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Breakdown In Civil Order

Politesse

Sapere aude
You don’t think the policies in San Francisco have anything to do with it. Interesting.
I have yet to see a concrete, plausible Republican plan for how to end the end practice of shoplifting.
Neither have I but I don't think ending the practice of shoplifting is achievable. But what we do need is a reduction in cases where emboldened shoplifters just walk into a store take what they want and likely suffer no consequences. These incidents are becoming more frequent and more brazen. It is amusing to me that authorities are more concerned about preventing unmasked or unvaccinated people visiting stores, in LA County at least.
The "no consequences" thing is rightwing bullshit, though. Prop 47 doesn't protect armed gangs like this in any way.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
You don’t think the policies in San Francisco have anything to do with it. Interesting.
I have yet to see a concrete, plausible Republican plan for how to end the end practice of shoplifting.
Neither have I but I don't think ending the practice of shoplifting is achievable. But what we do need is a reduction in cases where emboldened shoplifters just walk into a store take what they want and likely suffer no consequences. These incidents are becoming more frequent and more brazen.
You mean access to brazen shop lifting videos is easier these days.
 

TSwizzle

Contributor
You don’t think the policies in San Francisco have anything to do with it. Interesting.
I have yet to see a concrete, plausible Republican plan for how to end the end practice of shoplifting.
Neither have I but I don't think ending the practice of shoplifting is achievable. But what we do need is a reduction in cases where emboldened shoplifters just walk into a store take what they want and likely suffer no consequences. These incidents are becoming more frequent and more brazen.
You mean access to brazen shop lifting videos is easier these days.

Bore off Jimmy.
 
I have a feeling that providing the homeless with free first-come-first-serve dorms would be cheaper than the criminal justice costs resulting from not providing this amenity, but that is just an idea.

Prisons are just homeless shelters with guards and free healthcare. They are probably more expensive than just letting the same people have a place to sleep. It seems a little bit ass backwards to wait for them to commit a crime before giving them a bed.
 

TomC

Veteran Member
Prisons are just homeless shelters with guards and free healthcare. They are probably more expensive than just letting the same people have a place to sleep.
No, really they're not.
I cannot imagine why you think this. Have you ever truly known anyone who did time in prison?
Tom
 

Politesse

Sapere aude
I have a feeling that providing the homeless with free first-come-first-serve dorms would be cheaper than the criminal justice costs resulting from not providing this amenity, but that is just an idea.
Absolutely, because prisoners have certain rights and a minimum standard of care, however dismal those standards may be. The homeless are owed little by the government, excepting emergency medical care.

That said, I would be surprised if many of those involved in this shoplifting ring were homeless.
 
I have a feeling that providing the homeless with free first-come-first-serve dorms would be cheaper than the criminal justice costs resulting from not providing this amenity, but that is just an idea.
Absolutely, because prisoners have certain rights and a minimum standard of care, however dismal those standards may be. The homeless are owed little by the government, excepting emergency medical care.

That said, I would be surprised if many of those involved in this shoplifting ring were homeless.
I just figure that giving them a bunk would be cheaper.

 
Prisons are just homeless shelters with guards and free healthcare. They are probably more expensive than just letting the same people have a place to sleep.
No, really they're not.
I cannot imagine why you think this. Have you ever truly known anyone who did time in prison?
Tom
I like to live in a world in my imagination where our prisons were created by people that were actually rational.
 
I like to live in a world in my imagination
I've noticed that about you.
Tom
FYIAD.
If I cared I'd Google the meaning of FYIAD.
Oh well.
Tom
16d408443988258cff8b17fa64959b2372a21a3759063e4963fafa9e0e2e8f44.png


It's a humorous statement that goes, "Fuck you, I'm a dragon." It's just fun to say.
 

TomC

Veteran Member
@TomC *sticks out her tongue*

3Vv2G6v.png


The point was prisons and the other costs of failing to address homelessness is probably substantially more of a fiscal drain than it would be to address those problems. I realize that American prisons are not up to the standards of Norway's "comfy prison" model, but even with that, the cost of keeping those people incarcerated and of paying for their healthcare costs is ludicrous. Furthermore, the cost of paying for their emergency room visits whenever they get sick or injured due to the hazards that are related to homelessness is ludicrous.

The UCLA study that I provided a few posts back was actually very interesting. I think there is a very strong economic case for simply providing shelter for the homeless. Several models for it already exist.

