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Breakdown In Civil Order

Angry Floof

Tricksy Leftits
Staff member
So of course that video inspires right wing boners, but they are totally wrong in their assumptions about both the incident and whatever laws and policies might apply, as usual.

You really know how to take the fun out of making shit up about "the libs". :mad:

:rofl:

Thanks, AF. :applause:

You're welcome. I also want to add that CA law does not require security guards to stand back and watch. Owners have the right to confront thieves and use force. So that's one right wing lie to extinguish. There may be details that prevent certain kinds of violence used to stop a thief, but no requirement to avoid all confrontation or whatever bogus shit right wingers like to spread.
 
Last edited:

Politesse

Sapere aude
I realize of course that Derec, Tswizzle, etc have no intention of starting actual dialogues about crime and punishment when they share the latest viral videos, but I have a reading recommendation for anyone else curious about what goes on once the cameras stop rolling. It isn't actually true that California or any other state simply tolerates serial shoplifters. It is more than possible to prosecute shoplifting cases that are indicative of a permanent cycle or that result in significant loss. The question is how to address shoplifting, not whether to. Stores themselves don't want daily bloody shootouts on their front porch a la Republican fantasy-land, not in "red states" nor in "blue states". The best practice is to document the crime carefully, and with a cool head, begin an investigation into what happened and who is responsible:

Here's what happened after that viral S.F. Walgreens shoplifting video ended

As for whether there is truly a shoplifting spree in California, there of course is not; shoplifting incidents have been steadily decreasing in frequency relative to state population since 1989. We just have more people, and more stores, than an economically depressed state like Mississippi might have, so you're more likely to see exciting incidents like the one in the video occur here.

The New York Times fabricates a nonexistent shoplifting wave in San Francisco, then wrongly blames it on criminal justice reforms and the city’s supposed soft-on-crime image

Could not read the first link even in incognito. Got a summary?

Oh, paywall? It works for me.

Essentially, conservatives mounted a media frenzy based on the original Walgreens video, implying that a.) this was something that happened all the time in SF, rather than being the action of a singular organized shoplifting ring that had popped up, and b.) implying that the police had done nothing nor intended to do anything about it due to our supposedly lax laws. Neither is true, as the criminal who organized it was identified through the video, arrested, and is currently serving out his sentence.
 

Politesse

Sapere aude
:rofl:

Thanks, AF. :applause:

You're welcome. I also want to add that CA law does not require security guards to stand back and watch. Owners have the right to confront thieves, but they are not required to by law. So that's one right wing lie to extinguish. There may be details that prevent certain kinds of violence used to stop a thief, but no requirement to avoid all confrontation or whatever bogus shit right wingers like to spread.

Well, it's true that you can't use disproportionate violence; unlike in some other states, you can wind up in severe trouble if you shoot an unarmed person dead as they're stealing a TV.
 

Angry Floof

Tricksy Leftits
Staff member
:rofl:

Thanks, AF. :applause:

You're welcome. I also want to add that CA law does not require security guards to stand back and watch. Owners have the right to confront thieves, but they are not required to by law. So that's one right wing lie to extinguish. There may be details that prevent certain kinds of violence used to stop a thief, but no requirement to avoid all confrontation or whatever bogus shit right wingers like to spread.

Well, it's true that you can't use disproportionate violence; unlike in some other states, you can wind up in severe trouble if you shoot an unarmed person dead as they're stealing a TV.

Yeah, I mentioned that there were particulars as to what kinds of violence or aggressive actions they can take legally, but there's no law that prevents security guards from taking physical action.

What that guard did in the video was due to his company's training, not CA law. I don't know if he's a Walgreen's employee, but likely he works for a security company that hires people out, and their training and policies do dictate non-violent actions: presence, then command are the usual steps to deter a thief, and then observe and record if the theft continues.

