Breakdown In Civil Order

[Jarhyn]

Can this even be real?

In our current post-truth world, if that question even vaguely begins to speculate about the possibility of thinking about crossing your mind, it is a safe bet that the answer is "no".

It would seem incredibly stupid to put one at such risk over a box with unknown contents. Imagine getting a ceramic flower pot smashed over your head for a box with glow in the dark tape in it. They charged that thing like it was the latest iPad. Of course, criminals are often not burdened with having a great deal of intelligence.

Nor are conservatives.

That isn't particularly relevant or accurate. The question is, was this performance art, or are some people following delivery trucks and actually stealing packages. With social media, who knows, it could be either.

In my adult life, I have never had a package stolen. The worst was misdelivered, but it has always found its way home.

As to the accuracy? I would say conservatives do tend to lack an overburdening of intelligence, as interpreted as the capacity to learn over time, else they would not be so attached to outdated views that time has moved beyond.

But as to porch pirates... Same, although having a Ring camera it's clear that packages do get stolen. I watch it happen from time to time as recorded on cameras around the area, but it is not actually common, and even more rarely anywhere near me.

Then, someone is usually here at home when there is a delivery out, my husband tracks when things will be delivered, and we get a special notification immediately when it happens.

I will say I'm disappointed with how rarely something ends up inside the screen door, though.

It's like people are allergic to dropping something inside a mudroom.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Can this even be real?

In our current post-truth world, if that question even vaguely begins to speculate about the possibility of thinking about crossing your mind, it is a safe bet that the answer is "no".

It would seem incredibly stupid to put one at such risk over a box with unknown contents. Imagine getting a ceramic flower pot smashed over your head for a box with glow in the dark tape in it. They charged that thing like it was the latest iPad. Of course, criminals are often not burdened with having a great deal of intelligence.

Nor are conservatives.

That isn't particularly relevant or accurate. The question is, was this performance art, or are some people following delivery trucks and actually stealing packages. With social media, who knows, it could be either.

In my adult life, I have never had a package stolen. The worst was misdelivered, but it has always found its way home.

As to the accuracy? I would say conservatives do tend to lack an overburdening of intelligence, as interpreted as the capacity to learn over time, else they would not be so attached to outdated views that time has moved beyond.

That is absolutely false. There seem to be two types of intelligence, regular and partisan. There are smart creationists. It is just that the partisan side of their mind leads to a sense of irrationality. Some Trump supporters are dumb as rocks. But many Biden voters are dumb as rocks too. Though with Biden, I doubt you'd find anywhere need the same tribal partisanship towards him as there is with Trump supporters for Trump.

But as to porch pirates... Same, although having a Ring camera it's clear that packages do get stolen.

Did it? Unless that box had a sticker indicating it had a lithium battery inside, I have no idea why two people would race for it. It is irrational.

 

[Jarhyn]

Can this even be real?

In our current post-truth world, if that question even vaguely begins to speculate about the possibility of thinking about crossing your mind, it is a safe bet that the answer is "no".

It would seem incredibly stupid to put one at such risk over a box with unknown contents. Imagine getting a ceramic flower pot smashed over your head for a box with glow in the dark tape in it. They charged that thing like it was the latest iPad. Of course, criminals are often not burdened with having a great deal of intelligence.

Nor are conservatives.

That isn't particularly relevant or accurate. The question is, was this performance art, or are some people following delivery trucks and actually stealing packages. With social media, who knows, it could be either.

In my adult life, I have never had a package stolen. The worst was misdelivered, but it has always found its way home.

As to the accuracy? I would say conservatives do tend to lack an overburdening of intelligence, as interpreted as the capacity to learn over time, else they would not be so attached to outdated views that time has moved beyond.

That is absolutely false. There seem to be two types of intelligence, regular and partisan. There are smart creationists. It is just that the partisan side of their mind leads to a sense of irrationality. Some Trump supporters are dumb as rocks. But many Biden voters are dumb as rocks too. Though with Biden, I doubt you'd find anywhere need the same tribal partisanship towards him as there is with Trump supporters for Trump.

¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

But as to porch pirates... Same, although having a Ring camera it's clear that packages do get stolen.

