Breakdown In Civil Order

[Oleg]

There is no trait that "men" have that "women" do not.

So the disparity of the sexes in prison is due to systemic sexism?

 

[Oleg]

If povery causes a person to commite homicide, then there should be partity between the sexes.

If poverty were the ONLY thing, yes.

As literally nobody is suggesting that it's the ONLY thing, your rebuttal is just a strawman argument, founded in an insanely simplistic view of the issue.

As usual.

If you concede it has little to no effect, then why raise the point at all?

I don't concede any such thing; Nor do I suggest, hint, or imply it.

And the point I raised is simply that you have made a childish error of reasoning. You are, to be blunt, both wrong, and stupidly wrong.

I raised this point in the hope that you might start to think more carefully before posting, and thereby either improve the quality or reduce the quantity of your contributions. It was, of course, a forlorn hope.

Jebus. Just admit you can't defend your position.

 

[Oleg]

Monocausal explanations for human behavior are typically doomed to failure because there are always multiple influences on human behavior.

No doubt. But it's so weird that in discussions of crime, it's verboten to suggest there could be other explanations. Let's change that, you and me.

 

[Jarhyn]

There is no trait that "men" have that "women" do not.

So the disparity of the sexes in prision is due to systemic sexism?

It is in some respects utterly shocking how badly the US education system has failed some folks.

Larger quantities of representation of a trait in one population vs another do not make it such that one can assume a trait is present or absent on the basis of group membership except when the membership to the group is exactly possession of the trait.

Only from some mechanism with an  absolute implication of a trait may one make any kind of judgement about any given person on the basis of that mechanism.

As such it wouldn't matter if "men" commit more crimes than "women" in evaluating if someone will or has committed some crime. The only way to ascertain whether someone is a criminal is to look at whether they commit crimes. You will not find that out by looking in someone's pants, genetics, hormones or clothing unless any one of those is immediately a crime.

Assuming that you can make such ascertainments of people on the basis of their genitals or genetics or hormones or clothing is quite pointedly unethical sexism.

 

[Oleg]

There is no trait that "men" have that "women" do not.

So the disparity of the sexes in prision is due to systemic sexism?

It is in some respects utterly shocking how badly the US education system has failed some folks.

Larger quantities of representation of a trait in one population vs another do not make it such that one can assume a trait is present or absent on the basis of group membership except when the membership to the group is exactly possession of the trait.

Only from some mechanism with an  absolute implication of a trait may one make any kind of judgement about any given person on the basis of that mechanism.

As such it wouldn't matter if "men" commit more crimes than "women" in evaluating if someone will or has committed some crime. The only way to ascertain whether someone is a criminal is to look at whether they commit crimes. You will not find that out by looking in someone's pants, genetics, hormones or clothing unless any one of those is immediately a crime.

Assuming that you can make such ascertainments of people on the basis of their genitals or genetics or hormones or clothing is quite pointedly unethical sexism.

So why are more men in prison than women? Are there group differences?

 

[Jarhyn]

There is no trait that "men" have that "women" do not.

So the disparity of the sexes in prision is due to systemic sexism?

It is in some respects utterly shocking how badly the US education system has failed some folks.

Larger quantities of representation of a trait in one population vs another do not make it such that one can assume a trait is present or absent on the basis of group membership except when the membership to the group is exactly possession of the trait.

Only from some mechanism with an  absolute implication of a trait may one make any kind of judgement about any given person on the basis of that mechanism.

As such it wouldn't matter if "men" commit more crimes than "women" in evaluating if someone will or has committed some crime. The only way to ascertain whether someone is a criminal is to look at whether they commit crimes. You will not find that out by looking in someone's pants, genetics, hormones or clothing unless any one of those is immediately a crime.

Assuming that you can make such ascertainments of people on the basis of their genitals or genetics or hormones or clothing is quite pointedly unethical sexism.

So why are more men in prison than women? Are there group differences?

Oleg, owing to your claimancy to a particular group, do you believe you belong in prison?