Edit:
CA law allows shopkeepers to use force and to detain: https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/defense/laws/shopkeepers-privilege/
 

Elixir

Content Thief
There's something particularly galling about letting a thief walk out with a TV.
You just KNOW, that that evening, at some point the thief will be watching security cam footage of himself stealing the TV, right there on the very TV he stole.
Probably better to shoot him and take your chances than to put up with that kind of humiliation.
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
As for whether there is truly a shoplifting spree in California, there of course is not; shoplifting incidents have been steadily decreasing in frequency relative to state population since 1989. We just have more people, and more stores, than an economically depressed state like Mississippi might have, so you're more likely to see exciting incidents like the one in the video occur here.

The New York Times fabricates a nonexistent shoplifting wave in San Francisco, then wrongly blames it on criminal justice reforms and the city’s supposed soft-on-crime image

Have shoplifting incidents declined, or have stores simply reported fewer incidents? Note that a store can't report shoplifting incidents when they simply find shrinkage--there's no way of knowing how much shoplifting was involved (10 widgets are gone--10 shoplifters each took a widget, or 1 shoplifter took 10?) or if it was internal theft or even not a crime at all. (The item was broken and discarded by someone who didn't keep detailed enough records, or the clerk made a mistake in ringing it up.)

If stores are less willing to confront shoplifters, "shoplifting" will decline--whether it really did or not.
 

TV and credit cards

Veteran Member
Have shoplifting incidents declined, or have stores simply reported fewer incidents? Note that a store can't report shoplifting incidents when they simply find shrinkage--there's no way of knowing how much shoplifting was involved (10 widgets are gone--10 shoplifters each took a widget, or 1 shoplifter took 10?) or if it was internal theft or even not a crime at all. (The item was broken and discarded by someone who didn't keep detailed enough records, or the clerk made a mistake in ringing it up.)

If stores are less willing to confront shoplifters, "shoplifting" will decline--whether it really did or not.

Support?

I’d be more inclined to think shoplifting increased in 2020 due to the acceptability of mask wearing.

It plays well on the local news to show the most brazen shoplifters, the shameless who do not care who sees them doing their illegal deeds. We’re it not for video and it was simply a writeup of police reports in the local newspaper sandwiched between a broken window and an abandoned car, we’d think nothing of it. But now we have the video and if it’s brown people, oh boy, that oughta gets folks’ dander up.

Men shoplift more than women. Hispanic women shoplift more than white women. Men generally shoplift things they can sell. Women generally shoplift household items. 35-54 is the most prevalent age group of shoplifters. I couldn’t get ahold of the actual numbers as I lack membership.

My ex worked loss prevention at a retail store on a military base. Her clients were mostly middle aged women. That would stand to reason given the merchandise sold and that there was family housing on base. But she has caught them all, from young guys in uniform to the base commander’s wife.

Watching juveniles and Blacks in the store isn’t going to pay. Watching people who are looking around without looking at the merchandise will.
 

Swammerdami

Squadron Leader
Staff member
Could not read the first link even in incognito. Got a summary?
I copied the URL into a browser with Javascript disabled, and read it there OK.

I run Firefox with Javascript on, and Chrome with it disabled. (I don't know how to have TWO instances of the same browser. Better yet would be to customize the browser so Javascript is disabled only at certain sites.)
 

lpetrich

Contributor
Two instances? To do what you want to do will require access to separate configuration files. That may be hard to do without something like installing another OS or another copy of one's current one, and then running that additional one with a virtualizer like Parallels.

That aside, I have four browsers: Firefox, Chrome, Safari, and Opera.
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Could not read the first link even in incognito. Got a summary?
I copied the URL into a browser with Javascript disabled, and read it there OK.

I run Firefox with Javascript on, and Chrome with it disabled. (I don't know how to have TWO instances of the same browser. Better yet would be to customize the browser so Javascript is disabled only at certain sites.)

The NoScript plugin allows you to selectively enable or disable Javascript by site.

IMO the internet is practically unusable without a good adblocker and NoScript as a minimum requirement.
 

Jarhyn

Contributor
Could not read the first link even in incognito. Got a summary?
I copied the URL into a browser with Javascript disabled, and read it there OK.

