Covid-19 miscellany

[untermensche]

The fascist government makes me wear pants in public.

Where do they get that right?

 

[repoman]

Alright can we grunts in the system get off each others throats for a minute and look at how these vaccine studies were conducted?

You know, get back to basics of looking askance at multinational corporations like you used to do ten years ago.

 

[DrZoidberg]

It's insane calling my position libertarian. You're so off the rails now.

Your post has no substance. You've completely lost the argument you created.

This thread is actually an excellent example of the situation for anti-vaxxers. The majority is so convinced they are right that they forget the most basic aspects and the foundation of liberal democracy. When you lose the argument you turn it around and claim you won it with the knowledge that those who agree with your scientific position will slap you on the back and support you. Is it because you are feeling guilty, perhaps?

I agree with your scientific position. I think everyone should get vaccinated.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Alright can we grunts in the system get off each others throats for a minute and look at how these vaccine studies were conducted?

You know, get back to basics of looking askance at multinational corporations like you used to do ten years ago.

For once in history big pharma shared data and cooperated for the good of humanity. In spite of what they might have done historicaly they truly are heroes this time around IMHO. It might also have something to do with that it was raining money on all of them and they had less reason to compete. But anyway

 

[bilby]

Alright can we grunts in the system get off each others throats for a minute and look at how these vaccine studies were conducted?

You know, get back to basics of looking askance at multinational corporations like you used to do ten years ago.

Well I just had my second shot of AstraZeneca (literally - I am waiting out the mandatory 20 minutes as I type this).

My vaccine was developed by Oxford University in association with a number of government and charitable funding bodies.

The commercial element is in manufacturing and distribution, and came after development and clinical trials.

I would have preferred Pfizer, (or Moderna, but that's still not available in Australia having only received TGA approval a couple of days ago).

But only because I think mRNA vaccines are a way cool idea.

 

[repoman]

I had two shots of Pfizer and about 5-6 weeks later I developed tinnitus.

Interesting connection or maybe not:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizer%E2%80%93BioNTech_COVID-19_vaccine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MT-RNR1

The modRNA sequence of the vaccine is 4,284 nucleotides long.[77] It consists of a five-prime cap; a five prime untranslated region derived from the sequence of human alpha globin; a signal peptide (bases 55–102) and two proline substitutions (K986P and V987P, designated "2P") that cause the spike to adopt a prefusion-stabilized conformation reducing the membrane fusion ability, increasing expression and stimulating neutralizing antibodies;[24][78] a codon-optimized gene of the full-length spike protein of SARS-CoV-2 (bases 103–3879); followed by a three prime untranslated region (bases 3880–4174) combined from AES and mtRNR1 selected for increased protein expression and mRNA stability[79] and a poly(A) tail comprising 30 adenosine residues, a 10-nucleotide linker sequence, and 70 other adenosine residues (bases 4175–4284).[77] The sequence contains no uridine residues; they are replaced by 1-methyl-3'-pseudouridylyl.[77] The 2P proline substitutions in the spike proteins were originally developed for a MERS vaccine by researchers at the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases' Vaccine Research Center, Scripps Research, and Jason McLellan's team (at the University of Texas at Austin, previously at Dartmouth College).

Pathogenic mutations in the MT-RNR1 gene have been found to cause late-onset Mitochondrial Nonsyndromic Hearing Loss and Deafness with predisposed aminoglycoside ototoxicities.[7] Nonsyndromic Deafness is characterized by a partial or total sensorineural hearing loss (SNHL) of variable onset and severity that is not associated with other signs and symptoms.[8] Most forms of nonsyndromic deafness are associated with permanent hearing loss caused by damage to structures in the inner ear.[2][3] Mutations of 1494C>T, 1555A>G, and 1095T>C in the MT-RNR1 gene have been identified to cause the hearing loss.[9][10][11]

 

[Trausti]

The fascist government makes me wear pants in public.

Where do they get that right?

Not in Seattle.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It's insane calling my position libertarian. You're so off the rails now.

Your post has no substance. You've completely lost the argument you created.

This thread is actually an excellent example of the situation for anti-vaxxers. The majority is so convinced they are right that they forget the most basic aspects and the foundation of liberal democracy. When you lose the argument you turn it around and claim you won it with the knowledge that those who agree with your scientific position will slap you on the back and support you. Is it because you are feeling guilty, perhaps?

I agree with your scientific position. I think everyone should get vaccinated.

Yeah, that last sentence you state comes out with the same exclamation as if your were to say, I think everyone should eat enough fruits and veggies.