As a person that has been through intermittent homelessness around the time of the recession, I can tell you that being homeless does not make you want to work. It makes you want to be dead. It makes you want to lie down and give up. It puts you into vicious cycles of self-defeating behavior. The idea that making people sleep outside is going to make them more moral is outright unhinged. It just doesn't work that way.
 

Jarhyn

Contributor
The same cell (presumably) hit the Southland Mall in Hayward last night. While I do not accept the dystopian Singapore-style "solutions" proposed by the right, I've got to admit that this anarchic crime activity has me feeling pretty anxious. I suspect we are dealing less with an organized crime unit like a mafia, and more a diffuse internet-fueled avenue for crimes of opportunity in which disenfranchised people with access to the right circles of communication can dip in or out of participation as they feel, thus making them very difficult to collectively hunt down. Their willingness to commit casual acts of violence en route to their goal calls "Fight Club" to mind, not in a good way. We can point fingers to the Left or Right all we like, but I think it is a fact that civil order is fracturing in this country to some degree. Riots every summer, hate crimes every winter, anarchic voices compromising the partisan structure of the goverment at both extremes. Not just in San Francisco by any means, but we will always be high on the list of targets, as long as this is where a siginificant pool of the national wealth is concentrating. And displacing the wealth would just displace the problems. Texas is getting happily high on the new business teat these days, but they're doing as badly as the South Bay did in the 90s when it comes to preparing for the long term consequences of a tech boom; they too will start to see incidents like this happening with greater and greater frequency as their population and profits boom, and they are if anything even less prepared than we were.
Interesting enough, there are a few major effects that are coming down on us, as a species, like teeth of a massive and disgusting jaw. This is absolutely one of them: that evil can now organize
I like to live in a world in my imagination
I've noticed that about you.
Tom
FYIAD.
If I cared I'd Google the meaning of FYIAD.
Oh well.
Tom
16d408443988258cff8b17fa64959b2372a21a3759063e4963fafa9e0e2e8f44.png


It's a humorous statement that goes, "Fuck you, I'm a dragon." It's just fun to say.
I guess in the world of your imagination I asked a question.
I didn't.
Tom
I liked their answer, though I figured it out from context. They don't have to actually need to be answering you to explain it for others.


@TomC *sticks out her tongue*

3Vv2G6v.png


The point was prisons and the other costs of failing to address homelessness is probably substantially more of a fiscal drain than it would be to address those problems. I realize that American prisons are not up to the standards of Norway's "comfy prison" model, but even with that, the cost of keeping those people incarcerated and of paying for their healthcare costs is ludicrous. Furthermore, the cost of paying for their emergency room visits whenever they get sick or injured due to the hazards that are related to homelessness is ludicrous.

The UCLA study that I provided a few posts back was actually very interesting. I think there is a very strong economic case for simply providing shelter for the homeless. Several models for it already exist.

As a person that has been through intermittent homelessness around the time of the recession, I can tell you that being homeless does not make you want to work. It makes you want to be dead. It makes you want to lie down and give up. It puts you into vicious cycles of self-defeating behavior. The idea that making people sleep outside is going to make them more moral is outright unhinged. It just doesn't work that way.
It is a well documented effect that animals will die, just give up, when their agency passes beneath a given lower bound.

Humans are animals.

It strikes me more as a philosophy of "just kill them in a way so as to be able to minimize the feeling of responsibility for such a dereliction of basic personal decency, but so also to stealth away from any act that so brings social censures."

I admit, it may be a geometry of the mind that holds it such that it masks the truth off, defends the ignorance of the thinking mind of it's evil. But it is there, the knowledge of what we know the effect of such positions.
 