I run Firefox with Javascript on, and Chrome with it disabled. (I don't know how to have TWO instances of the same browser. Better yet would be to customize the browser so Javascript is disabled only at certain sites.)

Right click on tab, open in new window. Control-shift click on link may also do it. I know "new window" is also a right click context menu for the links themselves usually.
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
Have shoplifting incidents declined, or have stores simply reported fewer incidents? Note that a store can't report shoplifting incidents when they simply find shrinkage--there's no way of knowing how much shoplifting was involved (10 widgets are gone--10 shoplifters each took a widget, or 1 shoplifter took 10?) or if it was internal theft or even not a crime at all. (The item was broken and discarded by someone who didn't keep detailed enough records, or the clerk made a mistake in ringing it up.)

If stores are less willing to confront shoplifters, "shoplifting" will decline--whether it really did or not.

Support?

I’d be more inclined to think shoplifting increased in 2020 due to the acceptability of mask wearing.

It plays well on the local news to show the most brazen shoplifters, the shameless who do not care who sees them doing their illegal deeds. We’re it not for video and it was simply a writeup of police reports in the local newspaper sandwiched between a broken window and an abandoned car, we’d think nothing of it. But now we have the video and if it’s brown people, oh boy, that oughta gets folks’ dander up.

Men shoplift more than women. Hispanic women shoplift more than white women. Men generally shoplift things they can sell. Women generally shoplift household items. 35-54 is the most prevalent age group of shoplifters. I couldn’t get ahold of the actual numbers as I lack membership.

My ex worked loss prevention at a retail store on a military base. Her clients were mostly middle aged women. That would stand to reason given the merchandise sold and that there was family housing on base. But she has caught them all, from young guys in uniform to the base commander’s wife.

Watching juveniles and Blacks in the store isn’t going to pay. Watching people who are looking around without looking at the merchandise will.

I think you're missing my point.

Stores will only go to the effort of catching shoplifters if there is a reasonable chance of prosecution. Otherwise, what do they gain by trying? If loss prevention just means the person has to try elsewhere but suffers no consequences it's not economic to do so. Thus reports will decline.
 

TV and credit cards

Veteran Member
Have shoplifting incidents declined, or have stores simply reported fewer incidents? Note that a store can't report shoplifting incidents when they simply find shrinkage--there's no way of knowing how much shoplifting was involved (10 widgets are gone--10 shoplifters each took a widget, or 1 shoplifter took 10?) or if it was internal theft or even not a crime at all. (The item was broken and discarded by someone who didn't keep detailed enough records, or the clerk made a mistake in ringing it up.)

If stores are less willing to confront shoplifters, "shoplifting" will decline--whether it really did or not.

Support?

I’d be more inclined to think shoplifting increased in 2020 due to the acceptability of mask wearing.

It plays well on the local news to show the most brazen shoplifters, the shameless who do not care who sees them doing their illegal deeds. We’re it not for video and it was simply a writeup of police reports in the local newspaper sandwiched between a broken window and an abandoned car, we’d think nothing of it. But now we have the video and if it’s brown people, oh boy, that oughta gets folks’ dander up.

Men shoplift more than women. Hispanic women shoplift more than white women. Men generally shoplift things they can sell. Women generally shoplift household items. 35-54 is the most prevalent age group of shoplifters. I couldn’t get ahold of the actual numbers as I lack membership.

My ex worked loss prevention at a retail store on a military base. Her clients were mostly middle aged women. That would stand to reason given the merchandise sold and that there was family housing on base. But she has caught them all, from young guys in uniform to the base commander’s wife.

Watching juveniles and Blacks in the store isn’t going to pay. Watching people who are looking around without looking at the merchandise will.

I think you're missing my point.

Stores will only go to the effort of catching shoplifters if there is a reasonable chance of prosecution. Otherwise, what do they gain by trying? If loss prevention just means the person has to try elsewhere but suffers no consequences it's not economic to do so. Thus reports will decline.

