Covid-19 miscellany

[DrZoidberg]

The CDC is now recommending that even the vaccinated should start wearing masks again indoors. The delta strain is that pernicious.

Frankly, I'm seeing more and more of the vaccinated are getting pissed off at the unvaccinated. For good reason, I'd say.

What's the reason? I don't get it? The vaccinated will be fine even if they get sick.

Because ALL PEOPLE can spread it to everyone else. Unvaccinated have a higher probability of getting and passing it, but in areas of low vaccination rates, many people spreading it will be vaccinated. In areas of high vaccination rates, it will be spread less and the severity will be less when it is spread. Besides all this, the uncomfortable truth is that people who are vaccinated are going to be more likely to listen to CDC recommendations to mask up while people who are not vaccinated will be more likely to disregard rules, recommendations, and take advantage of not masking up when public places say it is optional. The fakers cannot take advantage of rules if everyone has to mask up indoors.

I don't know how it is in USA now, but in Denmark and Sweden anybody who wants to get vaccinated can get vaccinated now. There's vaccines for everybody who wants it. Free. There's not even a queue any more.

So basically, who cares about protecting people who don't want to be protected? Once everybody who wants to be vaccinated is vaccinated, we can just let it rip. We have to do it as some point. Isn't this a good time? Any scenario where everybody is vaccinated is a pipe dream

 

[bilby]

Because ALL PEOPLE can spread it to everyone else. Unvaccinated have a higher probability of getting and passing it, but in areas of low vaccination rates, many people spreading it will be vaccinated. In areas of high vaccination rates, it will be spread less and the severity will be less when it is spread. Besides all this, the uncomfortable truth is that people who are vaccinated are going to be more likely to listen to CDC recommendations to mask up while people who are not vaccinated will be more likely to disregard rules, recommendations, and take advantage of not masking up when public places say it is optional. The fakers cannot take advantage of rules if everyone has to mask up indoors.

I don't know how it is in USA now, but in Denmark and Sweden anybody who wants to get vaccinated can get vaccinated now. There's vaccines for everybody who wants it. Free. There's not even a queue any more.

So basically, who cares about protecting people who don't want to be protected? Once everybody who wants to be vaccinated is vaccinated, we can just let it rip. We have to do it as some point. Isn't this a good time? Any scenario where everybody is vaccinated is a pipe dream

You need to give Scott Morrison a call. Sell him some vaccines, or maybe just try to clue him in about the responsibilities of a national leader during a pandemic.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Because ALL PEOPLE can spread it to everyone else. Unvaccinated have a higher probability of getting and passing it, but in areas of low vaccination rates, many people spreading it will be vaccinated. In areas of high vaccination rates, it will be spread less and the severity will be less when it is spread. Besides all this, the uncomfortable truth is that people who are vaccinated are going to be more likely to listen to CDC recommendations to mask up while people who are not vaccinated will be more likely to disregard rules, recommendations, and take advantage of not masking up when public places say it is optional. The fakers cannot take advantage of rules if everyone has to mask up indoors.

I don't know how it is in USA now, but in Denmark and Sweden anybody who wants to get vaccinated can get vaccinated now. There's vaccines for everybody who wants it. Free. There's not even a queue any more.

So basically, who cares about protecting people who don't want to be protected? Once everybody who wants to be vaccinated is vaccinated, we can just let it rip. We have to do it as some point. Isn't this a good time? Any scenario where everybody is vaccinated is a pipe dream

You need to give Scott Morrison a call. Sell him some vaccines, or maybe just try to clue him in about the responsibilities of a national leader during a pandemic.

I've wondered about that. How come Australia sucks so much when it comes to getting their people vaccinated? It's hardly a question of money. Australia is not a poor country.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Because ALL PEOPLE can spread it to everyone else. Unvaccinated have a higher probability of getting and passing it, but in areas of low vaccination rates, many people spreading it will be vaccinated. In areas of high vaccination rates, it will be spread less and the severity will be less when it is spread. Besides all this, the uncomfortable truth is that people who are vaccinated are going to be more likely to listen to CDC recommendations to mask up while people who are not vaccinated will be more likely to disregard rules, recommendations, and take advantage of not masking up when public places say it is optional. The fakers cannot take advantage of rules if everyone has to mask up indoors.

