Contemplating short dresses and cleavage on teens

[DrZoidberg]

Anecdotally, of our two daughters, the younger (the straight one), was more likely at times to look a bit like the pic above, as a teenager, though not that often to that extent. In her case, we both felt she was pretty mature and sorted (already a proto-feminist) so we felt that there was little we could tell her that she wasn't already aware of. Older daughter may a few times have gone to a house party dressed a little bit like that, but in that case we knew most of the attendees, boys and girls (my wife teaches at the mixed-sex school both daughters attended and there was not a huge problem with such things). Ditto for weddings and other family or friends gatherings, personal safety not being such an issue in those cases. And if you're a parent, you'll know that it's mainly about safety, and precautions and prevention, not so much 'who's to blame' (afterwards) or even who would be to blame (beforehand).

But why would the way a woman dresses ever be a problem? You are aware that the slutiness of the dress is not what makes men more bold or likely to rape? It's just something guys sometimes say afterwards (to others and themselves) when they get busted. If anything women showing a lot of skin mostly make guys all shy and nervous, because they get turned on. Which might explain how they often make an arse of themselves trying to overcompensate.

Just because people say something a lot, doesn't make it true. Loads of people say they can talk to God and have a personal relationship with him/her/it... still bullshit.

My experience is that women who dress "slutty" do so because they have high demands on what they want from men. Since they have high demands, they have to make more of an effort to get them. So dress slutty. Or want to be sure to get a man at all. It's the same logic behind it. Women are often resentful of other women dressing more slutty than them, because it's seen as cheating... because it works. I have never understood the resentment with it.

BTW, I can recommend talking to a fashion designer about this. They can talk frankly, openly and directly about this. But it's their job. They're the experts and know xactly what is going on in the heads of those buying her clothes. They've done the research.

How about letting our kids dress anyway they want? How else are they going to develop a personal fashion sense? And develop a sense of autonomy?

 

[bigfield]

Anecdotally, of our two daughters, the younger (the straight one), was more likely at times to look a bit like the pic above, as a teenager, though not that often to that extent. In her case, we both felt she was pretty mature and sorted (already a proto-feminist) so we felt that there was little we could tell her that she wasn't already aware of. Older daughter may a few times have gone to a house party dressed a little bit like that, but in that case we knew most of the attendees, boys and girls (my wife teaches at the mixed-sex school both daughters attended and there was not a huge problem with such things). Ditto for weddings and other family or friends gatherings, personal safety not being such an issue in those cases. And if you're a parent, you'll know that it's mainly about safety, and precautions and prevention, not so much 'who's to blame' (afterwards) or even who would be to blame (beforehand).

What was it about the clothing that made you worry? Does sexy clothing really make girls more likely targets? I think it's probably just an excuse offered after the fact.

In the wild, predators choose the easiest individuals to isolate and subdue, not the ones asking to be hunted, and it doesn't matter how tasty they look if there's a chance the predator will get its head caved in. They zero in on prey that is weak(ened) and isolated from the protection of the herd. I doubt the predators among us are very far removed from the rest of the animal kingdom; they even hunt in packs sometimes.

 

[TSwizzle]

Seeing a bunch of semi-formal pictures from various area high schools.

Many of the girls that I know to be 15-17 are shown with their huge happy smiles, feeling fancy in their dresses.

Some of the dresses are extremely short (enough that I’d be annoyed by inability to lean over), some have prodigious cleavage (enough that I’d be annoyed by inability to turn suddenly,) some are accompanied by strappy spike heels (high enough that I’d be annoyed by sore feet and instability). The girls are in bright lipstick and coiffed hair.

But what struck me as I enjoyed how happy their smiles were, was that I knew that not one of them, not a single one, was dressed this way to attract sex.

The think they are fancy. The are fancy.
They think they look more adult. And they do.
And those things are ALL that the girls are looking to be. fancy grown-ups for the evening.

I think a lot depends on the context of these formal pictures. In some contexts the above will be true. Other contexts, well maybe not so much. Going back to my eldest daughter's high school days, senior year, there were some events where the girls were almost exactly as described above. They were going to an end of season girls basketball, a family gathering more or less. Most of the girls were dressed up to the nines and looked a bit more grown up, not all the girls were seniors. Some were dressed rather risque as comments from some attendees indicated. Very happy girls and I would say, none of them dressed to attract sex. Or were they ? Who knows, a few of the basketball team are gay. Anyway, a few of the girls weren't really "dressed up" as they pretty much dress this way whenever possible and they do it in order to snag guys.

 

[Thomas II]

 

[Toni]

My daughter did not dress in what any normal person, even overly hormonal sexually overloaded teenage boys, would consider to be sexually provocative.