I took your point. I would even agree with you. I was just wondering if it was anything more than a notion you had.
Time was, in CA, if store security caught someone, they would send out a civil demand fine for a couple hundred bucks. I suppose that’s a thing of the past.
 

KeepTalking

Code Monkey
Have shoplifting incidents declined, or have stores simply reported fewer incidents? Note that a store can't report shoplifting incidents when they simply find shrinkage--there's no way of knowing how much shoplifting was involved (10 widgets are gone--10 shoplifters each took a widget, or 1 shoplifter took 10?) or if it was internal theft or even not a crime at all. (The item was broken and discarded by someone who didn't keep detailed enough records, or the clerk made a mistake in ringing it up.)

If stores are less willing to confront shoplifters, "shoplifting" will decline--whether it really did or not.

Support?

I’d be more inclined to think shoplifting increased in 2020 due to the acceptability of mask wearing.

It plays well on the local news to show the most brazen shoplifters, the shameless who do not care who sees them doing their illegal deeds. We’re it not for video and it was simply a writeup of police reports in the local newspaper sandwiched between a broken window and an abandoned car, we’d think nothing of it. But now we have the video and if it’s brown people, oh boy, that oughta gets folks’ dander up.

Men shoplift more than women. Hispanic women shoplift more than white women. Men generally shoplift things they can sell. Women generally shoplift household items. 35-54 is the most prevalent age group of shoplifters. I couldn’t get ahold of the actual numbers as I lack membership.

My ex worked loss prevention at a retail store on a military base. Her clients were mostly middle aged women. That would stand to reason given the merchandise sold and that there was family housing on base. But she has caught them all, from young guys in uniform to the base commander’s wife.

Watching juveniles and Blacks in the store isn’t going to pay. Watching people who are looking around without looking at the merchandise will.

I think you're missing my point.

Stores will only go to the effort of catching shoplifters if there is a reasonable chance of prosecution. Otherwise, what do they gain by trying? If loss prevention just means the person has to try elsewhere but suffers no consequences it's not economic to do so. Thus reports will decline.

But that contradicts what actually happened in this case, so you are just speculating what will happen in other cases with no apparent basis for that speculation.
 

Cheerful Charlie

Contributor
Could not read the first link even in incognito. Got a summary?
I copied the URL into a browser with Javascript disabled, and read it there OK.

I run Firefox with Javascript on, and Chrome with it disabled. (I don't know how to have TWO instances of the same browser. Better yet would be to customize the browser so Javascript is disabled only at certain sites.)

Privacy Badger does this. You can set it up to allow or disallow things like JavaScript on a per site basis. It is an extension for browsers.
 

lpetrich

Contributor
Texas man, 24, admits shooting at Minneapolis police station during riot | MPR News
A man who had been part of a far-right group that wants to foment a civil war admitted in federal court Thursday he traveled to Minneapolis from the San Antonio area to sow chaos after the police murder of George Floyd.

Ivan Harrison Hunter, 24, of Boerne, Texas, pleaded guilty to a single count of rioting. The charge carries a maximum prison term of five years.

...
Hunter admitted that he fired 13 rounds from an AK-47-style rifle into the 3rd precinct police station on May 28, 2020, as other rioters looted and set fire to the building after police evacuated. No one was struck by the gunfire.

After shooting at the building, Hunter was recorded on video high-fiving another person and yelling "Justice for Floyd!"
Far-Right Boogaloo Boi Admits Posing As BLM Activist While Shooting At Police Station During Floyd Protest - Joe.My.God.

Karen Valentine C on Twitter: "@JoeMyGod @SweGringo And another one https://t.co/nevNk66iS3" / Twitter - "Meet Branden Michael Wolfe the man charged with setting fire to the 3rd Precinct Police Station in Minneapolis, MN. And tried to blame it on BLM."