Did it? Unless that box had a sticker indicating it had a lithium battery inside, I have no idea why two people would race for it. It is irrational.

Well, my point through this whole exchange, perhaps not clearly stated, was that I think the video is a piece of performance art sensationalizing and making hyperbole on the prevalence and behavior of porch pirates.

The most effective attack against a porch pirate one is beefing with over turf would be ripping away their mask off in front of the Ring camera, anyway. Screw hitting them with a pot, hit them with police.

Porch piracy is not a big enough payout for anyone doing it more than on a lark to have a conflict with someone in full view of a house anyway. Porch piracy doesn't happen like that and criminals, believe it or not, are just as smart as the population at large... which to be fair isn't very smart.

The video is not "real" except as "really a piece of performance art".

 

[bilby]

The video is not "real" except as "really a piece of performance art".

I was able to reach that conclusion without even watching it (I still haven't, and never will, for the same reason that I haven't clicked the link in the last email I got from a member of the Nigerian royal family).

It's malware aimed at human brains. It's supposed to change the way you think, in favour of the views of the people who made it; It might well be ineffective, but if it only works on one victim in ten thousand, and you get a million views, it is doing its job.

And all that was needed to identify it as such was to look at the packaging; The hook is "is this real?" - a question whose answer is certain to be "no", given that the asker doesn't know (or doesn't want to admit to knowing) - if they did know, and the answer was "yes", then they would give supporting evidence, rather than JAQing off.

 

[Emily Lake]

Given the current circumstances, how can we ensure the safety of women in California prisons moving forward? Simply insisting 'THEY ARE MEN' is not a viable solution, especially without the backing of evidence established by organizations such as the American Psychological Association and American Medical Association. Do you genuinely believe that insisting they are men is protecting women, or would it be more effective to engage with the transgender community, listen to their perspectives, build relationships, and work towards potential compromises at this stage?

How about we cut through all of the linguistic cartwheels and the embedded assumptions and the legal fictions based on wanting to support people's feelings about themselves?

People with penises and/or testes belong in the male prison. People with vaginas belong in the female prison. Engaging with the transgender community, listening to their perspectives, and so on doesn't make it safer for female inmates to be forced to share a cell with a fully intact male.

Acknowledging that males are males and are not females goes a lot further toward protecting women than pretending that some males are females because they say they are.

I get tired of having to say it over and over and over again. I don't have a problem with transsexual people; I have a very big problem with policies that are based on self-declared gender identity with no reasonable safeguards or oversight. I don't have a problem with transsexual males who have undergone therapy, counseling, observation, and complete genital surgery using female-specific intimate spaces (including prisons); I have a very serious problem with policies that grant blanket access to female-specific intimate spaces to any male who does nothing more than declare themselves to "feel like a woman" with no objective arbiter.

Hell, I'm even willing to be a bit fuzzier on the topic than that. I'm fine with people who have made a concerted effort to actually physically transition to the opposite sex using single-sex intimate spaces so long as they are respectful and are at least trying to pass. And in case there's any confusion here... when a male person who identifies as a woman is in the spa naked so that everyone can see their penis, they aren't trying. They're flaunting the fact that they're male.

 

[Emily Lake]

Before using the law to infringe on the rights of transgender women, there should be at least one documented case to justify such legislation. So I'll ask you too; find a case. I don't consider TheBeave's example valid either. By the way, I find it amusing that your question implies I don't care about women simply because I reject a fabricated narrative. For an appeal to emotion to be effective, it must be based on factual evidence. Right now, it appears you are exploiting women's issues to support unfounded claims.

What right do you think is at play here? Why do you think it should be a right for males who identify as women to supersede sex?

The rights of transgender women aren't being infringed upon at all - none of what is being demanded is actually a right, it's a demand for special privileges. And those privileges infringe on the rights of female humans by replacing the notion of sex (which is an observable material state) with the concept of gender identity (which is subjective and unverifiable).