 

[DrZoidberg]

This thread is actually an excellent example of the situation for anti-vaxxers. The majority is so convinced they are right that they forget the most basic aspects and the foundation of liberal democracy. When you lose the argument you turn it around and claim you won it with the knowledge that those who agree with your scientific position will slap you on the back and support you. Is it because you are feeling guilty, perhaps?

I agree with your scientific position. I think everyone should get vaccinated.

Yeah, that last sentence you state comes out with the same exclamation as if your were to say, I think everyone should eat enough fruits and veggies.

Don't make the mistake that I don't understand the seriousness of the situation. I'm not defending the rights of anti-vaxxers because I don't think we have anything to worry about, or that I think they may be right. I think they're wrong. I do think we have a lot to worry about. Millions have died. Many more will die before this is over. I think it's a catastrophe that so many chose not to get vaccinated. I'm also NOT a libertarian. I'm not for liberty no matter the cost. I do think personal freedoms can be curtailed in extreme situations. I think the state can seize personal property in some cases. I'm quite lefty. I'm NOT on team TSwizzle. I think he's wrong.

But I do think there's too many antivaxxers for the majority to just run them over. I don't think it can be politically justified. Like it or not, anti-vaxxers are NOT some fringe group of extremists. They're a substantial group in society. A substantial minority. Their beliefs deserve respect for that reason alone. The last thing we want to do is to fuse them into a coherent political group and give them a victim card to play. I think that will cause more long term damage than the virus ever will. It's the job of democratically elected leaders to represent ALL of their constituents.

As pandemic goes Covid-19 is quite mild. 4.3 million dead out of a total population of 7.8 billion isn't enough to warrant extreme measures curtailing political freedoms IMHO. Especially not considering that the most of those who died were 80+ and were hanging on by a thread anyway. I'm not saying it's nothing, or that Covid-19 isn't serious. Only that it could be a hell of a lot worse. In a situation like this, the severity of the situation is not enough to force anyone to do anything, IMHO. We can suggest. But I think using force is off the table. That includes bullying. Like drastically curtailing movement freedoms or requiring testing every couple of days. We need to leave anti-vaxxers the fuck alone now.

The only thing I think it warranted, given the situation, is to ask anti-vaxxers nicely and try to convince them to get with the program and join team reality. And if they don't, I think we need to accept it and stop nagging them. It sucks. But it is what it is.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

This thread is actually an excellent example of the situation for anti-vaxxers. The majority is so convinced they are right that they forget the most basic aspects and the foundation of liberal democracy. When you lose the argument you turn it around and claim you won it with the knowledge that those who agree with your scientific position will slap you on the back and support you. Is it because you are feeling guilty, perhaps?

I agree with your scientific position. I think everyone should get vaccinated.

Yeah, that last sentence you state comes out with the same exclamation as if your were to say, I think everyone should eat enough fruits and veggies.

Don't make the mistake that I don't understand the seriousness of the situation. I'm not defending the rights of anti-vaxxers because I don't think we have anything to worry about, or that I think they may be right. I think they're wrong. I do think we have a lot to worry about. Millions have died. Many more will die before this is over. I think it's a catastrophe that so many chose not to get vaccinated. I'm also NOT a libertarian. I'm not for liberty no matter the cost.

As long as you aren't paying it?

But I do think there's too many antivaxxers for the majority to just run them over. I don't think it can be politically justified. Like it or not, anti-vaxxers are NOT some fringe group of extremists. They're a substantial group in society. A substantial minority. Their beliefs deserve respect for that reason alone. The last thing we want to do is to fuse them into a coherent political group and give them a victim card to play. I think that will cause more long term damage than the virus ever will. It's the job of democratically elected leaders to represent ALL of their constituents.

Except the ones that died needlessly of course.

As pandemic goes Covid-19 is quite mild. 4.3 million dead out of a total population of 7.8 billion isn't enough to warrant extreme measures curtailing political freedoms IMHO.

Yeah... the whole mutation argument has been explained a billion times and we needed to finish immunizing us so we could immunize the rest of the world, so that 30 year olds don't start dying at rates like the 80 year olds were. But we can't have nice things.

Especially not considering that the most of those who died were 80+ and were hanging on by a thread anyway.

No, no they weren't. These people weren't running marathons, but many of them were alive and well enough.

I'm not saying it's nothing, or that Covid-19 isn't serious. Only that it could be a hell of a lot worse. In a situation like this, the severity of the situation is not enough to force anyone to do anything, IMHO. We can suggest. But I think using force is off the table. That includes bullying. Like drastically curtailing movement freedoms or requiring testing every couple of days. We need to leave anti-vaxxers the fuck alone now.

The only thing I think it warranted, given the situation, is to ask anti-vaxxers nicely and try to convince them to get with the program and join team reality. And if they don't, I think we need to accept it and stop nagging them. It sucks. But it is what it is.

