cannot do anything short of duct-taping the person to the wall.

Really, your position is risible.

I am not an expert, but people who seem to be, say that it was a "blood choke", not a windpipe choke.

I would also say that George Floyd also had a blood choke applied to him.

I will continue in my laziness and post the wiki for chokeholds:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chokehold

 

[repoman]

On another note, talk about total breakdown in civil order, there is such a massive supply of videos of "thieves" in Africa and South America that are beaten up and then set on fire.

People....

 

[lpetrich]

Over in the mass-shooting thread, Elixir mentioned 14-year-old fatally shot in the back by S.C. store owner, sheriff says - "The owner, Rick Chow, and his son chased Cyrus Carmack-Belton, who at one point fell and started running away again before he was killed, the Richland County sheriff said."

Democratic State Rep. Todd Rutherford, the attorney for the teen's family, said in an Instagram post that what happened to the teen "wasn’t an accident. It’s something that the Black community has experienced for generations: being racially profiled, then shot down in the street like a dog. Words can’t describe the pain I feel having known this family for decades."

"I’m asking that our community continue to wrap their arms around this family as they’ve joined the club that no Black family ever wants to be a part of. You’re outraged. I’m outraged," he added.

In a statement, Rep. Jim Clyburn, D-S.C., said “this tragedy should have never happened,” adding Carmack-Belton recently celebrated his eighth grade graduation from Summit Parkway Middle School.

“The criminalization of Black men and boys and the historic trend of painting them as aggressors have time and again led to deadly and heartbreaking circumstances. Cyrus Carmack-Belton has since been declared innocent, but his supposed crime of shoplifting a bottle of water should not have cost him his life. I pray justice is swift,” the assistant Democratic leader said in the statement.

However, some people have this response, which I find rather horrible.

A crowd gathered outside the store Monday to protest, the report said. At 9:43 p.m., several people broke into the store and took items off the shelves, it said.

Pictures of the aftermath show Carmack-Belton's name spray-painted on the store, as well as broken glass and trash. Signs reading "No child deserves to die over water" and "CLOSE IT DOWN" were taped outside the store.

 

[Derec]

Why was that, I wonder?

Too many idiots and/or felons voting in LA County?

Just curious: why do you think that was?

Btw, here is a case where Gascon and his minions let another violent criminal repeatedly avoid prison time until she killed someone. It is similar to the case TSwizzle posted about.
Innocent LA father killed after DA Gascon gives violent career criminal multiple diversions

A violent career criminal who was on the streets and not in jail because she was assigned mental health treatment instead of prison time is accused of killing an innocent Los Angeles father.
Jade Simone Brookfield, 23, was arrested in April and charged with murder after she allegedly fatally stabbed 40-year-old Dennis Banner during an argument in a street. Law enforcement sources tell Fox News that Brookfield had a lengthy criminal history for alleged assault, assault with a deadly weapon and multiple violent felonies with knives, but she had inexplicably avoided incarceration and was repeatedly given mental health diversions.
It took a family losing their father for Brookfield's diversion to be terminated, and only now is the suspect finally being held in custody.
[...]
Brookfield's first encounter with Los Angeles police happened in the early spring of 2020, during Gascon's first year in office. Brookfield was arrested for attempted murder after she stabbed a woman in the chest with a knife, puncturing her lung.
[...]prosecutors agreed to a deal where Brookfield was given mental health diversion instead of jail time.
[...]A source said that Brookfield absconded and was initially terminated from the diversion program. However, she was permitted to re-enlist in diversion and was given another chance.
In September 2021, Brookfield was arrested for battery of a peace officer. She was again given a mental health diversion and Gascon's office dismissed the case. Three months later in December, Brookfield was arrested for a third time for making criminal threats after she allegedly assaulted a man, pulled out two knives and threatened to kill him. Despite her known record of violent assault, prosecutors rejected the case because of a lack of evidence, according to Gascon's office.

That man is a fucking menace!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Blaming Penny because he didn't know how to deal effectively with a violent psycho on the subway is ridiculous. It's completely nonsense. Penny had 2 minutes to figure out how to deal with a problem that was decades in the making.

I'll clue you in on something. It's New York City. There are always psychos on the subway, city busses, etc. The people have learned a long time ago to ignore them.