I don't know how it is in USA now, but in Denmark and Sweden anybody who wants to get vaccinated can get vaccinated now. There's vaccines for everybody who wants it. Free. There's not even a queue any more.

So basically, who cares about protecting people who don't want to be protected?

Are you seriously still on this bullshit. It appears Delta is as transmissible as the Measles and the vaccinated can contract it as well. Your argument was bullshit to start with, and we are seeing exactly why people should have immediately been vaccinated to prevent this from occurring. At this point, it appears everyone in the US will now get Covid-19.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Because ALL PEOPLE can spread it to everyone else. Unvaccinated have a higher probability of getting and passing it, but in areas of low vaccination rates, many people spreading it will be vaccinated. In areas of high vaccination rates, it will be spread less and the severity will be less when it is spread. Besides all this, the uncomfortable truth is that people who are vaccinated are going to be more likely to listen to CDC recommendations to mask up while people who are not vaccinated will be more likely to disregard rules, recommendations, and take advantage of not masking up when public places say it is optional. The fakers cannot take advantage of rules if everyone has to mask up indoors.

I don't know how it is in USA now, but in Denmark and Sweden anybody who wants to get vaccinated can get vaccinated now. There's vaccines for everybody who wants it. Free. There's not even a queue any more.

So basically, who cares about protecting people who don't want to be protected?

Are you seriously still on this bullshit. It appears Delta is as transmissible as the Measles and the vaccinated can contract it as well. Your argument was bullshit to start with, and we are seeing exactly why people should have immediately been vaccinated to prevent this from occurring. At this point, it appears everyone in the US will now get Covid-19.

Again, so what? Delta isn't going to kill anybody vaccinated. It's spread is so great by now there's no lockdowns that can stop it. If we can't stop it, then why bother slowing it down? Why not let it rip? At this point, what's the benefit to anybody if we manage to slow it down? What's your end goal here?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Are you seriously still on this bullshit. It appears Delta is as transmissible as the Measles and the vaccinated can contract it as well. Your argument was bullshit to start with, and we are seeing exactly why people should have immediately been vaccinated to prevent this from occurring. At this point, it appears everyone in the US will now get Covid-19.

Again, so what? Delta isn't going to kill anybody vaccinated.

I keep forgetting it is death or nothing. Why do you keep asking the same question that has been answered dozens of times.

Mutations, more spread, strain on the health care system. Is this so hard to remember? The CDC is saying this is chicken pox grade contractibility.

Why is your response always centered on narcissism? If Delta gets to the vaccinated, that means those in the health care fields (especially hospitals) are at risk.

 

[ZiprHead]

Randi Rhodes, Florida resident and talk show host, has tested positive for covid. She is dully vaccinated.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Are you seriously still on this bullshit. It appears Delta is as transmissible as the Measles and the vaccinated can contract it as well. Your argument was bullshit to start with, and we are seeing exactly why people should have immediately been vaccinated to prevent this from occurring. At this point, it appears everyone in the US will now get Covid-19.

Again, so what? Delta isn't going to kill anybody vaccinated. It's spread is so great by now there's no lockdowns that can stop it. If we can't stop it, then why bother slowing it down? Why not let it rip? At this point, what's the benefit to anybody if we manage to slow it down? What's your end goal here?

You seem to be engaging in a false dichotomy. Sweden, I guess, is a small place relatively. Same with Denmark. The US has 50 states. Between the extremes of "letting it rip" and lockdowns are actually letting it rip in places like Vermont and other states where vaccination rates are high. And that is what the CDC recommendation is, sort of, when they are not advocating for mask wearing of vaccinated in those regions. Now, other states, such as Arkansas have made laws to stop localities from implementing mask-wearing at all. The CDC is recommending in low vaccinated areas like Arkansas that vaccinated people ought to wear masks inside. They haven't said anything about a full-blown lockdown. It's to stop the spread and rise of deaths, new variants, and full hospitals. Who does this save potentially?