Yes, we need to come up with compelling arguments to persuade the people that think the Democrats were running a child sex ring out of a pizzeria. Not enough of them are dying, so they don't care. You can't change apathy's mind without a lot of time.

So here we are, sorry the economy isn't getting better quicker, sorry those people died, sorry the health care professionals only got a breather instead of seeing the pandemic dropped to its knees in the US. We need to coddle people who aren't taking the vaccine because of assholes on the Internet, Cable News, and the AM Radio, by not only allowing them not to be vaccinated, but to not have to deal with any consequence of that decision they freely made. What's that called, oh yeah, tyranny of the minority.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Don't make the mistake that I don't understand the seriousness of the situation. I'm not defending the rights of anti-vaxxers because I don't think we have anything to worry about, or that I think they may be right. I think they're wrong. I do think we have a lot to worry about. Millions have died. Many more will die before this is over. I think it's a catastrophe that so many chose not to get vaccinated. I'm also NOT a libertarian. I'm not for liberty no matter the cost.

As long as you aren't paying it?

What's that supposed to mean?

But I do think there's too many antivaxxers for the majority to just run them over. I don't think it can be politically justified. Like it or not, anti-vaxxers are NOT some fringe group of extremists. They're a substantial group in society. A substantial minority. Their beliefs deserve respect for that reason alone. The last thing we want to do is to fuse them into a coherent political group and give them a victim card to play. I think that will cause more long term damage than the virus ever will. It's the job of democratically elected leaders to represent ALL of their constituents.

Except the ones that died needlessly of course.

Welcome to the wonderful world of politics.

As pandemic goes Covid-19 is quite mild. 4.3 million dead out of a total population of 7.8 billion isn't enough to warrant extreme measures curtailing political freedoms IMHO.

Yeah... the whole mutation argument has been explained a billion times and we needed to finish immunizing us so we could immunize the rest of the world, so that 30 year olds don't start dying at rates like the 80 year olds were. But we can't have nice things.

Especially not considering that the most of those who died were 80+ and were hanging on by a thread anyway.

No, no they weren't. These people weren't running marathons, but many of them were alive and well enough.

The operative word is "most". Tens of thousands of perfectly healthy people also died. Children, etc. It's a tragedy.

I'm not saying it's nothing, or that Covid-19 isn't serious. Only that it could be a hell of a lot worse. In a situation like this, the severity of the situation is not enough to force anyone to do anything, IMHO. We can suggest. But I think using force is off the table. That includes bullying. Like drastically curtailing movement freedoms or requiring testing every couple of days. We need to leave anti-vaxxers the fuck alone now.

The only thing I think it warranted, given the situation, is to ask anti-vaxxers nicely and try to convince them to get with the program and join team reality. And if they don't, I think we need to accept it and stop nagging them. It sucks. But it is what it is.

Yes, we need to come up with compelling arguments to persuade the people that think the Democrats were running a child sex ring out of a pizzeria. Not enough of them are dying, so they don't care. You can't change apathy's mind without a lot of time.

So here we are, sorry the economy isn't getting better quicker, sorry those people died, sorry the health care professionals only got a breather instead of seeing the pandemic dropped to its knees in the US. We need to coddle people who aren't taking the vaccine because of assholes on the Internet, Cable News, and the AM Radio, by not only allowing them not to be vaccinated, but to not have to deal with any consequence of that decision they freely made. What's that called, oh yeah, tyranny of the minority.

Respecting the views of 20% of the population isn't to coddle them. These are sane reasonably well adjusted normal people who have reached another conclusion than you. Framing the the majority refraining from tyranny as the tyranny of the minority is stupid. Unless they're in control of the military, they're not going to terrorize anybody into obedience.

 

[Worldtraveller]

I think the rub here is the 'freedumb no matter the cost'.

Really? Because at some point, you're cost could bankrupt the world.

I feel that in many case, freedom (usually to do something stupid) trumps nanny state laws, but only if it doesn't significantly impact others.

I'll give you an example: seatbelt and motorcycle helmet laws. I think one (as an adult, I'm ok with those laws for under 18) should have the right not to wear a seatbelt or a motorcycle helmet. Sure, it might make everyone's insurance premiums slightly higher, but that's not a significant burden on society, and those without seatbelts or helmets don't represent a significant threat to others by their actions.

The situation with COVID is quite different in terms of cost (just financial cost) and threat. If you can't see that or see that it is actually the government's responsibility to draw that line somewhere, even if we don't always agree with it, then you're not a liberal, you're an anarchist.