How well does that work out for people like that old lady who's face Neely smashed?
Tom

Exactly. Ignoring them doesn't always work, they sometimes attack anyway. They belong in a closed psychiatric facility. Unfortunately, reality comes down to sometimes it will be settled by force--and in a confrontation like that there isn't really a non-lethal solution. One adult without tools can't safely restrain another.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

None of that absolves Penny, no matter how much you wish to shift the focus.

Nobody said it absolved Penny, at least not me.

5% Penny
40%Neely
40%family
15% state

How about that?
Give Penny a few hours of community service.
Tom

I very much doubt his family could have done anything. I apportion the blame between Neely and the state.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What might come into play is Penny’s age. Even with training in the Marines, just like a cop who is similarly trained but new to the force will experience an adrenaline rush during such a situation. Regardless of training, these are tough to control and control comes with experience not classroom training.
Read a bit about it and y’all might come to understand why even when being told to release, he didn’t or in this instance, perhaps couldn’t immediately do so.

And remember that he had combat training, not martial arts training. Big difference. Penny was taught to win the fight, period, taking the person alive is very much a secondary objective.

Combat sports, however, the fate of your opponent is much more important than victory. And there are accepted safe surrender options.

Neely could almost certainly have safely surrendered in this situation--but probably was unable to do so on a mental level. Penny, faced with an opponent that continued to resist continued the attack. It's an unfortunate outcome but when you let land mines wander the subway things sometimes happen.

 

[TomC]

I very much doubt his family could have done anything. I apportion the blame between Neely and the state.

I don't know much of anything about his family. I know that Neely was hitting up strangers on the subway because he was hungry, but not his family. I know one of violent relatives was released from custody because of this. I know that the family is grifting on the internet because "they loved him so much".

I don't know how things work in NYC, but around here family can at least try to get a demonstrably dangerous person kept in custody. Maybe they did, I dunno.

But I cannot accept the claim that Penny is a violent psycho and a murderer.
Tom

 

[Emily Lake]

I doubt there's a single human being in history who has never once engaged in unlawful violence.

I think you're incredibly wrong. I think the vast majority of humans never engage in unlawful violence. That it's so commonplace for you seems a bit troubling.

I think you underestimate how overarching and pettifogging the letter of the law is.

Most unlawful actions are never reported to, or noticed by, the legal system, and most of those that are are dismissed summarily at the discretion of individual police officers or prosecutors as unworthy of pursuit.

Of course, this amplifies enormously any biases on the part of police, who may not be scrupulously even-handed in deciding when to take matters further than an informal caution (or even just a looming uniformed presence, which can be sufficient to prevent escalation without any action whatsoever).

The offences that get reported are a minuscule fraction of those committed; A small fraction of reported are investigated; A small fraction of investigations lead to arrests; A fraction of arrests lead to trials; And a fraction of trials lead to convictions.

Most people have done something violent at some point in their lives that could have led to jail time if it had been reliably recorded and then prosecuted to the maximum extent possible. But these events are (quite rightly) ignored as the trivia they are, and even when the victims are keen to seek legal action (which they mostly are not), are usually insufficiently well evidenced to lead to a court case, much less a conviction.

Most such violence is perpetrated by children anyway, which is why "...the offender was prosecuted as an adult" always makes me cringe in the reporting of US trials. No civilised country can decide that a child is suddenly an adult, when they feel that they otherwise lack sufficient grounds for revenge against that child.

Unless you're counting toddlers biting people and kindergartners smacking someone when they're mad... I still think you're dramatically overestimating how many people engage in unlawful violence. Or you're taking an exceptionally broad and squishy view of the words "unlawful" and "violence".

I have not instigated any violence at all since I was five and dumped a whole jug of Kool-Aid over the head of a classmate who said my mom's trail mix was yucky. I know only a very few people who have done anything any more extreme than a middle school fist-fight in their entire lives.

 

[Emily Lake]

The guy was obviously mentally ill and wanted food and water. Instead of getting him help, an asshole comes up from being him and chokes him to death. And the fake christians all over the country are supporting the murderer.

Derec. Who is more dangerous? The guy that punches an old woman or the guy that unnecessarily kills a mentally ill person?

Are you seriously taking the side of the aggressor over the side of the defender?

 

[Emily Lake]

Blaming Penny because he didn't know how to deal effectively with a violent psycho on the subway is ridiculous. It's completely nonsense. Penny had 2 minutes to figure out how to deal with a problem that was decades in the making.

