Breakdown In Civil Order

[Jimmy Higgins]

Well, those graphs prove it. Poverty and minorities only exist in America.

Poverty does not cause crime.

Jean Valjean would disagree.

The comparision to other Anglo and European countries - or even to low-crime Asian countries - is misleading as these countries have different demograpics.

If we go by the stats, it is Brazilians and South Africans that kill the most. Good luck with the "demographics" Venn Diagram there.

 

[bilby]

Those demographics, you can't trust them. I mean, you wouldn't want your daughter to marry one of them demographics, would you? Don't get me wrong, I have a friend who's a demographic, so nobody can say i have anything against them.

 

[laughing dog]

Well, those graphs prove it. Poverty and minorities only exist in America.

Poverty does not cause crime. Asians are apparently not minorites. The charts simply show that demographics matter to homicide rates. In NYC, and the US generally, the homicide rate of one demographic pushes the number to crazy heights. The comparision to other Anglo and European countries - or even to low-crime Asian countries - is misleading as these countries have different demograpics.

Fascinating - apparently statistics only matter when they coincide with one's prior beliefs, otherwise they can be handwaved away.

 

[Hermit]

Oleg, show us how well you can research. Like show that you are better at researching than I am.

 List of U.S. states and territories by intentional homicide rate - even the lowest rate is higher than in NL or NO.
 List of countries by intentional homicide rate
Murder Rate by Country 2022

Canada, at 2.2 per 100,000, is lower than all but four US states and territories: NH 0.9, ME 1.6, ID 2.2, VT 2.2. Other Anglo or ex-Anglo countries: UK 1.2, Ireland 0.7, Australia 0.9, New Zealand 2.6.

Demographics matter.

https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/nypd/downloads/pdf/analysis_and_planning/year-end-2021-enforcement-report.pdf

New York City represents 2.7% of your country's population, and it is not representative of its ethnic makeup.

​	White​	Black​	Hispanic​
New York City​	30.9​	20.2​	28.7​
USA​	61.6​	12.4​	20.7​

Yes, black Americans are overrepresented among homicide offenders, but why do you wish to exclude them from the overall homicide rate unless you think they should be excluded on the grounds of being more murderous as a culture, ethnicity or race? You seem to be arguing that without them the "natural" homicide rate would be comparable to those of Norway or the Netherlands, which by the way, it is not.

As for the relationship between the level of income and the likelihood of becoming a criminal is indisputable. The less someone earns the more likely it is for becoming subject to correctional supervision. 2014 figures:

	Median annual incomes
​	Incarcerated people prior to incarceration​	​	​	Non-incarcerated people​	​
​	Men​	Women​	​	Men​	Women​
All​	$19,650.00​	$13,890.00​	​	$41,250.00​	$23,745.00​
Black​	$17,625.00​	$12,735.00​	​	$31,245.00​	$24,255.00​
Hispanic​	$19,740.00​	$11,820.00​	​	$30,000.00​	$15,000.00​
White​	$21,975.00​	$15,480.00​	​	$47,505.00​	$26,130.00​

 

[TSwizzle]

The city of brotherly love;

Philadelphia residents have decried a recent spate of violent crime that has seen more than 750 people shot since the end of May, as a series of high profile incidents have rocked the crime-ridden city. Mass looting and other brazen assaults have also been commonplace, such as one over the weekend that saw more than 100 children as young as 10 storm and ransack a Wawa convenience store.

Daily Mail

 

[Oleg]

You seem to be arguing that without them the "natural" homicide rate would be comparable to those of Norway or the Netherlands, which by the way, it is not.

Um, yes. That should be pretty obvious. Do you think Whites and Asians will keep up the homicide gap if young Black males give it a rest?

 

[Oleg]

As for the relationship between the level of income and the likelihood of becoming a criminal is indisputable. The less someone earns the more likely it is for becoming subject to correctional supervision.

That's weird. So there are poor women in the USA? Do they commit homicide at the same rate as men? If not, why not?

 

[laughing dog]

As for the relationship between the level of income and the likelihood of becoming a criminal is indisputable. The less someone earns the more likely it is for becoming subject to correctional supervision.

That's weird. So there are poor women in the USA? Do they commit homicide at the same rate as men? If not, why not?

There is a long established difference between crime rates by gender: women tend to commit crime a lower rates then men, especially violent crime. So the answer to your question is NO.

A more relevant and thoughtful question would be "Do poor women commit crime at the same rate as rich women?".

 

[Oleg]

As for the relationship between the level of income and the likelihood of becoming a criminal is indisputable. The less someone earns the more likely it is for becoming subject to correctional supervision.