 

[Hermit]

As for the relationship between the level of income and the likelihood of becoming a criminal is indisputable. The less someone earns the more likely it is for becoming subject to correctional supervision.

That's weird. So there are poor women in the USA? Do they commit homicide at the same rate as men? If not, why not?

You missed the obvious, even as I spelled it out to you.

the relationship between the level of income and the likelihood of becoming a criminal is indisputable. The less someone earns the more likely it is for becoming subject to correctional supervision.

It means that women, like all other demographic sectors, in higher income brackets are less likely to resort to committing crimes than women in lower income brackets. It's something all demographic sectors share. The facts are there.

	Median annual incomes
​	Incarcerated women prior to incarceration​	Non-incarcerated women​		Income differential
All women​	$13,890.00​	$23,745.00​		41.5%
Black women​	$12,735.00​	$24,255.00​		47.4%
Hispanic women​	$11,820.00​	$15,000.00​		21.2%
White women​	$15,480.00​	$26,130.00​		40.8%

Or rather, we ignore the crimes of the wealthy and obsess over the crimes of the poor.

"Or"? How about "and"?

 

[bilby]

If povery causes a person to commite homicide, then there should be partity between the sexes.

If poverty were the ONLY thing, yes.

As literally nobody is suggesting that it's the ONLY thing, your rebuttal is just a strawman argument, founded in an insanely simplistic view of the issue.

As usual.

If you concede it has little to no effect, then why raise the point at all?

I don't concede any such thing; Nor do I suggest, hint, or imply it.

And the point I raised is simply that you have made a childish error of reasoning. You are, to be blunt, both wrong, and stupidly wrong.

I raised this point in the hope that you might start to think more carefully before posting, and thereby either improve the quality or reduce the quantity of your contributions. It was, of course, a forlorn hope.

Jebus. Just admit you can't defend your position.

Why would I "admit" to any such thing?

Perhaps you could stop making nonsensical accusations.

 

[Politesse]

There is whit collar crime and some of the worse have been prosecuted. High profile cases like Bernie Madoff.

White collar crimes are prosecuted all the time, but they do not get the attention community crime does.

White collar criminals, like Trump, are not holding up gas stations and here in Seattle pot shops.

Post Floyd and BLM Settle and Wa state made a knee jerk reaction to placte people. The result was ste law curtailing theability of polce to pursue criminals and even question a suspects person near a crime scence.

The reult unless it is kidnapping or a crmie like murder police can not pursue at high speed. So now when a cop pulls up behind you all's you have to do is hit the gas.

Firefighters and EMTs in Seattle are under attack. People steal equipment from fire enginess and EMT vehicles. Rocks thrown. Streets blaocked.

Firefighters fighting a fire assaulted.

More data points.

That blacks may be arrested and prsecued more than whites, and statistcally blacks are more likely to get injured by police than other groups is established. But the solution is not broadly restraining police.

For a long time in Seattle it was defund the police driven by the city council. Now it is neighborhoods including minorities saying where are the police, we need more police.

Lower income people have trouble making bail so the solution was to get rid of bail below a threshold. Predictably shop lifters get causght, walk out of jail, and shoplift again.

The best approach is developing in Seattle. Put money into youth diversion programs. As soon as I was old enough I had part tome jobs. The best thing to do is create jobs for kids in the summer. It will be a lot cheaper than more jail space.

When I was growing up in the summer there was always an organized place to go with adult supervsion.

At least "white collar crimes" are regarded as crimes. Most of the evil things wealthy people do are entirely legal, because they write the laws. Thus they get to hurt people with acts neither white nor blue nor crimes, and not even the threat of being collared.

As for the relationship between the level of income and the likelihood of becoming a criminal is indisputable. The less someone earns the more likely it is for becoming subject to correctional supervision.

That's weird. So there are poor women in the USA? Do they commit homicide at the same rate as men? If not, why not?

You missed the obvious, even as I spelled it out to you.

the relationship between the level of income and the likelihood of becoming a criminal is indisputable. The less someone earns the more likely it is for becoming subject to correctional supervision.

