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Climate Change(d)?

It's baffling that people think the climate should not change or fluctuate.

Strawman.

It is no more or less of a strawman when the "climate change denier" gets trotted out but I never see you call that out weirdly enough.
Actually, I believe that I addressed that before. Pedantically you are correct but the phrase is shorthand for something slightly nuanced.

It is shorthand but there is nothing nuanced about it. It is base name calling. It is a religious chant aimed at heretics.
Would you prefer that people that deny human driven climate change as being "stupid", "ignorant", "simple minded"? Which word should be used instead or merely being a "denier"?

Or are you upset just at people claiming catastrophic issues? Because you've never posted in this thread seriously to suggest you've even given the science a thought.
 
Well, thanks to this strong El Nino, it snowed last night. Gonna have the leaves raked before Xmas this year! Maybe even before December. First time in several years. Had one heck of an average seasonal summer, other than humidity.
It's baffling that people think the climate should not change or fluctuate. It is a phenomenon that has been happening on planet earth since forever.
We've been witnessing geological scale very fast warming of Earth, the air and water. This correlates well to industrialization. We had some of the warmest years during La Nina cycles, where things aren't supposed to be so warm. The Gulf Coast (land and water) saw record season long temps.

We don't know how this will ultimately impact our lives. It isn't going to end life on Earth, unless the methane release in the permafrost becomes a mass driver in too quick a time.

Heat waves are hotter and more enduring. We do know that catastrophic flooding is more common now. Hurricanes are blooming quicker and stronger in the last 20 years, than in the previous 20 years, and much more so than the 20 years before that. These are all being experienced globally. This is costing us more money and insurance companies are fleeing areas. There are actual impacts of climate change that expand beyond the weather in Southern California.

Forget it, Jake. It's QAnon-Town.

Oooops. Wrong thread?
 
Brisbane is full of smoke; The air is so thick with it that the sunlight at noon is weak and orange, and you can stare at the rising sun, which is a dull reddish colour.

It's coming from a few hundred km west of the city, where huge areas of the Western Downs are ablaze. More than eighty homes have been destroyed so far, with little prospect of relief. The weather is hot, dry, and windy; Firefighters are hoping for lighter winds, but there's little prospect of significant rain any time soon.

https://amp.theguardian.com/austral...res-lates-updates-tara-western-downs-brisbane
 
Brisbane is full of smoke; The air is so thick with it that the sunlight at noon is weak and orange, and you can stare at the rising sun, which is a dull reddish colour.

It's coming from a few hundred km west of the city, where huge areas of the Western Downs are ablaze. More than eighty homes have been destroyed so far, with little prospect of relief. The weather is hot, dry, and windy; Firefighters are hoping for lighter winds, but there's little prospect of significant rain any time soon.

https://amp.theguardian.com/austral...res-lates-updates-tara-western-downs-brisbane

But I bet it’s gorgeous in Santa Monica!
 

It is shorthand but there is nothing nuanced about it. It is base name calling. It is a religious chant aimed at heretics.
ok. So what language would you prefer? “Scientifically ignorant”? “Denier of science”?

Or should we follow your lead and say “rapture-like cultists”? It seems base name calling is not beneath *you* so why be bothered by others?

All we have from you is that you have heard from some people (primarily non-scientists) saying that the world is going to end and then you look outside and see the world hasn’t ended therefore you can safely ignore the science, yes? If the globe were warming wouldn’t Santa Monica be uncomfortably hot? If you can’t understand the science then clearly the science must be wrong.
 
It is shorthand but there is nothing nuanced about it. It is base name calling. It is a religious chant aimed at heretics.
ok. So what language would you prefer? “Scientifically ignorant”? “Denier of science”?
It doesn't matter what language you use but don't pretend it's nuanced.

Or should we follow your lead and say “rapture-like cultists”? It seems base name calling is not beneath *you* so why be bothered by others?
Those that are screaming that life on earth is going to end in x amount of time unless we repent our wicked modern ways are religious fanatics. Just stop oil, Greta followers, Al Gore followers etc are cultists, not scientists.
 
Brisbane is full of smoke; The air is so thick with it that the sunlight at noon is weak and orange, and you can stare at the rising sun, which is a dull reddish colour.