I'll clue you in on something. It's New York City. There are always psychos on the subway, city busses, etc. The people have learned a long time ago to ignore them.

How well does that work out for people like that old lady who's face Neely smashed?
Tom

She's still alive. Neely's not.

Seriously?

Just so we're clear, you're taking a position that a violent aggressor is in the right as long as they don't kill anyone. And that any defense against that violent aggressor is wrong if it risks or results in their death.

Let me make this crystal clear for you: You are taking the position that a violent rapist who is caught in the act of beating the shit out of someone he is raping is the "victim" if someone intervenes and kills the fucking rapist. Because the victim of the rapists aggressive violence is still alive and the rapist isn't.

 

[Emily Lake]

Apparently Penny didn't learn that second part.

I keep asking.

Why didn't all the many many people who were aware of Neely's problems deal with them before some guy on the subway got stuck dealing with them?
Tom

So all those others neglecting him means it's okay to kill him?

Nobody said it's okay to kill him. On the other hand, it's NOT OKAY FOR NEELY TO FUCKING ATTACK PEOPLE and it *is* okay for people to intervene to control someone who is being a violent aggressor - something you seem to have a lot of trouble grokking.

 

[Gospel]

You forgot that while It's a great idea to have theories it's also great to remember that they are just theories. Failure doing so leads a person to a view of the real world obscured by some superimposes self-generated image.

I'm not sure what you mean by "theories" in this post.

It's a fact that Neely was on the subway. He wasn't at his family's place.
Is that what you're referring to as a "theory"? Because I don't see it as one.
Tom

It is a fact that Neely was on the subway train, that he was not at his family's place at the time of his death, and that he was choked to death. It is also a fact that he has a record of violence. However, what is not a fact at this time is what led up to the choke hold. We only have the accounts of witnesses, and witnesses are not always reliable. Therefore, any claims about what led up to the choke hold are conjecture.


For example you said:

It's not an accepted rationale for killing anyone. It's a human response to a violent situation.

Did the authorities who put Neely back on the streets, knowing that he was a violent psycho, know what they were doing?

How about his family, the people who loved him so much they started a grifting campaign once he was dead. Did they know what they were doing?

All these people knew a lot more about Neely than Penny did. Why didn't they handle the problem before Neely was back on the subway causing the sort of problems he'd already caused before?
Tom

How do you know it was a violent situation? Witness testimony? The choke hold? Or were you a fly on the wall?

Neely has a record of violence however a record doesn't justify putting someone in a choke hold. Their ought to be evidence of a current violent act justifying a choke hold.

I'm inclined to believe Neely did do the things the witnesses said based on his record however I'm not one of those assholes who think Its the American way to believe people are guilty before proven innocent.

 

[Gospel]

And remember that he had combat training, not martial arts training. Big difference. Penny was taught to win the fight, period, taking the person alive is very much a secondary objective.

That's odd. Then why do they call it MCMAP (Marine Corps Martial Arts Program)?

 

[Emily Lake]

How do you know it was a violent situation? Witness testimony? The choke hold? Or were you a fly on the wall?

Neely has a record of violence however a record doesn't justify putting someone in a choke hold. Their ought to be evidence of a current violent act justifying a choke hold.

I'm inclined to believe Neely did do the things the witnesses said based on his record however I'm not one of those assholes who think Its the American way to believe people are guilty before proven innocent.

I hear what you're saying, and I generally agree with the sentiment.

But I also think there's a bit of Occam's Razor here. While there are certainly many different paths this could take, there are essentially two competing lines:
1) Neely was behaving in a threatening and/or violent manner, and Penny intervened with the intent of stopping Neely from causing harm to innocent bystanders; Penny over-did it and ended up killing Neely inadvertently
2) Neely was behaving in a perfectly normal and non-threatening way, clearly no danger to anyone, and Penny attacked him for no reason at all and murdered him by choking.

I also don't think people are guilty before being proved innocent - and that includes Penny. Given that Neely has a documented history of violent behavior, and Penny does not, I'm inclined to give more credence to the first scenario than to the second. Ultimately it will be up to the courts to decide... but my initial inclination is to accept that Penny was acting with the intent of preventing harm and that Neely's death was most likely unintentional.