You don't consider TheBeave's example of a transwoman getting transferred to a women's prison and raping a female inmate to be valid - why? I've forgotten which case TheBeave shared, so it might be duplicated among these cases where female inmates in female prisoners were raped or sexually assaulted by fully intact males who identified as transwomen:
Logan Correctional Center in Illinois
Rikers Island in NY
Central California Women's Facility
Edna Mahan Correctional Facility for Women in NJ
Hamilton County Jail in Ohio
Women’s Correctional Center in Washington

Let me guess, you’ve gathered a bunch of articles but lack any in-depth understanding of the cases. If I review all of them thoroughly, would you at least have the courtesy to honestly evaluate my work?

You guess wrong, but knock yourself out.

 

[Emily Lake]

My incentive is already low because it seems you think I believe transgender women should be housed in women's prisons. Actually, I don't think they should be, at least not without adequate hormone therapy (which, in many cases, these transgender women aren't receiving due to the prison system's failure).

We're going to disagree here.

I don't think hormone therapy alone is sufficient. Penectomy and orchiectomy are something I think should be required, the hormones are irrelevant at that point - all they do it direct fat to cluster in the breasts and buttocks. Well, and make people more likely to cry at sappy commercials on TV, because yes, estrogen does that.

On the other hand, I do NOT think that taxpayers should be footing the bill for transitions while incarcerated. I think if someone wants to seriously be considered for placement in the opposite sex facility while in prison, they must have undergone sufficient treatment prior to being arrested. If you go into prison as a fully intact male, you get to serve your entire sentence in a male prison.

And yes, I understand that some people think this is horribly unfair to prisoners who discover their true selves after they've spent a few years in prison, and after laws get passed that insist that male prisoners should have their feelings respected as a right and get placed with women if they feel like they're a woman. And I specify male here, because there simply aren't any female people who are transgender who WANT to be housed in the men's prison.

I do not believe that any prisoner should have the right to cosmetic procedures at taxpayer expense.

 

[Emily Lake]

I imagine this is only opposed by certain parties because it would lead to a political loss, namely they are no longer "men's" and "women's" estates, and that the real reason for their opposition to the result has nothing to do on reality with the rapes. I expect the rapes, for some, are just a political prop: that they aren't really something the politicizers care to resolve but rather that they use as an excuse to attack something they have an emotional dislike of and so not actually addressed in practical ways -- not unlike Hamas being more a political prop to excuse commission of genocide for Israel.

This might be the most singularly offensive and borderline misogynistic thing I've seen you post.

 

[Emily Lake]

To be fair, thebeave isn't listing a bunch of school massacres to show why allowing guns in the hands of citizens is unacceptable. So until someone can demonstrate that this isn't the exception to the rule, what is the significance?

Any violence against women in prison should be unacceptable. Is violence from transgenders in women prisons a certain source for harm of women? How many articles can you cite of transgenders in women's detainment not causing any problems? I'm assuming the number is zero, probably a reason for that.

Where a person is housed in these RARE circumstances should be based on the threat they pose to others and the threat the general population poses to them.

Just so we're clear, you're supporting a policy that INCREASES risk of violence against female inmates. And you're doing so on the basis of "Well sometimes those males don't actually commit violence against female inmates that are forcibly housed with them" as if that negates the increased risk.

Let's use your school shooting analogy:
Not all kids who have access to guns shoot up schools. And because some non-zero number of kids with guns do NOT shoot up schools, we should make it legal for all kids to bring guns to school.

That's the argument being made. That's what you're arguing - that because only some males who identify as women rape actual women when those women are forced to share cells with them, it's just not a big deal. We should support males being housed with women against the will of those women and without their consent, because some of those males are NOT going to rape women.

 

[Jarhyn]

Those who are offended by my broad calling-out of moral grandstanding and using folks as props can be offended for all I care. Of course, they could say "unlike (Republicans for whom this is a political prop), I really do care because X/Y/Z", we see "this offends me!".

The only reason I can see in this moment that this would offend anyone is if it applied to them. If it doesn't apply to your position, if you actually care about rapes, then its trivially easy to show you care about it by supporting policies specific to preventing rapists from having access to folks regardless of who they are or what their anatomy is.

We have some folks talking about strong policies to remove rapists from general populations, and expecting only those who make substantive moves with respect to HRT and removal of testes to be the only ones that might be housed with those for whom sperms are a threat, but these moves are mysteriously not supported by those who are offended that some do not believe they really care about rapes.