It's coming from a few hundred km west of the city, where huge areas of the Western Downs are ablaze. More than eighty homes have been destroyed so far, with little prospect of relief. The weather is hot, dry, and windy; Firefighters are hoping for lighter winds, but there's little prospect of significant rain any time soon.

https://amp.theguardian.com/austral...res-lates-updates-tara-western-downs-brisbane

Chiang Mai had a very high AQI and/or PM2.5 circa Feb-Mar-April. I started to wonder about our choice of residence -- thousands in the North are hospitalized for smoke at that time of year -- but care reduced our risk.For some weeks Rose of the North (CNX) was first in the world for PM2.5 :-( But then a month or two later ... the Big Apple (LGA/JFK/EWR) was first in the world. NYC blamed its smoke on Canada. Many Thais blame their smoke on Burma. (Should I feel pretentious or such for using the old country name?)

Climate change is becoming so obviously apparent, that the Ilk -- (never mind that Mr. Swizzle is behind the times) -- has switched away from
* (A) "It's not happening, and even if it is, that has nothing to do with man's CO2"
Briefly, the evidence against this proposition is now so overwhelming, that even FoxNews and InfoWars liars are switching to another line:
* (B) "It's happening; it's too late to avoid even if we wanted to, which we don't."

Haven't Tucker Carlson, Judge Judy, and other top GOP intellectuals moved from (A) to (B)? Shouldn't one of us play Devil's Advocate and present the best right-wing memes in (B), if TSwizz can't help us with that? What does Sean Hannity think about climate change? Lauren Boebert? Speaker Johnson? Gary Johnson? Vlad Putin? Steve Bannon?
 
It is shorthand but there is nothing nuanced about it. It is base name calling. It is a religious chant aimed at heretics.
ok. So what language would you prefer? “Scientifically ignorant”? “Denier of science”?
It doesn't matter what language you use but don't pretend it's nuanced.
Ok I thought the problem was that “climate change denier” implied the person didn’t think climate ever changes. The nuance to which I was referring was that it implies the person doesn’t believe in anthropogenic climate change. And thus “climate change denier” was shorthand for “denier of anthropogenic climate change”, a phrase that doesn’t roll of the tongue as well.

But it seems you are against the use of any language that could be considered pejorative.

Certainly the ignorance of these deniers is not nuanced. I’ll grant that.

Or should we follow your lead and say “rapture-like cultists”? It seems base name calling is not beneath *you* so why be bothered by others?
Those that are screaming that life on earth is going to end in x amount of time unless we repent our wicked modern ways are religious fanatics. Just stop oil, Greta followers, Al Gore followers etc are cultists, not scientists.
I mostly agree with that. But you need to ignore the fanatics and listen to the scientists. Which you seem unwilling to do. Your continued reference to the temperature of Santa Monica suggests your are uninterested in a good faith discussion in the topic. You have responded to extremism with extremism.
 
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But it seems you are against the use of any language that could be considered pejorative.

Come off it. You've seen the language in this thread. The slightest scepticism of the wild claims of the coming apocalypse are howled at as qanon conspiracy. It's silly and I treat it as such.

Those that are screaming that life on earth is going to end in x amount of time unless we repent our wicked modern ways are religious fanatics. Just stop oil, Greta followers, Al Gore followers etc are cultists, not scientists.
I mostly agree with that. But you need to ignore the fanatics and listen to the scientists. Which you seem unwilling to do.

A lot of "scientists" are just activists.

Your continued reference to the temperature of Santa Monica suggests your are uninterested in a good faith discussion in the topic.

I am not interested in earnestly discussing the doomsday religion that's for sure. In regards to the weather in Santa Monica, I'm not the only one that presents anecdotal "evidence" of the climate apocalypse or not in my case.
 
Tswizzle

We are already out of time, the effects are on us today. Food supplies in some areas are affected. The issue is about lessening the future extremes.

As to warming and pollution. I grew up in Stamford Ct about 40 miles from NYC. In the 60s there was a big long lasting temperature inversion. A thermal dome grew over the area tapping pollution. The skies were clear but day by day visibility dropped and temperature in the dome went up.

Not an exact comparison to what is causing global warming but similar. Of course auto industry scientists contradicted the effects. Much as tobacco scientists claimed tobacco does not cause lung cancer.

Remember LA before auto pollution controls?

Global warming due to human pollution's as real as it gets.