Suspect in officers' killings tied to Boogaloo group: prosecutors - Los Angeles Times
 

thebeave

Veteran Member

The entire Louis Vitton store was cleaned out of merchandise. For those of you who don't keep up, LV is a high end store. This is not a case of people needing to clothe their children! Its starting to look like the people in charge in SF are getting fed up with this shit. Even Willie Brown aka Kamala Harris' ex-"boyfriend" is chiming in with his disgust at the situation. The cops took real action this time, and Chesea Boudin is in the midst of a recall campaign. Hopefully, change is coming....
 

Politesse

Sapere aude
Despite what your "news sources" may have told you, mass theft like this has never been legal or tolerated in San Francisco. Shoplifting rings like this have been dealt with before, and these people will eventually be caught as well.
 

thebeave

Veteran Member
Despite what your "news sources" may have told you, mass theft like this has never been legal or tolerated in San Francisco. Shoplifting rings like this have been dealt with before, and these people will eventually be caught as well.
My "news sources" for this post are channel 11 NBC on my TV. Neither I or the "news sources" said it was ever legal. As far as tolerated, much mass theft IS tolerated, at least up to <$1000 in product value. Let's hope they do catch these thieves, and things improve for SF. I would like to see London Breed make some progress on this nonsense. I had high hopes for her coming in, but so far, cracking down on the crime seems to be moving a bit slow.
 

Politesse

Sapere aude
Perhaps you can point to an affluent Republican city, equivalent to San Francisco in wealth and wealth disparity, that has no trouble with shoplifting rings. Oh, wait, you can't. Because there are no affluent Republican cities.
 

Politesse

Sapere aude
I have yet to see a concrete, plausible Republican plan for how to end the end practice of shoplifting.
Actually prosecute shoplifters.

And get rid of pro-crime DAs like Chesa.
Okay, so we send police to guard every store, and every accused shoplifter stands trial for a crime. If found guilty, every shoplifter is charged with a misdemeanor and chooses between six months in jail or a $1000 fine (the current maximum penalty for the crime). Then, somehow, shoplifting never happens again.

Is that the plan?

I don't count "elect a Republican" as a plan, grasping at power for power's sake is your party's only real goal under the Trump regime and everyone knows that. But I'm more concerned with how the party actually wants to run things. I want to know what the proposed policy of your preferred replacement would be if I'm going to vote to displace the DA. Who are you nominating, and what would they do?
 

Derec

Contributor
Then, somehow, shoplifting never happens again.
The goal is never for crime to "never happen again" but rather to reduce it. By actually prosecuting criminals there is a deterrence that simply does not exist when shoplifting is a virtually risk-free way to make a bunch of money.
 

Politesse

Sapere aude
Then, somehow, shoplifting never happens again.
The goal is never for crime to "never happen again" but rather to reduce it. By actually prosecuting criminals there is a deterrence that simply does not exist when shoplifting is a virtually risk-free way to make a bunch of money.
So the plan is:

No additional police are involved, but every accused shoplifter stands trial for a crime. If found guilty, every shoplifter is charged with a misdemeanor and chooses between six months in jail or a $1000 fine (the current maximum penalty for the crime). Then, somehow, shoplifting is reduced slightly.

Yes?
 

ZiprHead

Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
Ron Johnson’s misleading citation of data to back his ‘concern’ about BLM protesters

"Out of 7,750 protests last summer associated with BLM and Antifa, 570 turned into violent riots that killed 25 people and caused $1- $2 billion of property damage. That’s why I would have been more concerned.”

— Sen. Ron Johnson (R-Wis.), in a statement, March 13
While he did not identify the source of his information in his statement, in a March 15 Wall Street Journal op-ed defending his remarks, Johnson confirmed that first set of numbers came from a study by the Armed Conflict Location & Event Data Project (ACLED), a nonprofit data collection, analysis and crisis mapping project. The property damage figures are from a different source.
...
“The specific ‘570’ number he referred to was the total number of all violent or destructive demonstrations recorded in the U.S. between May and August 2020, not just events that may have been linked to the Black Lives Matter movement,” Jones said. “Ultimately, ACLED recorded more than 10,300 demonstrations associated with the BLM movement in the U.S. during all of last year. It was an overwhelmingly peaceful movement: The vast majority of events — 94 percent — involved no violent or destructive activity.”