It did not stop her from being harassed, even at her places of work. It did not make (one of) her (male) boss(es) sympathetic. Instead, he was punitive towards my daughter when a customer exposed himself to her. He was furious that she called the police--as she was within her rights to do. He was furious that he felt compelled to bar that customer from his place of business. At other jobs, other bosses (female) backed up my daughter when she defended herself from those who did things like grab her ass as she was serving their table. Note: this was not a strip joint or a tittie bar but a family oriented restaurant/bowling alley where many people took their children for birthday parties....Her attire? Jeans and a t-shirt with the establishment's logo on it.

As I mentioned before, she spent some months dressing basically like a homeless person in the winter time in the upper midwest and it did not stop men from making passes at her.

What I wore when I was sexually assaulted did not contribute to me being assaulted: loose fitting turtleneck, slacks, with only my face and hands exposed, or my work uniform when I worked in the food industry or my work clothes (pregnant, long sleeves, loose fitting--very covered up) or jeans/t-shirt at social events. Note: Only once was any of the guys who assaulted or tried to assault me under the influence and that, I basically don't even consider to be a big deal because he was clearly too drunk to realize what he was doing. For myself? Except once, I was stone cold sober. And the first time? Young enough to think that people only wrote the word Fuck on bathroom walls.


What a woman wears or does not wear is not the reason men who make passes or unpleasant remarks or sexually assault women do such things.

Maybe instead of you trying to tell women why we dress the way that we do, you can explain why you treat women so disrespectfully? Why you are ok with men sexually assaulting women? Physically abusing women. Trying to tell women how to dress. Trying to tell women what to think. Trying to tell women WHY women dress and think and say and do what they do. It's disrespectful and ignorant, at its best.

Explain to me why you behave like that. It does not seem to get you laid any more often. It does not seem to improve your relationship with women. WHY DO YOU THINK YOU UNDERSTAND WHY WOMEN DRESS THE WAY THEY DO WHEN YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND HOW YOUR WIFE THINKS OR FEELS ABOUT ANYTHING?


I raised both male and female children. You cannot imagine, unless you are the parent of a black son (in which case, it was even worse), how horrible it felt to caution my daughter when she went out...for a walk! or to a friends' house! or to the grocery store! in ways that I never had to caution my sons. That was nothing, NOTHING, compared to having to defend my cautions to my daughter who was beyond furious that she couldn't simply live her life --and that there was nothing I could do to protect her short of wrapping her in bubble wrap (women in burkas are also sexually assaulted) or locking her in her room to prevent it and that I felt compelled to RESTRICT HER BEHAVIOR AND MOVEMENTS EVEN THOUGH SHE WAS DOING NOTHING WRONG OR EVEN SLIGHTLY PROVOCATIVE EXCEPT TO EXIST WHILE FEMALE. Please note: we live, as I've stated many times, in a small college town. And while she did get hit on by college guys when she was in middle school(!) they are not the ones who made her unsafe.

So fuck you to all you men who think you know what women are thinking when women and girls pick out their outfits and get dressed up to go out with each other.

Try doing a little self examination about what you are thinking when you see women dressed....in any fashion at all! And why it is that you just cannot bring yourselves to insist that your friends and sons and brothers behave better. Because I know that no man here would ever, ever, ever grab a woman's ass or try to back her into a corner or reach into her clothing or expose himself to her, much less attempt to rape her.

How about writing about that: what is it like as a man to know that your fellow men treat women so inappropriately? Don't you feel bad that their actions put you under suspicion? That (some) women won't feel safe just because you are male? If how bad it must make a woman feel to be so fearful and suspicious of men doesn't move you, can't you at least consider that it works against you? Makes you feel bad to be lumped in with the bad guys because you don't have good guy/bad guy/rapist stamped on your foreheads?

 

[sharon45]

No, it took thousands of years to get women to imagine that they are in control.

Wow.

I would say that it is men who imagine that that they are in control. It is women who have been convinced through socialization, not biology, that it is better to allow men to be in control or to believe that they are in control.

Men aren't in control either, hence why I said above about it concerning all sexes.

 

[ruby sparks]

Does sexy clothing really make girls more likely targets?

For sexual assault? No, not as far as I know. I did say that, so I think I agree with you.

But that might not be the case (seems not to be the case) for unwanted attention, for example, which might amount to harassment, or it might not be the case for just being treated differently, regarding respect, or it might attract certain comments, or touching. She may also be objectified. Because revealing attire arouses the (straight) male brain and alcohol compromises certain restraining mechanisms in that brain, and add that to the belief, by men, that dress and make up are signalling accessibility and intents (which may not be there).

It may also adversely affect the outcome of a trial if a girl wearing those clothes did happen to be assaulted. I realise that is not right and hopefully happening less and less, even if not necessarily in the court of popular opinion, and has to do with perceptions, as indeed would the unwanted attention and the other things that might happen even if it does not get to actual serious assault or rape.

