Breakdown In Civil Order

[Derec]

In before Bilby, pretrial detention is the exception, not the rule.

How do you make sure defendants show up for trial?
What about violent crimes? Still no pretrial detention or bail?

America is so fucking gaga over it prison and jail have separate fucking meanings.

Jails - run by counties or cities, for pretrial detention and for shorter custodial sentences of less than a year (usually misdemeanors).
Prison - run by states, for longer custodial sentences (usually felonies)

Federal crimes have federal prisons and federal detainees are held in either federal detention centers or sometimes county jails.

 

[Derec]

I didn't suggest that criminals should be free. I suggested that they should be treated well, rather than being abused and brutalised.

In a previous discussion, you suggested that burglars and robbers should be paid a stipend so they do not rob/steal again instead of locking them up.

US prison conditions are vile, and you would struggle to devise a punishment less effective at reducing recidivism.

I agree with that in general. And prisons in say Netherlands or Sweden are too cushy.
Again, a case where different societies overcorrect in opposite directions.
Prison should not be cruel. It should not be too comfortable either.

Prisoners who are better people on their release than they were when they went inside is the goal.

In general, yes. Some people are just rotten though.
Take Jaden Myrick from the article I posted. His behavior both during detention in juvie and while out on parole indicated that he should go to prison. But the bleeding heart judge let him out and kept him out. With the result that he murdered an innocent man in cold blood during another robbery.

So, to reiterate, you can tell a great deal about a society from the way it treats it's convicts.

Like releasing armed robbers early as out system is wont to do?
US is a very diverse country. A lot depends on what jurisdiction you are in, what judge deciding your case, and what crime you have committed (armed robberies resulting in early releases ridiculously frequently).

One thing it tells us about the US is that it's a harsh and uncaring nation that would rather apply vengeance against people who commit crimes, than attempt to make them better members of society.

That is a rather simplistic analysis.

 

[Patooka]

How do you make sure defendants show up for trial?

Exactly how you would think. They don't show up, cops go after them. This isn't rocket science.

What about violent crimes? Still no pretrial detention or bail?

Ask a magistrate.

Jails - run by counties or cities, for pretrial detention and for shorter custodial sentences of less than a year (usually misdemeanors).
Prison - run by states, for longer custodial sentences (usually felonies)

Federal crimes have federal prisons and federal detainees are held in either federal detention centers or sometimes county jails.

Okay, I stand corrected. America is so fucking gaga over locking people up they have a plethora of names to justify the process, not just two.

I've got a question for you - what percentage of pretrial incarcerated Americans do you think are legitimate dangers to society and should be remanded before trial? Or to put it another way, how many people are currently jailed whilst waiting to be charged with a non-violent crime?

 

[Derec]

Exactly how you would think. They don't show up, cops go after them. This isn't rocket science.

If they can find them. And what happens when they are dragged back? The court date has to be rescheduled, so are they held then or released again after they promise to show up this time?

Btw, a nice thing about bail is that if a defendant absconds, i.e. does not show up and cannot be found at last known addresses, recovery of bail money is an incentive for licensed private bounty hunters to find that person and bring them to court.

Okay, I stand corrected. America is so fucking gaga over locking people up they have a plethora of names to justify the process, not just two.

Different things have different names. By the way, I looked it up. You guys also have "prisons" and "remand centers". It's not all "gaol" any more, even in that former prison colony.

I've got a question for you - what percentage of pretrial incarcerated Americans do you think are legitimate dangers to society and should be remanded before trial? Or to put it another way, how many people are currently jailed whilst waiting to be charged with a non-violent crime?

I have not worked out a percentage. I would say less than in most places in the US, but more than in NY post bail deform.

I think it should be up to a judge's discretion based on several variables
- nature of crime, esp. violent vs. non-violent
- strength of evidence against defendant
- defendant's history (criminal history? history of failure to appear? awaiting trial on a different charge? ease of absconding?)

A judge should be able to take those things into account when deciding between
- release on own recognizance
- imposing bail
- releasing on home confinement w electronic monitoring (aka ankle bracelet)
- remand to custody

 

[bilby]

You do not have pretrial detention in Australia?

Of course we do. Why the fuck would you imagine that we didn't, and why the fuck would you imagine that it's in any way relevant to my argument?

Tu Quoque is a logical fallacy. That Australia does something wrong doesn't in any way absolve the USA for doing something similar wrong.

 

[bilby]

What you want is to lean way to far in favor of criminals, at the expense of regular people who are the victims of the people you want to tilt the playing field in favor of.

No, that's absolutely not what I want. That's what you fear would be the result of any attempt to be less cruel. And you are wrong to fear that.

 

[bilby]

You also would not end up with anything like the pro-criminal system you keep advocating.

As I am in no way advocating a pro-criminal system, this is nonsense.

 

[bilby]

Prison is for felonies. Many misdemeanors are punishable by a stay in county jail.
I do not know if the Aussie nomenclature is similar

Outside the US, prison and jail are interchangeable synonyms, and I use either to mean incarceration of a convict.