(Note that Johnson was using an outdated figure of 7,750 protests.)

Johnson jumped to the conclusion that the violent riots were the fault of BLM or antifa protesters. But that’s not the case either. ACLED’s data does not say that at all. In fact, the violence may have been more the result of police behavior than the actions of demonstrators. Thus it is misleading to frame all of these events as “BLM riots,” Jones said.

“Due to methodological and source information constraints, ACLED does not systematically code the perpetrator or instigator in events that do turn violent or destructive, so it would be inaccurate to say that the remainder were ‘BLM riots,’ ” Jones said. “ACLED data indicate that BLM-linked demonstrations faced much higher levels of police intervention and force than other types of demonstrations, for example, and in many of these cases police took a heavy-handed approach to break up the protests, prompting clashes with demonstrators and escalating the events into violence. Additionally, in some cases, violent or destructive behavior may have broken out as a result of aggressive intervention by counterdemonstrators or nonstate actors like militia groups, and BLM-linked demonstrations were also targeted in dozens of car-ramming attacks throughout the year.”

ACLED also recorded in 2020 that more than 2,350 right-wing demonstrations took place across more than 1,070 locations in all 50 states and Washington, D.C. But the police response was different.

“Over 9% of all BLM-linked demonstrations — or nearly one in 10 events — were met with intervention by police or other authorities, compared to just 4% of right-wing demonstrations,” a February ACLED report said. “When responding to BLM-linked demonstrations, authorities used force more than 51% of the time, compared to just 33% for right-wing demonstrations.”

A similar issue exists with Johnson’s citation of 25 deaths from the riots. That number comes from a Guardian analysis of ACLED’s database as of October, which found that at least 11 Americans were killed while participating in political demonstrations and another 14 have died in other incidents linked to political unrest.

“The [25] figure includes the Kyle Rittenhouse shootings, for example, as well as a shooting classified as an act of ‘violent far-right’ domestic terrorism by the Center for Strategic and International Studies,” Jones noted. “So it is incorrect to say that ‘BLM and antifa … riots … killed 25 people.’ ”

Another one of the deaths was actually at a “patriot rally,” not a BLM event. “Lee Keltner, a navy veteran who made custom western hats, was shot after a ‘patriot rally’ in Denver on 10 October,” the Guardian reported. “Video and photographs of the incident appear to show Keltner slapping a security guard for a local news crew, who responds by pulling out a gun and shooting him.”

Some demonstrators died when cars drove through or rammed into crowds of BLM protesters. “Summer Taylor, a Black Lives Matter protester who worked in a veterinary clinic, was killed in such an incident in Seattle,” the Guardian said. “So was Robert Forbes, a black protester from Bakersfield whose sister recalled him demonstrating decades earlier over the brutal police beating of Rodney King. In St Louis, Barry Perkins, a father of two, was killed after being dragged and run over by a FedEx truck during a protest in May.”

The list of 25 deaths also includes two California law enforcement officers killed by an alleged anti-government “boogaloo” extremist.

In other words, Johnson carelessly suggests the BLM and antifa demonstrations are the cause of 25 deaths, but the list cites numerous examples of deaths linked to far-right actions.
 

thebeave

Veteran Member
Holy Crap, I missed one from last night. This time a Nordstrum store in Walnut Creek, just a few miles from the Concord event. This is getting way out of control!

 

Derec

Contributor
“So it is incorrect to say that ‘BLM and antifa … riots … killed 25 people.’ ”
What is true that if there hadn't been months of #BLM/Antifa rioting those people would be alive. Rittenhouse for example would not have had to defend himself if not for Kenosha rioting, looting and burning.

Some demonstrators died when cars drove through or rammed into crowds of BLM protesters. “Summer Taylor, a Black Lives Matter protester who worked in a veterinary clinic, was killed in such an incident in Seattle,” the Guardian said.
The driver wasn't a right-winger though. He isn't even white - he is a black man from Eritrea and he maintains it was an accident.
Dawit Kelete: Accused driver pleads not guilty in death of I-5 protester

What this shows though is the danger and stupidity of blocking an interstate highway for a protest.