• Random people who just get it by coincidence but no longer have a spot in a hospital (or ICU);
• Yes, people who are not vaccinated because they are dumbasses;
• Children who are less than 13 who cannot be vaccinated yet;
• People with immune problems who were vaccinated but get the virus anyway;
• EVERYONE on the planet who could suffer from a newly created variant that is even more resistant to the vaccine than Delta is because you want to eliminate giant petri dishes of virus mutation.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Are you seriously still on this bullshit. It appears Delta is as transmissible as the Measles and the vaccinated can contract it as well. Your argument was bullshit to start with, and we are seeing exactly why people should have immediately been vaccinated to prevent this from occurring. At this point, it appears everyone in the US will now get Covid-19.

Again, so what? Delta isn't going to kill anybody vaccinated.

I keep forgetting it is death or nothing. Why do you keep asking the same question that has been answered dozens of times.

Mutations, more spread, strain on the health care system. Is this so hard to remember? The CDC is saying this is chicken pox grade contractibility.

Why is your response always centered on narcissism? If Delta gets to the vaccinated, that means those in the health care fields (especially hospitals) are at risk.

I don't think that's true. When vaccinated people get any variant of Covid-19 it's just a common flu.

I'll reformulate the question, what's your arguments for the delta variant being dangerous to the vaccinated? I haven't seen any.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Are you seriously still on this bullshit. It appears Delta is as transmissible as the Measles and the vaccinated can contract it as well. Your argument was bullshit to start with, and we are seeing exactly why people should have immediately been vaccinated to prevent this from occurring. At this point, it appears everyone in the US will now get Covid-19.

Again, so what? Delta isn't going to kill anybody vaccinated. It's spread is so great by now there's no lockdowns that can stop it. If we can't stop it, then why bother slowing it down? Why not let it rip? At this point, what's the benefit to anybody if we manage to slow it down? What's your end goal here?

You seem to be engaging in a false dichotomy. Sweden, I guess, is a small place relatively. Same with Denmark. The US has 50 states. Between the extremes of "letting it rip" and lockdowns are actually letting it rip in places like Vermont and other states where vaccination rates are high. And that is what the CDC recommendation is, sort of, when they are not advocating for mask wearing of vaccinated in those regions. Now, other states, such as Arkansas have made laws to stop localities from implementing mask-wearing at all. The CDC is recommending in low vaccinated areas like Arkansas that vaccinated people ought to wear masks inside. They haven't said anything about a full-blown lockdown. It's to stop the spread and rise of deaths, new variants, and full hospitals. Who does this save potentially?

• Random people who just get it by coincidence but no longer have a spot in a hospital (or ICU);
• Yes, people who are not vaccinated because they are dumbasses;
• Children who are less than 13 who cannot be vaccinated yet;
• People with immune problems who were vaccinated but get the virus anyway;
• EVERYONE on the planet who could suffer from a newly created variant that is even more resistant to the vaccine than Delta is because you want to eliminate giant petri dishes of virus mutation.

I see an America where the anti-vaxxers are gleefully having fun, while immuno-suppressed people have to greatly limit their exposure because of the idiots outside the door. The good news, hopefully is that outdoors is still safe, but things like grocery shopping might become a danger to life for those people. So not only are you not that well, but you have to make even more sacrifices while Dr. Zoidberg defends the assholes that are literally impacting the lives of millions all the while also dragging the economy down.

My mother (widow going on 17 months) is immuno-suppressed and has respiratory problems. Many of the sacrifices I have made were to ensure, to the best I could, that I didn't get sick so she wouldn't get sick. I know a lot of people are in the same shoes. Health care, home care, family.

Dr. Zoidberg's 'let them kill themselves' plan is about as well thought out as taking a piss on the third rail.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I keep forgetting it is death or nothing. Why do you keep asking the same question that has been answered dozens of times.

Mutations, more spread, strain on the health care system. Is this so hard to remember? The CDC is saying this is chicken pox grade contractibility.

Why is your response always centered on narcissism? If Delta gets to the vaccinated, that means those in the health care fields (especially hospitals) are at risk.

I don't think that's true.

That's nice to have an opinion.