Penises. Are. Not. Guns.

We can see the radical misandry here on display.

EEK! A PENIS!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I do find it fairly hilarious that someone would rather put on a rubber suit and respirator and wade in a literal vault of shit rather than doing the much easier thing of just joining a scat fetish group and buying a glass table... Or just googling glass table porn.

I find it disturbing and quite funny that men are, in fact, more likely to do that (sit in a vat of shit) than to do as Derec suggests and dress up as women, but the reality is that cross dressing doesn't afford such access and requires actually being expected to understand and listen to women talking about their feelings... It's got all of the emotional costs and none of the sexual benefits that are presumed by people.

I think you're assuming that the attraction is the scat, rather than the voyeurism of an non-consenting victim.

If it wasn't the scat (or perhaps the pee) why in the world would they do something much more complex and to most people repulsive than necessary?

Because if it were the scat, there are a plethora of ways to get access to porn involving scat, as well as people out there perfectly willing to engage in such activities.

Why they would do something so repulsive... I couldn't tell you. There are a whole lot of things that I consider repulsive that people do, and it makes no sense to me. There are also a lot of things I consider pretty damned perverted that people do, that make no sense to me. But it's pretty well documented that men will go to some extraordinary lengths in order to peep on women without consent.

I think it's a matter of timeframe. I can't recall hearing of any such toilet peepers other than long ago. Now they can find it online, doesn't mean they could then.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Note that female attire as a disguise is not the same as being transgender.

How do you tell the difference? If you see a random person out in the world who is observably male based on the plethora of visual indicators of sex, and they are wearing a dress... what clues you in to whether they are transgender, or whether they're a man who likes a healthy breeze around his nethers, or whether they're in disguise?

I'm talking about female attire as a disguise rather than because the person wants to live as female.

Okay, again: How do you tell the difference?

The latter works with the system and gets an ID that says female. The former does not.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't believe a number can be selected in isolation.

Rather, it should be compared to other related threats. A good starting point would be what percent of attacks on women in women's spaces are due to trans individuals. Compare to those simply in drag (disguise, but with no intent to actually be female) and those who didn't hide.

Just to level set... your argument here is essentially that women get attacked by males in women's spaces already, so making it easier for males to attack women in women's spaces is just no big deal.

Once again you show that you're not doing a reasonable threat evaluation.

The question is not whether there is a threat, but whether certain behaviors are linked to an increase in the threat or not. And from what I've seen the answer is not. The attempts to portray trans as offenders always have flaws. And experience has taught me that a bunch of bad data for X almost always means there's no good data for X (else why did those arguing X not use it?) and that X is almost certainly false.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Many jurisdictions legally recognize gender changes, and medical guidelines support gender-affirming treatments and identities. While you can choose to disregard the dignity and rights of transgender women & can advocated for policies that violate their basic human rights, jurisdictions that legally recognize gender changes cannot do the same. Therefore, I asked you, as I asked Tswizzle: given that policies must be consistent across all sectors, including the prison system, is maintaining the rigid binary male/female classifications in the prison system not harmful to women?

Why must policies be consistent across all sectors? Prison is very different than the rest of society, in many cases it operates by different rules so why must it operate by the same rules in this case?

I do not know what the answer should be for trans individuals in prison. I do not believe that it must inherently be the same as for trans individuals in society. I, likewise, do not know what the answer should be in sports (other than in the cases where they never underwent male puberty--those individuals are indistinguishable from female.) I believe it's quite possible there should be separate answers for the three cases.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Can this even be real?

In our current post-truth world, if that question even vaguely begins to speculate about the possibility of thinking about crossing your mind, it is a safe bet that the answer is "no".

It would seem incredibly stupid to put one at such risk over a box with unknown contents. Imagine getting a ceramic flower pot smashed over your head for a box with glow in the dark tape in it. They charged that thing like it was the latest iPad. Of course, criminals are often not burdened with having a great deal of intelligence.

Something to be understood about the criminal world: pecking order is very, very important. More is at stake than just the box.

 

[bilby]

Can this even be real?