That's weird. So there are poor women in the USA? Do they commit homicide at the same rate as men? If not, why not?

There is a long established difference between crime rates by gender: women tend to commit crime a lower rates then men, especially violent crime. So the answer to your question is NO.

A more relevant and thoughtful question would be "Do poor women commit crime at the same rate as rich women?".

Hang on. If povery causes a person to commite homicide, then there should be partity between the sexes. Without that parity, no causation.

 

[bilby]

If povery causes a person to commite homicide, then there should be partity between the sexes.

If poverty were the ONLY thing, yes.

As literally nobody is suggesting that it's the ONLY thing, your rebuttal is just a strawman argument, founded in an insanely simplistic view of the issue.

As usual.

 

[Hermit]

As for the relationship between the level of income and the likelihood of becoming a criminal is indisputable. The less someone earns the more likely it is for becoming subject to correctional supervision.

That's weird. So there are poor women in the USA? Do they commit homicide at the same rate as men? If not, why not?

You missed the obvious, even as I spelled it out to you.

the relationship between the level of income and the likelihood of becoming a criminal is indisputable. The less someone earns the more likely it is for becoming subject to correctional supervision.

It means that women, like all other demographic sectors, in higher income brackets are less likely to resort to committing crimes than women in lower income brackets. It's something all demographic sectors share. The facts are there.

	Median annual incomes
​	Incarcerated women prior to incarceration​	Non-incarcerated women​		Income differential
All women​	$13,890.00​	$23,745.00​		41.5%
Black women​	$12,735.00​	$24,255.00​		47.4%
Hispanic women​	$11,820.00​	$15,000.00​		21.2%
White women​	$15,480.00​	$26,130.00​		40.8%

 

[laughing dog]

As for the relationship between the level of income and the likelihood of becoming a criminal is indisputable. The less someone earns the more likely it is for becoming subject to correctional supervision.

That's weird. So there are poor women in the USA? Do they commit homicide at the same rate as men? If not, why not?

There is a long established difference between crime rates by gender: women tend to commit crime a lower rates then men, especially violent crime. So the answer to your question is NO.

A more relevant and thoughtful question would be "Do poor women commit crime at the same rate as rich women?".

Hang on. If povery causes a person to commite homicide, then there should be partity between the sexes. Without that parity, no causation.

That is extremely poor reasoning. If there already is no parity between the sexes in crime rates, why would anyone think the effect of poverty should cause parity?

 

[steve_bank]

In te area a black owned coffee shop has been vandalized multiple times. This time there were threats made to the owners and Nazi symbols painted on the business.

Could be Neo Nazi white supremacists or some jerk being a pain in the ass. Either way it is another data point on how order is breaking down.

Black-owned Shoreline coffee shop vandalized for third time within nine months

Black Coffee Northwest has been hit three times in nine months. Previously, vandals threw Molotov cocktails at the building and drew racist images on the walls.

www.king5.com

 

[Oleg]

If povery causes a person to commite homicide, then there should be partity between the sexes.

If poverty were the ONLY thing, yes.

As literally nobody is suggesting that it's the ONLY thing, your rebuttal is just a strawman argument, founded in an insanely simplistic view of the issue.

As usual.

If you concede it has little to no effect, then why raise the point at all?

 

[Oleg]

As for the relationship between the level of income and the likelihood of becoming a criminal is indisputable. The less someone earns the more likely it is for becoming subject to correctional supervision.

That's weird. So there are poor women in the USA? Do they commit homicide at the same rate as men? If not, why not?

There is a long established difference between crime rates by gender: women tend to commit crime a lower rates then men, especially violent crime. So the answer to your question is NO.

A more relevant and thoughtful question would be "Do poor women commit crime at the same rate as rich women?".

Hang on. If povery causes a person to commite homicide, then there should be partity between the sexes. Without that parity, no causation.

That is extremely poor reasoning. If there already is no parity between the sexes in crime rates, why would anyone think the effect of poverty should cause parity?

But why is there no parity between the sexes in crime rates? Could biology play a role?

 

[Jarhyn]

As for the relationship between the level of income and the likelihood of becoming a criminal is indisputable. The less someone earns the more likely it is for becoming subject to correctional supervision.

That's weird. So there are poor women in the USA? Do they commit homicide at the same rate as men? If not, why not?

There is a long established difference between crime rates by gender: women tend to commit crime a lower rates then men, especially violent crime. So the answer to your question is NO.

A more relevant and thoughtful question would be "Do poor women commit crime at the same rate as rich women?".