When vaccinated people get any variant of Covid-19 it's just a common flu.

Can't wait to see your data. The vaccine works substantially at preventing serious cases requiring hospitalizations. It also reduces symptomatic cases. There is no data on "long-Covid" effects. There is no data on immuno-suppressed vaccinated people.

I'll reformulate the question, what's your arguments for the delta variant being dangerous to the vaccinated? I haven't seen any.

Because some people are vaccinated but immuno-suppressed. We don't know if they can afford to contract Covid-19. And I can't risk the health of my last surviving parent. Nor do we want to burn out our health care system. Nor do we want to bury more people. The anti-vaxxer's are responsible for over a point in drop in the expected GDP last quarter. They are killing Americans and hurting our economy. There is no angle where the anti-vaxxers are a positive, other in the deluded minds of some people.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Are you seriously still on this bullshit. It appears Delta is as transmissible as the Measles and the vaccinated can contract it as well. Your argument was bullshit to start with, and we are seeing exactly why people should have immediately been vaccinated to prevent this from occurring. At this point, it appears everyone in the US will now get Covid-19.

Again, so what? Delta isn't going to kill anybody vaccinated. It's spread is so great by now there's no lockdowns that can stop it. If we can't stop it, then why bother slowing it down? Why not let it rip? At this point, what's the benefit to anybody if we manage to slow it down? What's your end goal here?

You seem to be engaging in a false dichotomy. Sweden, I guess, is a small place relatively. Same with Denmark. The US has 50 states. Between the extremes of "letting it rip" and lockdowns are actually letting it rip in places like Vermont and other states where vaccination rates are high. And that is what the CDC recommendation is, sort of, when they are not advocating for mask wearing of vaccinated in those regions. Now, other states, such as Arkansas have made laws to stop localities from implementing mask-wearing at all. The CDC is recommending in low vaccinated areas like Arkansas that vaccinated people ought to wear masks inside. They haven't said anything about a full-blown lockdown. It's to stop the spread and rise of deaths, new variants, and full hospitals. Who does this save potentially?

• Random people who just get it by coincidence but no longer have a spot in a hospital (or ICU);
• Yes, people who are not vaccinated because they are dumbasses;
• Children who are less than 13 who cannot be vaccinated yet;
• People with immune problems who were vaccinated but get the virus anyway;
• EVERYONE on the planet who could suffer from a newly created variant that is even more resistant to the vaccine than Delta is because you want to eliminate giant petri dishes of virus mutation.

USA has vaccination rates comparable to Europe. I think that any American who really wants to get vaccinated can get vaccinated. Am I wrong?

https://ourworldindata.org/explorer...WE~DNK~IDN&Metric=People+vaccinated+(by+dose)

We're not going to eliminate the giant petri dish of mutation. That's a pipe dream.

We have a significant part of the population who are antivaxxers. That's just something we need to work around.

I was all for lockdowns and strict measures a year ago. I was for it up until about May this year. After that it had diminishing returns. And now I think it's dumb. Now I think we're continuing the strict lockdown strategy out of habit or because of some sunk cost fallacy in operation.

Wasn't the whole point of vaccinations so that we wouldn't need to lockdown?

 

[DrZoidberg]

I'll reformulate the question, what's your arguments for the delta variant being dangerous to the vaccinated? I haven't seen any.

Because some people are vaccinated but immuno-suppressed. We don't know if they can afford to contract Covid-19. And I can't risk the health of my last surviving parent. Nor do we want to burn out our health care system. Nor do we want to bury more people. The anti-vaxxer's are responsible for over a point in drop in the expected GDP last quarter. They are killing Americans and hurting our economy. There is no angle where the anti-vaxxers are a positive, other in the deluded minds of some people.

I'm sorry, but those are irrational arguments from emotion. Why would we burn out the health care system because of vaccinated people who get Covid? They're not going to hospital.

Imuno suppressed people can die from all manner of shit.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'll reformulate the question, what's your arguments for the delta variant being dangerous to the vaccinated? I haven't seen any.