In our current post-truth world, if that question even vaguely begins to speculate about the possibility of thinking about crossing your mind, it is a safe bet that the answer is "no".

It would seem incredibly stupid to put one at such risk over a box with unknown contents. Imagine getting a ceramic flower pot smashed over your head for a box with glow in the dark tape in it. They charged that thing like it was the latest iPad. Of course, criminals are often not burdened with having a great deal of intelligence.

Something to be understood about the criminal world: pecking order is very, very important. More is at stake than just the box.

It has not been established that this video shows anything other than actors following a script.

It therefore tells us bupkis about "the criminal world", and your opinion on that "world" isn't one I would expect to be well informed even if the video showed exactly what it claims to show.

 

[TSwizzle]

Things just getting worse;

After a wave of violent incidents in Santa Monica, residents and city officials are expressing some serious concerns, with the city’s mayor asking for emergency funds, more police and state assistance. “There’s beautiful things about the city, but we’re losing it,” Christina Tullock, who lives on the Santa Monica-Venice border, said. Tullock told KTLA’s Rachel Menitoff that she regularly sees one violent attack after another and believes the issues causing the problems are mental health and drug related. Just this weekend, five men were arrested after a giant brawl broke out on the beach, leaving one person stabbed and another with a broken ankle. Both victims were hospitalized. Earlier in the week, 32-year-old Jawann Dwayne Garnett, who police say is homeless, was arrested after violent attacks on three female beachgoers. He has since been charged with attempted rape and attempted murder. Leonard Hector Korpie, 26 of Venice, was charged with homicide after allegedly punching and killing the manager of a Santa Monica bar. (Santa Monica Police Department) Late in May, a 39-year-old man believed to be homeless was arrested after reportedly attacking a 73-year-old woman, leaving her with minor injuries. Bystanders also said the suspect had been seen trying to punch others in the area.

News

This is what happens when you let the "homeless" camp on the sidewalk.

 

[Politesse]

Things just getting worse;

After a wave of violent incidents in Santa Monica, residents and city officials are expressing some serious concerns, with the city’s mayor asking for emergency funds, more police and state assistance. “There’s beautiful things about the city, but we’re losing it,” Christina Tullock, who lives on the Santa Monica-Venice border, said. Tullock told KTLA’s Rachel Menitoff that she regularly sees one violent attack after another and believes the issues causing the problems are mental health and drug related. Just this weekend, five men were arrested after a giant brawl broke out on the beach, leaving one person stabbed and another with a broken ankle. Both victims were hospitalized. Earlier in the week, 32-year-old Jawann Dwayne Garnett, who police say is homeless, was arrested after violent attacks on three female beachgoers. He has since been charged with attempted rape and attempted murder. Leonard Hector Korpie, 26 of Venice, was charged with homicide after allegedly punching and killing the manager of a Santa Monica bar. (Santa Monica Police Department) Late in May, a 39-year-old man believed to be homeless was arrested after reportedly attacking a 73-year-old woman, leaving her with minor injuries. Bystanders also said the suspect had been seen trying to punch others in the area.

News

This is what happens when you let the "homeless" camp on the sidewalk.

As opposed to what?

 

[ZiprHead]

This is what happens when you let the "homeless" camp on the sidewalk.

Okay, where would you put them?

 

[Emily Lake]

I do not know what the answer should be for trans individuals in prison. I do not believe that it must inherently be the same as for trans individuals in society. I, likewise, do not know what the answer should be in sports (other than in the cases where they never underwent male puberty--those individuals are indistinguishable from female.) I believe it's quite possible there should be separate answers for the three cases.

That's not true.

A male that is locked into a permanent juvenile state with respect to their sexual function will probably not have a beard, nor will they have thick arm and leg hair. They won't have a lower voice. And they might have lower muscle density.

But they'll still have the same overall height that they would have had, as well as the same arm span and leg length. They'll still have femurs that are perpendicular to the ground, allowing for a male gait and increased stride when running. They'll still have broader shoulders and narrower hips, larger lungs, and higher-capacity hearts.

Testosterone doesn't drive those things, the adrenal gland does. Depriving a young man of testosterone during puberty doesn't shut off his adrenal, nor does it alter his skeleton.