All this assumes that the teenage girl does not want certain reactions, or does not want them from just any man. She may be exercising her ability to flaunt her sexuality and she might be well aware of the likely reactions and she might be fine with both. See again: what Heather Heying said. Nor does it say anything about her ability to handle it if it happens. She may be well-equipped.

 

[bigfield]

Does sexy clothing really make girls more likely targets?

For sexual assault? No, not as far as I know. I did say that, so I think I agree with you.

But that might not be the case for unwanted attention, for example, which might amount to harassment, or just being treated differently. It may also adversely affect the outcome of a trial if a girl wearing those clothes did happen to be assaulted. I realise that is not right, and has to do with perceptions, as indeed would the unwanted attention.

OK, maybe I read sething into the post that wasn't there. I thought you had safety concerns regarding your daughters' choice of outfits.

 

[Toni]

Does sexy clothing really make girls more likely targets?

For sexual assault? No, not as far as I know. I did say that, so I think I agree with you.

But that might not be the case for unwanted attention, for example, which might amount to harassment, or it might not be the case for just being treated differently, regarding respect, or it might attract certain comments. It may also adversely affect the outcome of a trial if a girl wearing those clothes did happen to be assaulted. I realise that is not right, and has to do with perceptions, as indeed would the unwanted attention.

Unwanted attention comes without provocative dress. I understand the impulse to try to protect daughters by insisting they cover up but trust me: covering up isn't a solution because dressing provocatively is not the problem.

The problem is that boys and men seem to feel that they can behave as they choose and blame it on how a girl or a woman dresses.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I assume that some people also think that if a rich kid shows up to school in a Porsche and wearing an expensive suit, he had some sort of obligation to buy all the other kids lunch and it's OK to mug him and take his wallet if he doesn't because it was his own damn fault for dressing and acting so provocatively.

 

[ruby sparks]

I assume that some people also think that if a rich kid shows up to school in a Porsche and wearing an expensive suit, he had some sort of obligation to buy all the other kids lunch and it's OK to mug him and take his wallet if he doesn't because it was his own damn fault for dressing and acting so provocatively.

I have no idea if some think that. I do think it would be ok to advise such a kid not to go down a certain dark alley in a certain part of town with his wallet hanging out or leave his Porche there overnight, even if I agree it would hardly be his fault if either he got mugged or his car was stolen.

Unless I felt he was already wise to all that. Then I wouldn't need to warn him (or her for that matter, if it was a girl). Though if it was my kid, I might still remind them. That's parenting in some ways. You always want them to take precautions, be aware of risks and develop a sense of personal responsibility.

 

[ruby sparks]

OK, maybe I read sething into the post that wasn't there. I thought you had safety concerns regarding your daughters' choice of outfits.

I do (or did).

But...it wouldn't necessarily be outright sexual assault or rape I was worried about (except perhaps that I may not trust the data on rape and assault, and might be being irrational).

 

[ruby sparks]

Unwanted attention comes without provocative dress.

Sure. But do things like dress, appearance and behaviour increase unwanted attention (and some of the other things I mentioned)? I don't know. My starting position would be that they do, though I have no probs being persuaded otherwise. I'm aware those things apparently don't affect the chances of being raped or seriously sexually assaulted (when I trust the literature on that, which I admit I sometimes have trouble doing, because at the end of the day if someone is assaulted, the literature is just pieces of paper. I realise I might be being inconsistent and possibly irrational here).

 

[ruby sparks]

Another example, admittedly to do with behaviour not dress, is a young woman, who has consumed alcohol, going to a bedroom at a party with a young man, that she doesn't know all that well, who has also consumed alcohol, for kissing and cuddling.

We all know how that one goes. Doesn't matter. If she's raped, it's his fault. Correct.

But at the same time, what parent in their right mind would not, if given the opportunity beforehand, just say nothing about the potential risks of that to a teenage daughter, assuming that the prospect of it is fairly new to her and she's not wise to all the risks (slightly different story if it isn't and she is perhaps).

Controversial perhaps. I'm just being honest. I'd say something. It would almost certainly be all about the risks that the boy might do something wrong or bad. It wouldn't be about fault on my daughter's part, though I might mention exercising caution and personal responsibility.

In any case, if I have a raped daughter, who to blame is not going to be my number 1 problem or the one I give most of a dang about. It's not as if it's going to unrape her.

 

[Toni]

Unwanted attention comes without provocative dress.