“So was Robert Forbes, a black protester from Bakersfield whose sister recalled him demonstrating decades earlier over the brutal police beating of Rodney King.
What evidence is there that he was targeted or that the driver was a right-winger? Just being run over proves jack-shit, other than that it is dangerous to play in the street.
That In St Louis, Barry Perkins, a father of two, was killed after being dragged and run over by a FedEx truck during a protest in May.”
Also not a "right-wing action". What happened was that Berry Perkins and his #BLM buddies were looting the FedEx truck and Berry was
accidentally run over when the truck tried to drive away. No truck looting, no dead Barry. He can't blame anybody but himself.

The list of 25 deaths also includes two California law enforcement officers killed by an alleged anti-government “boogaloo” extremist.
Link to that case? I am not convinced that (unlike Proud Boys) the Boogaloos are even a real group. Even their name sound unlikely for a real group as opposed to some kind of parody.

In other words, Johnson carelessly suggests the BLM and antifa demonstrations are the cause of 25 deaths, but the list cites numerous examples of deaths linked to far-right actions.
And yet the examples listed by the article do not prove to be "far-right actions".

Note that even in cases where people were not directly killed by #BLMers, the riots #BLMers started created the dangerous situation that led to loss of life.

Also, the writer neglects to mention cases where #BLMers directly killed people. What about Secoriea Turner, the 8 year old girl murdered by #BLMers who took over the site of the Atlanta Wendy's they burned down? Or David Dorn, a retired police captain murdered in St. Louis by a #BLM rioter. Among others.
 

Politesse

Sapere aude
Holy Crap, I missed one from last night. This time a Nordstrum store in Walnut Creek, just a few miles from the Concord event. This is getting way out of control!

Yeah, I was pretty shocked by that one. I happen to know the store in question pretty well, I often used their bathroom when I was working next door at a popcorn stand during my teenage years. Horrying assault, dozens of people involved with serious injuries committed on the staff. Could easily have been me, a few years ago.

That said, the police arrested three people at the scene, at gunpoint, and are urgently hunting down the rest. Dozens of police units responded, the first arriving less than two minutes after the first emergency call. Those found are going to jail for years, not months, on account of the severity of their crime which goes well beyond mere shoplifting. Just what more do you want them to do, execute the offenders in the street like Russian mafia?
 

Politesse

Sapere aude
No additional police are involved,
Says who? More police would be good. As would changing the laws by repealing prop 47.
Okay, so you want to have "more police" (how many, in what departments, and how they should be deployed?) and the repeal of Prop 47. Every accused shoplifter stands trial for a crime. If found guilty, every shoplifter is charged with a misdemeanor and chooses between six months in jail or a $1000 fine (the current maximum penalty for the crime). Then, somehow, shoplifting is reduced slightly.

Is this correct?
 

Politesse

Sapere aude
Then, somehow, shoplifting is reduced slightly.
It would be reduced more than slightly due to deterrence. Especially if the law changes so that felony limits are lowered.
Ah, so you additionally want to manipulate the law so that shoplifting less than $1000 is considered a felony rather than a misdemeanor?

What is your evidence that your incredibly expensive policy proposals would control shoplifting at all, let alone more than slightly?
 

ZiprHead

Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
The list of 25 deaths also includes two California law enforcement officers killed by an alleged anti-government “boogaloo” extremist.
Link to that case? I am not convinced that (unlike Proud Boys) the Boogaloos are even a real group. Even their name sound unlikely for a real group as opposed to some kind of parody.
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_boogaloo_killings

In late May and early June 2020, two ambush-style attacks occurred against security personnel and law enforcement officers in California. The attacks left two dead and injured three others.

The attacks began on May 29, when a drive-by shooting occurred in front of a federal courthouse in Oakland, resulting in the death of a security officer contracted with the Federal Protective Service. Over a week later on June 6, Santa Cruz County sheriff's deputies were shot at and also attacked with improvised explosive devices; one of them died as a result.