The same cell (presumably) hit the Southland Mall in Hayward last night. While I do not accept the dystopian Singapore-style "solutions" proposed by the right, I've got to admit that this anarchic crime activity has me feeling pretty anxious. I suspect we are dealing less with an organized crime unit like a mafia, and more a diffuse internet-fueled avenue for crimes of opportunity in which disenfranchised people with access to the right circles of communication can dip in or out of participation as they feel, thus making them very difficult to collectively hunt down. Their willingness to commit casual acts of violence en route to their goal calls "Fight Club" to mind, not in a good way. We can point fingers to the Left or Right all we like, but I think it is a fact that civil order is fracturing in this country to some degree. Riots every summer, hate crimes every winter, anarchic voices compromising the partisan structure of the goverment at both extremes. Not just in San Francisco by any means, but we will always be high on the list of targets, as long as this is where a siginificant pool of the national wealth is concentrating. And displacing the wealth would just displace the problems. Texas is getting happily high on the new business teat these days, but they're doing as badly as the South Bay did in the 90s when it comes to preparing for the long term consequences of a tech boom; they too will start to see incidents like this happening with greater and greater frequency as their population and profits boom, and they are if anything even less prepared than we were.
Interesting enough, there are a few major effects that are coming down on us, as a species, like teeth of a massive and disgusting jaw. This is absolutely one of them: that evil can now organize
I like to live in a world in my imagination
I've noticed that about you.
Tom
FYIAD.
If I cared I'd Google the meaning of FYIAD.
Oh well.
Tom


It's a humorous statement that goes, "Fuck you, I'm a dragon." It's just fun to say.
I guess in the world of your imagination I asked a question.
I didn't.
Tom
I liked their answer, though I figured it out from context. They don't have to actually need to be answering you to explain it for others.


@TomC *sticks out her tongue*



The point was prisons and the other costs of failing to address homelessness is probably substantially more of a fiscal drain than it would be to address those problems. I realize that American prisons are not up to the standards of Norway's "comfy prison" model, but even with that, the cost of keeping those people incarcerated and of paying for their healthcare costs is ludicrous. Furthermore, the cost of paying for their emergency room visits whenever they get sick or injured due to the hazards that are related to homelessness is ludicrous.

The UCLA study that I provided a few posts back was actually very interesting. I think there is a very strong economic case for simply providing shelter for the homeless. Several models for it already exist.

As a person that has been through intermittent homelessness around the time of the recession, I can tell you that being homeless does not make you want to work. It makes you want to be dead. It makes you want to lie down and give up. It puts you into vicious cycles of self-defeating behavior. The idea that making people sleep outside is going to make them more moral is outright unhinged. It just doesn't work that way.
It is a well documented effect that animals will die, just give up, when their agency passes beneath a given lower bound.

Humans are animals.

It strikes me more as a philosophy of "just kill them in a way so as to be able to minimize the feeling of responsibility for such a dereliction of basic personal decency, but so also to stealth away from any act that so brings social censures."

I admit, it may be a geometry of the mind that holds it such that it masks the truth off, defends the ignorance of the thinking mind of it's evil. But it is there, the knowledge of what we know the effect of such positions.
What made me want to keep consistent employment was getting established enough that I am living in a beautiful home that means enough to my little heart that I want to keep it, rather than having to move into inferior accommodations. The longer I stay in this place, the more I build up a life around it. I have cats, plants, relationships with my neighbors, wall hangings, and a room that literally has its walls lined with books. I am so happy in my current situation that I would literally crawl over broken glass to not have to leave this situation. The difference, now, is that I have something to lose.

A person that has nothing at all and is just defeated every time they try to improve their situation just gets to a point where they get tired of losing, and they stop playing the game.
 

TSwizzle

Contributor
You don’t think the policies in San Francisco have anything to do with it. Interesting.
I have yet to see a concrete, plausible Republican plan for how to end the end practice of shoplifting.
Neither have I but I don't think ending the practice of shoplifting is achievable. But what we do need is a reduction in cases where emboldened shoplifters just walk into a store take what they want and likely suffer no consequences. These incidents are becoming more frequent and more brazen. It is amusing to me that authorities are more concerned about preventing unmasked or unvaccinated people visiting stores, in LA County at least.
The "no consequences" thing is rightwing bullshit, though. Prop 47 doesn't protect armed gangs like this in any way.
In Los Angeles, homicides, robberies, violent crimes etc is up and oddly, arrests are down. Maybe you have an explanation.
 