Because some people are vaccinated but immuno-suppressed. We don't know if they can afford to contract Covid-19. And I can't risk the health of my last surviving parent. Nor do we want to burn out our health care system. Nor do we want to bury more people. The anti-vaxxer's are responsible for over a point in drop in the expected GDP last quarter. They are killing Americans and hurting our economy. There is no angle where the anti-vaxxers are a positive, other in the deluded minds of some people.

I'm sorry, but those are irrational arguments from emotion.

You seem to be confusing data points with emotion.

Why would we burn out the health care system because of vaccinated people who get Covid? They're not going to hospital.

1) If all people (vax or unvax'd) can spread the disease, then more people get the disease, a lot more, as vax'd are ~80% likely not to have any symptoms.

2) If Delta gets to the vaccinated, then there will be a small number of vaccinated people in the hospital, on top of the increased unvaccinated people in the hospital. They put the R0 around 8 to 9!

Imuno suppressed people can die from all manner of shit.

That's dickish trolling.

 

[DrZoidberg]

2) If Delta gets to the vaccinated, then there will be a small number of vaccinated people in the hospital, on top of the increased unvaccinated people in the hospital. They put the R0 around 8 to 9!

That's just false. The vaccinated people are NOT going to hospital. They're NOT dying from Covid. They can still get it, and they can still spread it. But they're not dying or being hospitalized. Which was the whole point of getting people vaccinated to begin with.

Imuno suppressed people can die from all manner of shit.

That's trolling.

I'm sorry you think reality is harassing you. Must be rough.

 

[repoman]

That's nice to have an opinion.

When vaccinated people get any variant of Covid-19 it's just a common flu.

Can't wait to see your data. The vaccine works substantially at preventing serious cases requiring hospitalizations. It also reduces symptomatic cases. There is no data on "long-Covid" effects. There is no data on immuno-suppressed vaccinated people.

I'll reformulate the question, what's your arguments for the delta variant being dangerous to the vaccinated? I haven't seen any.

Because some people are vaccinated but immuno-suppressed. We don't know if they can afford to contract Covid-19. And I can't risk the health of my last surviving parent. Nor do we want to burn out our health care system. Nor do we want to bury more people. The anti-vaxxer's are responsible for over a point in drop in the expected GDP last quarter. They are killing Americans and hurting our economy. There is no angle where the anti-vaxxers are a positive, other in the deluded minds of some people.

Have you talked with your family doctor about getting medication in your possession (or a standing pharmacy order) for your remaining parent to take at first onset of Covid-19 symptoms? HOURS matter for this disease. Get symptoms at 6 pm on a Friday and unless you can call your doctor outside of office hours you need to rely on the emergency room people to get the CORRECT medicine to slash risk. That or wait 60+ hours.

Get first Covid symptoms Friday night and die or on Monday morning and live. Not to mention that Delta seems to cut two days off of incubation period.

I assume you have a pulse oximeter and thermometers.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

That's just false. The vaccinated people are NOT going to hospital.

You are correct, your statement is false. The CDC data getting leaked indicates that there is a ten fold increase in protection from requiring hospitalization when vaccinated. That means a minority of people that are vaccinated and get the virus do need hospitalization. And that number is larger for Delta than earlier strains.

They're NOT dying from Covid.

For the most part they aren't dying. Congrats on providing a truthful statement.

They can still get it, and they can still spread it. But they're not dying or being hospitalized.

Well, you got one in a row. Again, a minority of them need hospitalization. And that number is small relative to the unvax'd. But it is a number of people regardless. So more unvax'd will need hospitalization and more vax'd need hospitalization. And with transmission so much easier, the spread will be much faster... causing potential strain on the health care system, especially using the Dr. Zoidberg's HASP.

That's trolling.

I'm sorry you think reality is harassing you. Must be rough.

No, going through the loss of my father in March 2020, and the 24 month run-up to it was rough. Having to cope with his loss in a pandemic and not able to get out was rough. Having people be oblivious why I wouldn't want to put my surviving mother (or other people with family members with not great health or on medications that reduce their immune system) at risk is more frustrating than rough.