The 1966 New York City smog was a major air-pollution episode and environmental disaster, coinciding with that year's Thanksgiving holiday weekend. Smog covered the city and its surrounding area from November 23 to 26, filling the city's air with damaging levels of several toxic pollutants. It was the third major smog in New York City, following events of similar scale in 1953 and 1963.

On November 23, a large mass of stagnant air over the East Coast trapped pollutants in the city's air. For three days, New York City was engulfed in dangerously high levels of carbon monoxide, sulfur dioxide, smoke, and haze. Pockets of air pollution pervaded the greater New York metropolitan area, including parts of New Jersey and Connecticut. By November 25, the smog became severe enough that regional leaders announced a "first-stage alert". During the alert, leaders of local and state governments asked residents and industry to take voluntary steps to minimize emissions. Health officials advised people with respiratory or heart conditions to remain indoors. The city shut off garbage incinerators, requiring massive hauling of garbage to landfills. A cold front dispersed the smog on November 26, and the alert ended.

In the months that followed, medical researchers studied the smog's impact on health. City officials initially maintained that the smog had not caused any deaths, but it soon became clear that the smog had significantly harmed public health. A study published in December 1966 estimated that 10% of the city's population had suffered adverse health effects, such as stinging eyes, coughing, and respiratory distress. A statistical analysis published in October 1967 found that 168 deaths had likely been caused by the smog.

The smog catalyzed greater national awareness of air pollution as a serious health problem and a political issue. The government of New York City updated local laws on air-pollution control. Prompted by the smog, President Lyndon B. Johnson and members of Congress worked to pass federal legislation regulating air pollution in the United States, culminating in the 1967 Air Quality Act and the 1970 Clean Air Act. The extent of harms from subsequent pollution events, including the health effects of pollution from the September 11 attacks and incidents of pollution in China, have been judged by reference to the 1966 smog in New York.


A temperature inversion is a layer in the atmosphere in which air temperature increases with height. An inversion is present in the lower part of a cap. The cap is a layer of relatively warm air aloft (above the inversion).

Understand that known phenomena and you will begin to understand global warming.
 
I grew up in Stamford Ct
I “grew up” near there in Easton.
On a clear day you could see the Empire State Building. I think it was the tallest building in the world or maybe the tallest habitable structure or something. I wonder when the last time was when you could see it from there. (Other than during pandemic shutdown)

Then I really grew up in Naples FL. Alligators lived in the swamps that went all the way to the beaches as soon as you got outside of town. There were perennial clouds of menhaden minnows under the pier, now all but gone. There was a mackerel run at dawn every day during winter. Last time I tried it (about 15 yrs ago) there was nothing you could call a “run”, just a few fish happening by. There were humongous sharks that nobody feared, monster Manta Rays, and just a whole lot more marine and bird life than there is now.
The intracoastal waterway used to be a fishing paradise. Now it’s disgusting; you couldn’t pay me to eat fish from there. :(
 
But it seems you are against the use of any language that could be considered pejorative.

Come off it. You've seen the language in this thread. The slightest scepticism of the wild claims of the coming apocalypse are howled at as qanon conspiracy. It's silly and I treat it as such.

Those that are screaming that life on earth is going to end in x amount of time unless we repent our wicked modern ways are religious fanatics. Just stop oil, Greta followers, Al Gore followers etc are cultists, not scientists.
I mostly agree with that. But you need to ignore the fanatics and listen to the scientists. Which you seem unwilling to do.

A lot of "scientists" are just activists.

Can you give an example of one? Al Gore and Greta Thunberg don’t count.

Your continued reference to the temperature of Santa Monica suggests your are uninterested in a good faith discussion in the topic.

I am not interested in earnestly discussing the doomsday religion that's for sure. In regards to the weather in Santa Monica, I'm not the only one that presents anecdotal "evidence" of the climate apocalypse or not in my case.

I’m sure you’re not the only one. But that’s not science on either side.

So if others do it then it’s ok you do it too? As I said, showing no interest in a good faith discussion of the actual science.
 
A lot of "scientists" are just activists.

Can you give an example of one? Al Gore and Greta Thunberg don’t count.

I never said they were. And you lecture me about entering into discussion in good faith. :rolleyes:

I am not interested in earnestly discussing the doomsday religion that's for sure. In regards to the weather in Santa Monica, I'm not the only one that presents anecdotal "evidence" of the climate apocalypse or not in my case.
As I said, showing no interest in a good faith discussion of the actual science.
Let me know when "actual science" makes an appearnce.
 