It means that women, like all other demographic sectors, in higher income brackets are less likely to resort to committing crimes than women in lower income brackets. It's something all demographic sectors share. The facts are there.

	Median annual incomes
​	Incarcerated women prior to incarceration​	Non-incarcerated women​		Income differential
All women​	$13,890.00​	$23,745.00​		41.5%
Black women​	$12,735.00​	$24,255.00​		47.4%
Hispanic women​	$11,820.00​	$15,000.00​		21.2%
White women​	$15,480.00​	$26,130.00​		40.8%

Or rather, we ignore the crimes of the wealthy and obsess over the crimes of the poor.

"Or"? How about "and"?

If you like. But I meant it as I wrote it.

 

[Derec]

The city of brotherly love;

Philadelphia residents have decried a recent spate of violent crime that has seen more than 750 people shot since the end of May, as a series of high profile incidents have rocked the crime-ridden city. Mass looting and other brazen assaults have also been commonplace, such as one over the weekend that saw more than 100 children as young as 10 storm and ransack a Wawa convenience store.

Daily Mail

That's what happens when you elect pro-crime DAs like Larry Krasner.

 

[lpetrich]

That's what happens when you elect pro-crime DAs like Larry Krasner.

Someone who supports prosecuting violent crime is "pro-crime"???

Pennsylvania Lawmakers Prepare to Impeach Larry Krasner

JEFFREY THOMAS, the Republican district attorney of southwestern Pennsylvania’s Somerset County, spent the night of April 25, 2022, in jail. After another person reported that they had seen him punching his wife in the head on FaceTime the previous May — an allegation the DA and his wife both deny — Thomas was charged with simple assault in a case pending trial. Two months later and 200 miles east, Republicans in the Pennsylvania General Assembly passed a resolution to convene a Select Committee on Restoring Law and Order and used its authority to subpoena a Pennsylvania district attorney: Philadelphia-based reformer Larry Krasner.

Krasner’s crime — according to Republicans, conservative Democrats, and police, who worked together to try to oust him last year — is an increase in the crimes of others: When homicides spiked in 2020, impacting Philadelphia, rural parts of the state, and many communities across the country, they blamed Krasner’s reform policies. As DA, Krasner has focused on prosecuting violent offenses and diverting people from incarceration. Less than a year ago, Philadelphia voters overwhelmingly reelected him.

He has rather sensible policies.

The PA General Assembly is proceeding with impeachment hearings after LK refused to comply with a subpoena for documents about how he prosecutes certain crimes: 2022.08.22_Letter_re_Subpoena - DocumentCloud He responded with 2022.08.22 Responses and Objections to Subpoena - DocumentCloud

The District Attorney’s Office objects to this Request on the grounds that the Select Committee’s Investigation and this Request do not serve a proper legislative purpose, violate separation of powers, invade legal privileges, and seek to deny the constitutional rights of Philadelphia’s citizens. Additionally, the District Attorney’s Office objects on the ground that this request is overly broad and unduly burdensome. The District Attorney’s Office further objects to this request to the extent that it seeks documents and information protected by the attorney-client privilege, executive privilege, deliberative privilege, investigative privilege, and work product doctrine.

Pursuant to these objections, the District Attorney’s Office will not search for or produce any documents in response to this Request.

Back to The Intercept.

Leading the impeachment charge are state lawmakers who represent districts hundreds of miles away from Philadelphia. The champions of the cause are Republicans, who have taken aim at the Democratic DA for implementing progressive reform policies since day one. Democratic lawmakers, meanwhile, have taken no such action against the Republican Somerset County DA — who, in addition the simple assault charge, is also under house arrest awaiting trial for allegedly raping and strangling a woman last year, and is now temporarily suspended from his job and from practicing law, but retains his seat — and instead have fallen in line with their Republican colleagues. When the vote came up on September 13, in a body with 89 Democrats and 113 Republicans, members voted 162 to 38 to hold Krasner in contempt.