Hang on. If povery causes a person to commite homicide, then there should be partity between the sexes. Without that parity, no causation.

That is extremely poor reasoning. If there already is no parity between the sexes in crime rates, why would anyone think the effect of poverty should cause parity?

But why is there no parity between the sexes in crime rates? Could biology play a role?

You're not about to catch anyone here agreeing that people commit crimes because the happen to conform to some vague concept of "masculine" or "feminine", except perhaps those persons who, like you, are so not-even-wrong about sex that it's painful to watch.

Individual biology plays every role in every action by every living person.

Pretending that some concept of personal "sex attributes" causes crime is ignorant at best and wantonly destructive at worst.

There is no trait that "men" have that "women" do not. Instead, we must always evaluate each person on which traits they actually have, and the only way to ascertain that is to do individual measurement.

Knowing that "many" or "most" "men" have a trait does not tell you at all whether A man has A trait. You still have to ask and validate.

You can't just say "seems to be a man to me" and then jump to "process them as a criminal!"

 

[Politesse]

As for the relationship between the level of income and the likelihood of becoming a criminal is indisputable. The less someone earns the more likely it is for becoming subject to correctional supervision.

That's weird. So there are poor women in the USA? Do they commit homicide at the same rate as men? If not, why not?

You missed the obvious, even as I spelled it out to you.

the relationship between the level of income and the likelihood of becoming a criminal is indisputable. The less someone earns the more likely it is for becoming subject to correctional supervision.

It means that women, like all other demographic sectors, in higher income brackets are less likely to resort to committing crimes than women in lower income brackets. It's something all demographic sectors share. The facts are there.

	Median annual incomes
​	Incarcerated women prior to incarceration​	Non-incarcerated women​		Income differential
All women​	$13,890.00​	$23,745.00​		41.5%
Black women​	$12,735.00​	$24,255.00​		47.4%
Hispanic women​	$11,820.00​	$15,000.00​		21.2%
White women​	$15,480.00​	$26,130.00​		40.8%

Or rather, we ignore the crimes of the wealthy and obsess over the crimes of the poor.

 

[bilby]

If povery causes a person to commite homicide, then there should be partity between the sexes.

If poverty were the ONLY thing, yes.

As literally nobody is suggesting that it's the ONLY thing, your rebuttal is just a strawman argument, founded in an insanely simplistic view of the issue.

As usual.

If you concede it has little to no effect, then why raise the point at all?

I don't concede any such thing; Nor do I suggest, hint, or imply it.

And the point I raised is simply that you have made a childish error of reasoning. You are, to be blunt, both wrong, and stupidly wrong.

I raised this point in the hope that you might start to think more carefully before posting, and thereby either improve the quality or reduce the quantity of your contributions. It was, of course, a forlorn hope.

 

[laughing dog]

But why is there no parity between the sexes in crime rates? Could biology play a role?

Don't know why there is not parity between the sexes in crime rates. Biology could play a role. The point is that claiming that because the crime rates between poor men and poor women are not equal then poverty can be a cause of crime is an example of extremely poor reasoning.

Monocausal explanations for human behavior are typically doomed to failure because there are always multiple influences on human behavior.

 

[steve_bank]

There is whit collar crime and some of the worse have been prosecuted. High profile cases like Bernie Madoff.

White collar crimes are prosecuted all the time, but they do not get the attention community crime does.

White collar criminals, like Trump, are not holding up gas stations and here in Seattle pot shops.

Post Floyd and BLM Settle and Wa state made a knee jerk reaction to placte people. The result was ste law curtailing theability of polce to pursue criminals and even question a suspects person near a crime scence.

The reult unless it is kidnapping or a crmie like murder police can not pursue at high speed. So now when a cop pulls up behind you all's you have to do is hit the gas.

Firefighters and EMTs in Seattle are under attack. People steal equipment from fire enginess and EMT vehicles. Rocks thrown. Streets blaocked.

Firefighters fighting a fire assaulted.

More data points.

That blacks may be arrested and prsecued more than whites, and statistcally blacks are more likely to get injured by police than other groups is established. But the solution is not broadly restraining police.

For a long time in Seattle it was defund the police driven by the city council. Now it is neighborhoods including minorities saying where are the police, we need more police.

Lower income people have trouble making bail so the solution was to get rid of bail below a threshold. Predictably shop lifters get causght, walk out of jail, and shoplift again.

The best approach is developing in Seattle. Put money into youth diversion programs. As soon as I was old enough I had part tome jobs. The best thing to do is create jobs for kids in the summer. It will be a lot cheaper than more jail space.

When I was growing up in the summer there was always an organized place to go with adult supervsion.