U.S. Air Force sergeant Steven Carrillo was arrested soon after the second attack. A second suspect, Robert Justus, surrendered to authorities five days later. The FBI indicated that Carrillo was associated with the boogaloo movement, a loosely organized American far-right anti-government extremist movement whose participants say they are preparing for a second civil war.[1][2][3] Carrillo used the George Floyd protests as a cover to attack police officers, according to the FBI.[4] A white van owned by Carrillo contained a ballistic vest with a patch bearing boogaloo symbolism. Carrillo is alleged to have written "boog" and the phrase "I became unreasonable" (a popular meme among boogaloo groups) in his own blood on the hood of a vehicle he hijacked.[5] According to federal authorities, the suspects were motivated by the boogaloo movement's ideology, and allegedly intended to spread its extremist views and start a civil war.[6][7] During his arraignment, Carrillo wore a face mask with the words 'We the people,' written in marker, along with initials 'BLM' - for 'Black Lives Matter' - and 'Portland, Kenosha, George Floyd and Breonna Taylor.' [8]
 

Jarhyn

Contributor
Then, somehow, shoplifting is reduced slightly.
It would be reduced more than slightly due to deterrence. Especially if the law changes so that felony limits are lowered.
Ah, so you additionally want to manipulate the law so that shoplifting less than $1000 is considered a felony rather than a misdemeanor?

What is your evidence that your incredibly expensive policy proposals would control shoplifting at all, let alone more than slightly?
Well it would certainly make for an excellent social geometry for use in a fucked up dystopian setting?

If this is how you think people should be able to treat others for "minor violations" like stealing some cheap shit off a shelf (not even "grand theft", which is it's own thing!), I wonder how he thinks it won't be similarly easy for whatever fascist regime could do that to people to make a crime of one of his negatively viewed behaviors...

Oh, they never think that they're going to be the target at some point. No, never them.
 

Politesse

Sapere aude
The same cell (presumably) hit the Southland Mall in Hayward last night. While I do not accept the dystopian Singapore-style "solutions" proposed by the right, I've got to admit that this anarchic crime activity has me feeling pretty anxious. I suspect we are dealing less with an organized crime unit like a mafia, and more a diffuse internet-fueled avenue for crimes of opportunity in which disenfranchised people with access to the right circles of communication can dip in or out of participation as they feel, thus making them very difficult to collectively hunt down. Their willingness to commit casual acts of violence en route to their goal calls "Fight Club" to mind, not in a good way. We can point fingers to the Left or Right all we like, but I think it is a fact that civil order is fracturing in this country to some degree. Riots every summer, hate crimes every winter, anarchic voices compromising the partisan structure of the goverment at both extremes. Not just in San Francisco by any means, but we will always be high on the list of targets, as long as this is where a siginificant pool of the national wealth is concentrating. And displacing the wealth would just displace the problems. Texas is getting happily high on the new business teat these days, but they're doing as badly as the South Bay did in the 90s when it comes to preparing for the long term consequences of a tech boom; they too will start to see incidents like this happening with greater and greater frequency as their population and profits boom, and they are if anything even less prepared than we were.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Louis Vutton store was ransacked by over a dozen people, with over $1,000 in merchandise stolen, with an MSRP value of around $120,000.

Okay, I did a tiny bit of research and it seems that LV actually isn't made in tiny countries by children. But that ruins the humor.
 

TSwizzle

Contributor
You don’t think the policies in San Francisco have anything to do with it. Interesting.
I have yet to see a concrete, plausible Republican plan for how to end the end practice of shoplifting.
Neither have I but I don't think ending the practice of shoplifting is achievable. But what we do need is a reduction in cases where emboldened shoplifters just walk into a store take what they want and likely suffer no consequences. These incidents are becoming more frequent and more brazen. It is amusing to me that authorities are more concerned about preventing unmasked or unvaccinated people visiting stores, in LA County at least.
 
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