A lot of "scientists" are just activists.

Can you give an example of one? Al Gore and Greta Thunberg don’t count.

I never said they were. And you lecture me about entering into discussion in good faith. :rolleyes:

Fine. Then just give an example of an actual climate scientist you consider to be an activist and provide links to quotes or examples of their activism. Especially those you consider to be apocalyptic. A scientist Just seeking action on a known problem doesn’t count, as it seems that your issue is with alarmists.

I am not interested in earnestly discussing the doomsday religion that's for sure. In regards to the weather in Santa Monica, I'm not the only one that presents anecdotal "evidence" of the climate apocalypse or not in my case.
As I said, showing no interest in a good faith discussion of the actual science.
Let me know when "actual science" makes an appearnce.
Well, if you are actually willing to listen any of us could provide information and/or links to actual science. Some has already been presented in this thread but it seems you either haven’t read it or at least haven’t commented on it.
 
A lot of "scientists" are just activists.

Can you give an example of one? Al Gore and Greta Thunberg don’t count.

I never said they were. And you lecture me about entering into discussion in good faith. :rolleyes:

I am not interested in earnestly discussing the doomsday religion that's for sure. In regards to the weather in Santa Monica, I'm not the only one that presents anecdotal "evidence" of the climate apocalypse or not in my case.
As I said, showing no interest in a good faith discussion of the actual science.
Let me know when "actual science" makes an appearnce.
A tiresome dodge. Is there something you do not understudy in my last post? Or are you just ignoring inconvenient facts?

We can start with some simple climate science.

Wat causes high and low atmospheric pressures and how do pressures affect weather?

What constitutes a storm front scientifically? Anybody who watches daily or weekly weather forecasting in the news might know that.


In Washington wearer forecasting is fairly accurate, computer modeling. Temperatures at points in the region and sate are usually win a few degrees. Where rain will fall and amount of rain.

Same kind of modeling used in climate science.

It is Sunday night and the weather forecast for next Saturday says a blizzard in the mountains.

Would you ignore that and drive far into the mountains back country on Friday? Or not knowing any climate science would you assume that all the weather reporting says the same thing and forecasters know their business?

Or if you heard one report out of 10 that says it will be warm and sunny would you ignore the majority reporting of a blizzard?

I doubt you will respond to this.
 
Let me know when "actual science" makes an appearnce.
Here's a plot of atmospheric CO2 concentration over the past 800,000 years.

fig3-large.jpg

As you can see in the upper frame of the graph, modern levels of CO2 concentration have reached nearly twice historical levels in a blip in time relative to the timescale of this chart (see e.g., Jouzel et al. 2007). That's not a natural event. It's not what climate scientists are referring to when they say "the climate has always been changing".

We are just starting to see the effects of that amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and we should expect from our understanding of basic atmospheric physics that the atmospheric temperature changes we have been seeing over the past few decades will continue to rise and there should be a corresponding spike in the temperature plot in the lower frame of that graph. Eventually, even Santa Monica may feel its effects!

Other science of "actual science" on this one particular aspect of climate change: Luthi, D., et al.. 2008; Etheridge, D.M., et al. 2010; Vostok ice core data/J.R. Petit et al.; NOAA Mauna Loa CO2 record.
 
But also keep in mind that an Internet forum is not an appropriate environment t to give someone a proper education in an entire field of science. Anything presented will essentially be a small subset of the actual science and you may be tempted to dismiss the whole field if you don’t understand some small part.

This is why there are people who are professional scientists whose careers are dedicated to deeply understanding the field and actively participating in research and analysis. Whole societies of scientists all
Across the world are dedicated to sharing results and interpreting data to come to scientific consensus on the state of the science.
 
Baffling why so many expect earth's climate to be static.

Climate change/crisis/emergency. A rapture like cult.

Carry on.
Funny how TSwizzle has been whining about this particular semantic for years. Probably also thought "#BLM" meant only black lives mattered because it wasn't #BLMJLAOLM (Blacks lives matter, just like all other lives matter).

When one needs to rail for years on pedantic semantics, hard to take them as being remotely serious.
 
I've noticed some confusion in this thread by the Climate-Denier-in-Chief so I've decided to present a very brief summary of "climate fluctuations." I hope that IIDB experts will scrutinize my remarks and make appropriate corrections.