 

[TSwizzle]

No, going through the loss of my father in March 2020, and the 24 month run-up to it was rough. Having to cope with his loss in a pandemic and not able to get out was rough. Having people be oblivious why I wouldn't want to put my surviving mother (or other people with family members with not great health or on medications that reduce their immune system) at risk is more frustrating than rough.

Stay home if the outside world is so dangerous for you. The world does not revolve around your mother.

 

[Shadowy Man]

I think that any American who really wants to get vaccinated can get vaccinated. Am I wrong?

Yes. You are wrong. My kids can’t get vaccinated and I really want them to. So they are still vulnerable even though I am vaccinated. If all the adults who could get vaccinated would do so then I would feel much better about the remote, but non-zero, chance I could bring the virus to my kids.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

You seem to be engaging in a false dichotomy. Sweden, I guess, is a small place relatively. Same with Denmark. The US has 50 states. Between the extremes of "letting it rip" and lockdowns are actually letting it rip in places like Vermont and other states where vaccination rates are high. And that is what the CDC recommendation is, sort of, when they are not advocating for mask wearing of vaccinated in those regions. Now, other states, such as Arkansas have made laws to stop localities from implementing mask-wearing at all. The CDC is recommending in low vaccinated areas like Arkansas that vaccinated people ought to wear masks inside. They haven't said anything about a full-blown lockdown. It's to stop the spread and rise of deaths, new variants, and full hospitals. Who does this save potentially?

• Random people who just get it by coincidence but no longer have a spot in a hospital (or ICU);
• Yes, people who are not vaccinated because they are dumbasses;
• Children who are less than 13 who cannot be vaccinated yet;
• People with immune problems who were vaccinated but get the virus anyway;
• EVERYONE on the planet who could suffer from a newly created variant that is even more resistant to the vaccine than Delta is because you want to eliminate giant petri dishes of virus mutation.

USA has vaccination rates comparable to Europe. I think that any American who really wants to get vaccinated can get vaccinated. Am I wrong?

https://ourworldindata.org/explorer...WE~DNK~IDN&Metric=People+vaccinated+(by+dose)

Yes, you are wrong for two reasons:
1. That isn't completely relevant to the issue.
2. People under 13 cannot get vaccinated.

We're not going to eliminate the giant petri dish of mutation. That's a pipe dream.

You are engaging in a false dichotomy again, this time between completely negligent and completely eliminating something. We can try very hard and therefore significantly mitigate risk which is in between those two extremes. So, for example, Vermont which has near 80% vaccination rate hasn't completely eliminated anything but it _has_ neared herd immunity which is very good. There are basically two things to try here:
1. Try to achieve near herd immunity vaccination rate and then LET IT RIP!
2. If your region cannot achieve near herd immunity, then slow the spread by masking up. This way the probability of the region becoming a hotbed of new mutations and hospitalizations will be significantly reduced. Excess deaths are being avoided.

We have a significant part of the population who are antivaxxers. That's just something we need to work around.

Yes and the way to work around it can be different according to the dynamics of the population, such as not worrying about it as much when you have achieved herd immunity and worrying about it more when you haven't, i.e. and then acting on those concerns by masking up indoors when low vaccination rates.

I was all for lockdowns and strict measures a year ago. I was for it up until about May this year. After that it had diminishing returns.

And that may very well be true for the specific regions you live in or neighboring you. However, there are NOT "diminishing returns" in Arkansas, Alabama, Georgia, or a number of US states where vaccination rates are low and hospitalizations, deaths, cases, ICU bed usages, ventilators are all increasing. Right now, Arkansas has 97% ICU bed usage and it is getting worse. Asking people to mask up indoors is not extreme and will help to reduce the spread in such a hotbed area.

And now I think it's dumb. Now I think we're continuing the strict lockdown strategy out of habit or because of some sunk cost fallacy in operation.

Wasn't the whole point of vaccinations so that we wouldn't need to lockdown?

No, the point of vaccinations are so that we do not have a significant number of excess deaths in society. Places like Vermont (and perhaps regions of Sweden or Denmark) may not need to mask up because they will not experience significant excess deaths due to being vaccinated. But other places will experience significant excess deaths and so putting other things in place while convincing people to get vaccinated makes sense.