...
The committee currently searching for legal grounds to impeach Krasner held hearings on Thursday and Friday in Philadelphia’s Navy Yard, a location that some critics have described as purposely inaccessible to most of the city’s residents.

...
GOP ire toward Krasner’s reform efforts — like implementing diversion programs for certain first-time nonviolent gun possession cases — has consumed a significant amount of state legislative time and threatens to take more, as the Republicans who control the General Assembly try to fast-track impeachment efforts before November. The same Republicans in far-flung parts of the state have repeatedly decried gun violence in Philadelphia while voting to gut gun control bills in the General Assembly. State lawmakers have similarly sought to undermine Krasner’s prosecutorial authority since he took office in 2018.

...
The overwhelmingly successful contempt vote, for which members had only a few hours’ notice, was held on the same day as the city’s first murder trial of an on-duty cop, whom Krasner had charged in October 2020 for the 2017 killing of a young Black man, 25-year-old Dennis Plowden. Krasner’s office has pursued police accountability and drawn fire from police and their union throughout his time in office.

 

[lpetrich]

Eric Swalwell on Twitter: "Hey @IlhanMN … if Kevin McCarthy & the MAGA extremists wanna have a debate on crime, maybe we should help them? After all, Kevin’s own district has been dubbed the “murder capital of California” for 5 years in a row…seems like Kevin could use the help. What do ya think?" / Twitter
then
Ilhan Omar on Twitter: "That’s right @ericswalwell, its time for Kevin and republicans who continue to point fingers at Dems to be held accountable for their lack of leadership in their districts. I am sure you have examples to share, here is a few (pix link)" / Twitter

Survey ranks Bakersfield top 10 most deadly cities in US as homicides rise in Kern | KBAK
noting
10 Most Dangerous Cities in the US for 2021 | SafeWise

Murder Rates Are Up in California’s Republican Counties

Murder Rates in Republican Counties: Is There a Link Between Homicide and Conservative Politics?

Some of California’s ‘reddest’ counties suddenly have alarmingly high homicide rates. What’s going on?

...
While it is popular at least on the political right to blame liberal policies for rising violent crime rates and for crime in general, California’s homicide stats show that in fact, as noted by Los Angeles Times columnist Anita Chabria, some of the worst murder rates in the state were recorded in the most politically conservative counties.

.... According to those 2020 stats, the murder rate in states where Trump won was a whopping 40 percent higher than in states won by Democrat Joe Biden.

Within California, Third Way noted, San Francisco—represented in Congress by Democratic House Speaker Nancy Pelosi—experienced only about half the murder rate of Bakersfield, a city whose congressional rep is Republican leader Kevin McCarthy.

...
Several of the rural, low-population Trump-voting counties kept their murder rates low in 2021, and some—such as Plumas, Shasta, and Colusa—experienced no murders at all that year. But in general, the trend of Republican voting counties in California out-murdering their Democratic-voting counterparts is not a new one.

The article then asks: "But Aren’t Republican Counties ‘Tough’ on Crime?"

Then noticing their high incarceration rates. "Of the counties with the top 10 incarceration rates, nine voted for Trump in 2020."

 

[lpetrich]

Then racial issues.

In most homicides, victim and killer are of the same race. According to FBI statistics from 2018, 81 percent of white murder victims nationwide were killed by other whites, while 89 percent of Black victims were slain by Black perpetrators. The numbers were generally similar to previous years.

Since the 1990s, according to CJCJ statistics, the white death rate from homicide has dropped sharply in California’s Democratic-voting counties—but not in the predominantly Republican counties. By 2020, the CJCJ reports, even with the overall spike in murders, homicide rates for whites in Republican counties were twice as high as in Democratic ones and were about the same as the homicide rate for people of color in blue counties. It appears that white people in Trump-voting counties simply kill each other at alarmingly high rates, and aren’t slowing down.

Then "Why Do ‘Tough on Crime’ Counties Have So Many Murders?"

Prop 47, passed in 2014, reclassified some felonies, mainly theft and drug crimes, as misdemeanors, allowing lighter sentences for offenders in those categories. The 2016 Prop 57 increased the chances of parole for inmates who were convicted of nonviolent felonies.