Let's first dispose of the term "Climate Denier." We all know exactly what this term means. One of us needed to make a sophomoric joke about it -- he doesn't deny the Earth has a climate, and recently even stipulates that climate can fluctuate! We all got a big chuckle when he made this joke the first time: We were once all sophomores too! But it does wear thin. I suggest he make a YouTube or TikTok recording his joke. Then we can relive that sophomoric thrill as often -- or as seldom -- as we prefer.

Well you all seem so astonished that the climate fluctuates. I have to assume that many think that climate is static and does not change.
This claim of astonishment astonished me! Excepting Mr. Swizzle himself, is anyone here arguing that climate is static and does not change?

More interesting is: What are the climate "fluctuations" Mr. Swizzle thinks he understands? The 24-hour day/night cycle effects a major temperature cycle, as does the seasonal variation over 366.24 sidereal days. Sunspot activity is roughly periodic at 11 years and has an effect on climate; and so does the El Niño Southern Oscillation. But surely Mr. Swizzle is much too good of a scientist to pretend that these oscillations are primary cause of the decades-long warming we have seen.

There is much confusion about the Milankovitch cycles. Some QOPAnoners do not seem to understand that the Earth's gross insolation, when averaged for a year across all latitudes is almost constant. What the Milankovitch cycles do effect is the portion of the insolation received at various latitudes. Heating land has more effect on the Earth's net temperature than heating water, because land ice forms more readily. Loss of glaciers reduces the Earth's albedo -- this positive feedback is a major driver of climate change. However the Milankovitch cycles have their weakest effect when the orbital eccentricity is low (i.e. the orbit is nearly circular) as is the case at present.

Note that such a glaciation/interglacial oscillation driven by the positive feedback of albedo requires a specific temperature range! The Earth must be cold enough for ice to form, but not so cold as to cover the earth in a snowball.

It is not known with certainty what caused the Earth to cool about 3 million years ago, leading to glaciation and a climate where hominids thrived. One possible cause is the closing of the Central American Seaway as plate tectonics pushed the South and North America landmasses together. Separating the cold water in the Eastern Pacific from the warm Caribbean increased ocean heat in the North Atlantic which (paradoxically?) increased ice production in Greenland.

Anyway, as we examine past fluctuation it is interesting to see how often the level of greenhouse gases, especially CO2, correlates strongly with temperature. With CO2 both cause and effect of warming, positive feedback means that small changes can have a big effect on global temperatures.

This is a key point that deniers of anthropogenic climate change overlook. They take exactly the WRONG conclusion from the FACT that there have been frequent temperature fluctuations in the past. The sharp fluctuations of the past demonstrate that, due to positive feedbacks, the Earth's climate is FRAGILE. Two trillion tons of CO2 may seem like a tiny amount, but scientists understand that it has had a huge effect, and will continue to heat the Earth in coming decades.

Two specific changes may illustrate climate fragility. About 56 million years ago, methane hydrates in ocean sediments became warm enough to be released. This happened quite suddenly, and -- because methane is a greenhouse gas -- there was an EXTREMELY rapid rise in Earth's temperature, even bigger than the anthropogenic warming we currently enjoy. This sudden temperature rise caused massive extinctions.

Just a few million years later there was sharp temperature change in the opposite direction. With the extinctions, higher temperatures, and high concentration of CO2, multitudes of oceanic duckweeds (mosquito-ferns) thrived., sequestering carbon as dead duckweeds dropped to the ocean floor. This carbon sequestration caused temperatures to fall sharply.

Does any of this help, Mr. Swizzle? Do you see how the fragility of Earth's climate is a cause for concern about anthropogenic change, rather than a cause for celebration?
 
Tswizzle

We are already out of time, the effects are on us today. Food supplies in some areas are affected. The issue is about lessening the future extremes.
Earlier this year our main summer hiking area got smashed by the remains of a hurricane--that simply doesn't happen around here. Trails built decades ago are all messed up, one of them had a 20 foot deep canyon carved through it. So far one of the low-lying trailheads (a much shallower slope so the water didn't flow so fast) has reopened, the closure order on the rest of the area was for two years. (Note that this was the same storm that played havoc with Death Valley.) It's going to cost millions to rebuild and that doesn't count the huge number of volunteer hours that will go into it.
 
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