Politesse

Sapere aude
You don’t think the policies in San Francisco have anything to do with it. Interesting.
I have yet to see a concrete, plausible Republican plan for how to end the end practice of shoplifting.
Neither have I but I don't think ending the practice of shoplifting is achievable. But what we do need is a reduction in cases where emboldened shoplifters just walk into a store take what they want and likely suffer no consequences. These incidents are becoming more frequent and more brazen. It is amusing to me that authorities are more concerned about preventing unmasked or unvaccinated people visiting stores, in LA County at least.
The "no consequences" thing is rightwing bullshit, though. Prop 47 doesn't protect armed gangs like this in any way.
In Los Angeles, homicides, robberies, violent crimes etc is up and oddly, arrests are down. Maybe you have an explanation.
Are you claiming that the police are refusing to arrest people for homicide? It's not surprising to me that there would be an uptick in violent crime during a recession, but to claim that the police aren't doing anything about it is insulting them to the point of slander. I'm not always the biggest fan of the police, but I do trust them to investigate violent crimes to the best of their ability, and indeed I'd much rather they investigate murders than minor shoplifting cases. I do think groups like the one terrorizing the East Bay right now should be hunted down and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, and that's exactly what our police forces are currently doing. But I guess instead of doing that, you think they should be wandering around Broadway Plaza investigating every single case of shoplifting that occurs during the business of the Black Friday shopping rush? How many police do you think should be posted to each store to arrest all those thieving kiddos and loitering bums? We had at least a few hundred dollars worth of petty theft every single day when I worked at that mall, thousands this time of year. Presumably, dozens if not hundreds of offenders. It takes several hours to arrest someone, even at the scene and then again when you need to pull the officer off the street to go testify at the court hearing. Sounds like a full time job for quite a large proportion of the police force, just running the mall security as Republican morons seem to think is their job.
 

TSwizzle

Contributor
The smash and grab fad is catching on;

Police say about 20 people were involved in a smash-and-grab incident at the Nordstrom store in The Grove Monday night. The flash mob struck the Fairfax District department store around 10:45 p.m., according to the Los Angeles Police Department. Video from the scene showed a broken window and a sledgehammer that was left on the ground. Police said more than a dozen suspects fled in four vehicles. One of those vehicles was caught by police in South Los Angeles, where authorities said two suspects were taken into custody.

KTLA News

Thankfully Governor Newsom has some stern words for these would be bandits;

Gov. Gavin Newsom on Monday said he had “no sympathy or empathy” for people involved in recent organized retail thefts in the San Francisco Bay Area that have made national headlines. He said he planned to include an “exponential level of support” in his upcoming budget to help cities address retail theft rings and other quality of life issues. “We want people prosecuted and we want people to feel safe, Gotta be tough on this,” he said.
 

Elixir

Content Thief
The smash and grab fad is catching on;

Ya sure ya betcha it is.
I MIGHT put some stock in your paranoid rant if you had the courage to demonstrate what you contend.
Go for it SWIZZLE. Let's hear your first hand account of how you smashed your way into a retailer's premises, grabbed what you wanted and exited the scene without interference...
Absent such testimony, I conclude, based on past performance, that you have once again overdosed on toxic right wing propagandist sludge.
 

TomC

Veteran Member
Are you claiming that the police are refusing to arrest people for homicide? It's not surprising to me that there would be an uptick in violent crime during a recession, but to claim that the police aren't doing anything about it is insulting them to the point of slander.
Since @TSwizzle didn't claim that, the rest of your post looks like a strawman.

Perhaps your response to what he did say was "The police are making fewer arrests, but more important ones." That's reasonable. But that's not what you said.
Tom
 

thebeave

Veteran Member
Are you claiming that the police are refusing to arrest people for homicide? It's not surprising to me that there would be an uptick in violent crime during a recession, but to claim that the police aren't doing anything about it is insulting them to the point of slander.
Since @TSwizzle didn't claim that, the rest of your post looks like a strawman.

Perhaps your response to what he did say was "The police are making fewer arrests, but more important ones." That's reasonable. But that's not what you said.
Tom
Ah, give him a break. He's getting better. At least he didn't call him a Trumpsucker for what he said, or bring up the 1/6 insurrection.
 

Politesse

Sapere aude
Are you claiming that the police are refusing to arrest people for homicide? It's not surprising to me that there would be an uptick in violent crime during a recession, but to claim that the police aren't doing anything about it is insulting them to the point of slander.
Since @TSwizzle didn't claim that, the rest of your post looks like a strawman.

Perhaps your response to what he did say was "The police are making fewer arrests, but more important ones." That's reasonable. But that's not what you said.
Tom
Ah, give him a break. He's getting better. At least he didn't call him a Trumpsucker for what he said, or bring up the 1/6 insurrection.
When have I ever used such a crude phrase to describe someone else?
 

thebeave

Veteran Member
Are you claiming that the police are refusing to arrest people for homicide? It's not surprising to me that there would be an uptick in violent crime during a recession, but to claim that the police aren't doing anything about it is insulting them to the point of slander.
Since @TSwizzle didn't claim that, the rest of your post looks like a strawman.