Without getting into the policy particulars of each law, one fact stands out. In the years since those laws were passed, overall crime in California has decreased, and violent crime has remained largely stable.

Crime in general has been declining since the early 1990's, from a peak in 1992. This fits in well with the leaded-gasoline theory of the increased criminality of the 1960's to 1980's.

There appears to be one other certainty: the “tough on crime” approach does not decrease crime or violent crime. A study by the Death Penalty Information Center using FBI crime data showed that the ultimate “tough on crime” policy, capital punishment, did nothing to reduce the exact crime it is designed to prevent—murder.

Studies have also shown that policies such as mass incarceration and stop-and-frisk—which allows police to detain and search people for little or no reason—result in no significant changes in crime rates one way or the other.

Poverty? "But even poverty does not offer a direct correlation with murder rates."

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The breakdown even falls into fishing competitions!

The competition in Cleveland was supposed to last two days but was cut down to just Friday because of bad weather. Fishermen in roughly 65 two-man teams started the day in a specific location on Lake Erie and had eight hours to catch the biggest set of five fish.

That was going to be Runyan and Cominsky, until Fischer pulled 10 weights totaling seven pounds out of their entry, the tournament director said. Plus, Fischer added, he found filets from other fish that had been stuffed down the walleyes’ throats to beef them up. Unlike weights, filets escape the notice of metal detectors.

 

[Elixir]

Someone who supports prosecuting violent crime is "pro-crime"???

Yes, unless the violence they prosecute is against property. Violence against people is always black-on-black and can be disregarded. Prosecuting that would be futile, and a waste of time.
In the ideal conservotard world though, property (or its proxy, money) wouldn’t just have the vote, it would have the ONLY vote.

 

[Derec]

Really? Do you have a single shred of evidence to support this claim?

It's an opinion, not a claim to a fact. What "shred of evidence" do I need for an opinion?

 

[Derec]

Being prohibited from leaving is never a comfortable position to be in.

There's that. It can still be too cushy or luxurious, even if you are not allowed to leave.

I suppose it's too much to expect an American to understand what "freedom" is, or why it's important.

Anti-American insults is all you have left, apparently.

 

[Derec]

Cushy prisons clearly lead to greater murder rates.

That kind of nonsense is what passes for discourse here now?
Nobody claimed anything of the sort. You are merely knocking down straw men of your own creation.

 

[Oleg]

There is no trait that "men" have that "women" do not.

So the disparity of the sexes in prision is due to systemic sexism?

It is in some respects utterly shocking how badly the US education system has failed some folks.

Larger quantities of representation of a trait in one population vs another do not make it such that one can assume a trait is present or absent on the basis of group membership except when the membership to the group is exactly possession of the trait.

Only from some mechanism with an  absolute implication of a trait may one make any kind of judgement about any given person on the basis of that mechanism.

As such it wouldn't matter if "men" commit more crimes than "women" in evaluating if someone will or has committed some crime. The only way to ascertain whether someone is a criminal is to look at whether they commit crimes. You will not find that out by looking in someone's pants, genetics, hormones or clothing unless any one of those is immediately a crime.

Assuming that you can make such ascertainments of people on the basis of their genitals or genetics or hormones or clothing is quite pointedly unethical sexism.

So why are more men in prison than women? Are there group differences?

Oleg, owing to your claimancy to a particular group, do you believe you belong in prison?

Men commit more crime than women. No matter what society or culture. Accepting that group differences exist is helpful in understanding why things happen.

 

[Derec]

Jean Valjean would disagree.

Jean Valjean lived approximately 2 centuries ago. He also is a fictional character.

If we go by the stats, it is Brazilians and South Africans that kill the most. Good luck with the "demographics" Venn Diagram there.

Brazil and RSA both have large populations of what we in the US would call "black" (both RSA and Brazil have a "mixed" category where I believe most of the US "one drop rule" blacks would be classified). So the hypothesis is not disproven.