Sure. But do things like dress, appearance and behaviour increase unwanted attention (and some of the other things I mentioned)? I don't know. My starting position would be that they do, though I have no probs being persuaded otherwise. I'm aware those things apparently don't affect the chances of being raped or seriously sexually assaulted (when I trust the literature on that, which I admit I sometimes have trouble doing, because at the end of the day if someone is assaulted, the literature is just pieces of paper. I realise I might be being inconsistent and possibly irrational here).

Do you know what really causes unwanted attention?

Bad attitudes and bad judgment of men and boys.

Do you know who is to blame for drunk girls at parties being raped?

Boys and men with bad attitudes and bad judgment and an outsized sense of entitlement.

 

[Toni]

I assume that some people also think that if a rich kid shows up to school in a Porsche and wearing an expensive suit, he had some sort of obligation to buy all the other kids lunch and it's OK to mug him and take his wallet if he doesn't because it was his own damn fault for dressing and acting so provocatively.

I have no idea if some think that. I do think it would be ok to advise such a kid not to go down a certain dark alley in a certain part of town with his wallet hanging out or leave his Porche there overnight, even if I agree it would hardly be his fault if either he got mugged or his car was stolen.

Unless I felt he was already wise to all that. Then I wouldn't need to warn him (or her for that matter, if it was a girl). Though if it was my kid, I might still remind them. That's parenting in some ways. You always want them to take precautions, be aware of risks and develop a sense of personal responsibility.

Sometimes the boy's track team from the local high school, or sometimes the men's college football team or sometimes a group of fairly buff adult men, up to and including men from their 20's to their sixties take a run around my neighborhood or on popular walking paths and where a lot of people drive past on their way to work or errands or whatever. Sometimes, they are alone. Do you know what those sluts do? Sometimes they run right past me with no shirts on and short pants! Even worse, sometimes, men--in groups or ALONE! ride past around in those tight little bicycle shirts with those tight shirts and sexy sexy helmets.

Do you know what has never occurred to me--or them--one single time????

That they might be targets for unwanted attention, sexual harassment or rape.

Do you know why that is?

 

[Toni]

Another example, admittedly to do with behaviour not dress, is a young woman, who has consumed alcohol, going to a bedroom at a party with a young man, that she doesn't know all that well, who has also consumed alcohol, for kissing and cuddling.

We all know how that one goes. Doesn't matter. If she's raped, it's his fault. Correct.

But at the same time, what parent in their right mind would not, if given the opportunity beforehand, just say nothing about the potential risks of that to a teenage daughter, assuming that the prospect of it is fairly new to her and she's not wise to all the risks (slightly different story if it isn't and she is perhaps).

Controversial perhaps. I'm just being honest. I'd say something. It would almost certainly be all about the risks that the boy might do something wrong or bad. It wouldn't be about fault on my daughter's part, though I might mention exercising caution and personal responsibility.

In any case, if I have a raped daughter, who to blame is not going to be my number 1 problem or the one I give most of a dang about. It's not as if it's going to unrape her.

Really? You wouldn't want the police to catch and arrest her rapist? You know: the one who is to blame?

What is wrong with you????

 

[Toni]

OK, maybe I read sething into the post that wasn't there. I thought you had safety concerns regarding your daughters' choice of outfits.

I do (or did).

But...it wouldn't necessarily be outright sexual assault or rape I was worried about (except perhaps that I may not trust the data on rape and assault, and might be being irrational).

Why not?

Very few girls or women are raped by strangers. Most are raped by people they know socially. Often people who are members of their families or family friends.

So, do you keep your girls extra protected? Dress them in burkas? Ensure they are never alone with anyone male other than yourself?

 

[Toni]

Unwanted attention comes without provocative dress.

Sure. But do things like dress, appearance and behaviour increase unwanted attention (and some of the other things I mentioned)? I don't know. My starting position would be that they do, though I have no probs being persuaded otherwise. I'm aware those things apparently don't affect the chances of being raped or seriously sexually assaulted (when I trust the literature on that, which I admit I sometimes have trouble doing, because at the end of the day if someone is assaulted, the literature is just pieces of paper. I realise I might be being inconsistent and possibly irrational here).

No. Dress and appearance have nothing to do with unwanted attention. High heel shoes can make someone more of a target simply because it is harder to run away in heels. Alcohol/drug consumption does make anyone more vulnerable to any kind of assault or robbery.

You are being irrational but not inconsistently so. You SAY it isn't the fault of the girl or woman for how she dressed or if she went into a bedroom with a stranger because she was drunk and needed to lay down but it's pretty clear from your posts that in fact, you do think that she is to blame for whatever happens.

 

[ruby sparks]

No. Dress and appearance have nothing to do with unwanted attention.

Are you sure that's the case?

Here's a study that says men are more likely to approach a woman faster if she is provocatively dressed, and they were also more inclined to believe that she would have sex with them:

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/0059/f8321af0651a0c9070202d6568902b3b5f73.pdf