 

[bilby]

I agree with you that there are many people in jails and prisons who do not belong there. At the same time, there are people who commit serious crimes who should be in prison for longer than they are.

Perhaps. But I suspect that the former are far more numerous, and the latter far rarer, than you believe.

And the legal system should adhere to the principle expressed in the Blackstone formulation, that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer.

Not least because as innocent people, we should fear the consequences to ourselves personally should the punishment of innocent suspects become the norm.

 

[bilby]

In a previous discussion, you suggested that burglars and robbers should be paid a stipend so they do not rob/steal again instead of locking them up.

No, I didn't.

I suggested that people without means should be provided with support so that theft wasn't their only option.

That's not quite the same thing. For a start, under my suggestion, burglars and robbers would be a small and incidental subset of recipients, not the sole or even primary targets.

Your utter dismay at the thought that criminals might somehow benefit from anything, to the point that you would rather everyone else suffer than that someone in your hated class gain in the slightest way, is a damning condemnation of your character.

Burglars and robbers aren't cartoon characters; They're real people, just like you. They have highly complex and highly varied motivations for their criminal behaviours, just like you have for yours. And they think their crimes aren't that big a deal, just as you do, and in many cases, both you and they are correct. Yet you advocate for harsh treatment for them, and understanding and forgiveness for you.

That's not a rational set of positions. You should adjust them accordingly.

 

[bilby]

And prisons in say Netherlands or Sweden are too cushy.

Really? Do you have a single shred of evidence to support this claim?

 

[bilby]

Prison should not be cruel. It should not be too comfortable either

Being prohibited from leaving is never a comfortable position to be in.

I suppose it's too much to expect an American to understand what "freedom" is, or why it's important.

 

[Hermit]

You do not have pretrial detention in Australia?

In before Bilby, pretrial detention is the exception, not the rule. America is so fucking gaga over it prison and jail have separate fucking meanings.

At the time the 2021 census was conducted there were 42,970 imprisoned people in Australia. 27,680 of them were sentenced and 15,182 unsentenced. 35% cannot be regarded as exceptional by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Hermit]

And prisons in say Netherlands or Sweden are too cushy.

Really? Do you have a single shred of evidence to support this claim?

Well, there is the murder rate per 100,000 inhabitants.

Netherlands 0.6
Norway 0.6
USA United States  6.3

Cushy prisons clearly lead to greater murder rates.

 

[ZiprHead]

And prisons in say Netherlands or Sweden are too cushy.

Really? Do you have a single shred of evidence to support this claim?

Well, there is the murder rate per 100,000 inhabitants.

Netherlands 0.6
Norway 0.6
USA United States  6.3

Cushy prisons clearly lead to greater murder rates.

This was addressed in Michael Moore's Where To Invade Next.

 

[Oleg]

And prisons in say Netherlands or Sweden are too cushy.

Really? Do you have a single shred of evidence to support this claim?

Well, there is the murder rate per 100,000 inhabitants.

Netherlands 0.6
Norway 0.6
USA United States  6.3

Cushy prisons clearly lead to greater murder rates.

Demographics matter. What is the murder rate of Dutch or Swedish Americans? Probably similar to their cousins in the home country.

 

[lpetrich]

Oleg, show us how well you can research. Like show that you are better at researching than I am.

 List of U.S. states and territories by intentional homicide rate - even the lowest rate is higher than in NL or NO.
 List of countries by intentional homicide rate
Murder Rate by Country 2022

Canada, at 2.2 per 100,000, is lower than all but four US states and territories: NH 0.9, ME 1.6, ID 2.2, VT 2.2. Other Anglo or ex-Anglo countries: UK 1.2, Ireland 0.7, Australia 0.9, New Zealand 2.6.

 

[Oleg]

Oleg, show us how well you can research. Like show that you are better at researching than I am.

 List of U.S. states and territories by intentional homicide rate - even the lowest rate is higher than in NL or NO.
 List of countries by intentional homicide rate
Murder Rate by Country 2022

Canada, at 2.2 per 100,000, is lower than all but four US states and territories: NH 0.9, ME 1.6, ID 2.2, VT 2.2. Other Anglo or ex-Anglo countries: UK 1.2, Ireland 0.7, Australia 0.9, New Zealand 2.6.

Demographics matter.

https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/nypd/downloads/pdf/analysis_and_planning/year-end-2021-enforcement-report.pdf

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Well, those graphs prove it. Poverty and minorities only exist in America.

 

[Oleg]

Well, those graphs prove it. Poverty and minorities only exist in America.

Poverty does not cause crime. Asians are apparently not minorites. The charts simply show that demographics matter to homicide rates. In NYC, and the US generally, the homicide rate of one demographic pushes the number to crazy heights. The comparision to other Anglo and European countries - or even to low-crime Asian countries - is misleading as these countries have different demograpics.