Perhaps your response to what he did say was "The police are making fewer arrests, but more important ones." That's reasonable. But that's not what you said.
Tom
Ah, give him a break. He's getting better. At least he didn't call him a Trumpsucker for what he said, or bring up the 1/6 insurrection.
When have I ever used such a crude phrase to describe someone else?
Sorry, my apologies. I didn't mean you. Must not have had enough coffee when I wrote that, Maybe I was mixing up a couple of different threads?!:unsure:
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
The same cell (presumably) hit the Southland Mall in Hayward last night. While I do not accept the dystopian Singapore-style "solutions" proposed by the right, I've got to admit that this anarchic crime activity has me feeling pretty anxious. I suspect we are dealing less with an organized crime unit like a mafia, and more a diffuse internet-fueled avenue for crimes of opportunity in which disenfranchised people with access to the right circles of communication can dip in or out of participation as they feel, thus making them very difficult to collectively hunt down.

Yeah, I think it's some leader declaring when/where the next raid is to be and inviting others to join the mob. It protects their core guys in the crowd. The cops are much more likely to get the followers, not the core.
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
I have a feeling that providing the homeless with free first-come-first-serve dorms would be cheaper than the criminal justice costs resulting from not providing this amenity, but that is just an idea.
This only works if you can somehow screen out the crazies. Otherwise you just get wrecked dorms.
 
I have a feeling that providing the homeless with free first-come-first-serve dorms would be cheaper than the criminal justice costs resulting from not providing this amenity, but that is just an idea.
This only works if you can somehow screen out the crazies. Otherwise you just get wrecked dorms.
Sleeping in the ground does not cure mental illness. I am not sure why you would think this.
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
I have a feeling that providing the homeless with free first-come-first-serve dorms would be cheaper than the criminal justice costs resulting from not providing this amenity, but that is just an idea.
This only works if you can somehow screen out the crazies. Otherwise you just get wrecked dorms.
Sleeping in the ground does not cure mental illness. I am not sure why you would think this.

You're not making sense. I'm not saying sleeping outside helps the mentally ill. I'm saying allowing the nutters into the dorms means they will wreck the dorms. Dorms work for the economically homeless.
 

TSwizzle

Contributor
A wonderful Thanksgiving weekend in Chicago;

Three people were killed and another 40 were shot over the holiday weekend in the latest surge in violent crime. Footage posted online shows a man, who does not appear to have a gun, running through the streets of Chicago as machine gun fire erupts nearby. Hours earlier a man, believed to be in his 20s, was killed in southern Chicago after he was shot several times in the back of his legs. It is not yet know if two incidents were connected. A 50-year-old man was shot in the chest during an attempted robbery on the city's Far South Side and a 22-year-old was struck in the leg by gunfire in the 5500 block of West Belmont Avenue on Sunday morning. Meanwhile video showed a vehicle overturned at the intersection of Huron and Wells after the two people inside were shot during a car chase. So far this year in Chicago, shooting incidents have seen a nine per cent spike, jumping to 3,221 from 2,960 in 2020.

DailyMail
 

thebeave

Veteran Member
A wonderful Thanksgiving weekend in Chicago;

Three people were killed and another 40 were shot over the holiday weekend in the latest surge in violent crime. Footage posted online shows a man, who does not appear to have a gun, running through the streets of Chicago as machine gun fire erupts nearby. Hours earlier a man, believed to be in his 20s, was killed in southern Chicago after he was shot several times in the back of his legs. It is not yet know if two incidents were connected. A 50-year-old man was shot in the chest during an attempted robbery on the city's Far South Side and a 22-year-old was struck in the leg by gunfire in the 5500 block of West Belmont Avenue on Sunday morning. Meanwhile video showed a vehicle overturned at the intersection of Huron and Wells after the two people inside were shot during a car chase. So far this year in Chicago, shooting incidents have seen a nine per cent spike, jumping to 3,221 from 2,960 in 2020.

DailyMail
Oakland is not far behind Chicago.* Violent weekend there too. A security guard who was protecting news reporters and equipment while they were reporting on the street in Oakland was shot last week, and died yesterday. Oakland is up to 127 homicides so far this year. Good job, Libby. Keep up the good work.

* Actually, I take that back. Chicago has had 732 homicides so far this year, to Oakland's 127. So, its a long way behind. Still....
 
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