 

[Shadowy Man]

And smokers, who aren’t a fringe minority either, should have the freedom to smoke wherever they want. If they want to put themselves at risk of lung cancer that’s their own choice. And if you want to avoid smelling like smoke or getting negative health consequences from second hand smoke you can just stay at home. Why should they suffer under the tyranny of non-smokers?

 

[DrZoidberg]

And smokers, who aren’t a fringe minority either, should have the freedom to smoke wherever they want. If they want to put themselves at risk of lung cancer that’s their own choice. And if you want to avoid smelling like smoke or getting negative health consequences from second hand smoke you can just stay at home. Why should they suffer under the tyranny of non-smokers?

I also think that the bullying of smokers in Europe has gone to far. I'm not a smoker and I have never been. I think it's a disgrace how we are treating smokers. It's not like the people who never smoke will live forever. The way we treat them today is absurd. In Sweden now smokers aren't even allowed to smoke in restaurants outdoors. That's too far IMHO

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

What's that supposed to mean?

You dead? You work in the hospitals? What price are you willing to pay, that you are actually paying?

No, no they weren't. These people weren't running marathons, but many of them were alive and well enough.

The operative word is "most". Tens of thousands of perfectly healthy people also died. Children, etc. It's a tragedy.

Again, you state that, without any citations.

Yes, we need to come up with compelling arguments to persuade the people that think the Democrats were running a child sex ring out of a pizzeria. Not enough of them are dying, so they don't care. You can't change apathy's mind without a lot of time.

So here we are, sorry the economy isn't getting better quicker, sorry those people died, sorry the health care professionals only got a breather instead of seeing the pandemic dropped to its knees in the US. We need to coddle people who aren't taking the vaccine because of assholes on the Internet, Cable News, and the AM Radio, by not only allowing them not to be vaccinated, but to not have to deal with any consequence of that decision they freely made. What's that called, oh yeah, tyranny of the minority.

Respecting the views of 20% of the population isn't to coddle them.

Yes it is. It is coddling a ranting and raving toddler and giving into their demand. They ain't learnin' and their behavior is being normalized. Kind of what makes them a brat.

These are sane reasonably well adjusted normal people who have reached another conclusion than you.

Not me... peer reviewed professionals. This isn't about me. Other than how their decisions are fucking with my options and my liberty.

Framing the the majority refraining from tyranny as the tyranny of the minority is stupid. Unless they're in control of the military, they're not going to terrorize anybody into obedience.

They have a hold on the economy spigot at the moment. Their decisions are directly impacting the lives of 300+ million Americans.

 

[Shadowy Man]

And smokers, who aren’t a fringe minority either, should have the freedom to smoke wherever they want. If they want to put themselves at risk of lung cancer that’s their own choice. And if you want to avoid smelling like smoke or getting negative health consequences from second hand smoke you can just stay at home. Why should they suffer under the tyranny of non-smokers?

I also think that the bullying of smokers in Europe has gone to far. I'm not a smoker and I have never been. I think it's a disgrace how we are treating smokers. It's not like the people who never smoke will live forever. The way we treat them today is absurd. In Sweden now smokers aren't even allowed to smoke in restaurants outdoors. That's too far IMHO

Why shouldn’t they get to smoke indoors at restaurants too? Or anywhere they want for that matter?

 

[Toni]

I think the rub here is the 'freedumb no matter the cost'.

Really? Because at some point, you're cost could bankrupt the world.

I feel that in many case, freedom (usually to do something stupid) trumps nanny state laws, but only if it doesn't significantly impact others.

I'll give you an example: seatbelt and motorcycle helmet laws. I think one (as an adult, I'm ok with those laws for under 18) should have the right not to wear a seatbelt or a motorcycle helmet. Sure, it might make everyone's insurance premiums slightly higher, but that's not a significant burden on society, and those without seatbelts or helmets don't represent a significant threat to others by their actions.

The situation with COVID is quite different in terms of cost (just financial cost) and threat. If you can't see that or see that it is actually the government's responsibility to draw that line somewhere, even if we don't always agree with it, then you're not a liberal, you're an anarchist.

Locally, there was a very recent crash, involving 2 cars, 3 victims, one who is dead (so far) and the other two, seriously injured. The dead guy wasn't wearing a seat belt. Neither was the person in worst shape but (as I write this) currently among the living. The third person, also in critical condition, was wearing a seat belt. She lost her husband. Her children lost their father. Judging by the number of tributes on Facebook, a lot of people are mourning the loss of a beloved friend, brother, cousin, uncle, etc. There's a GoFundMe set up to help cover the hospital costs and funeral costs.

There's also the trauma that the nurses and doctors and first responders go through every time they deal with this sort of thing.

It's not a 'no cost to anyone else situation.

 

[repoman]

So Joe Rogan popped off as usual about Covid vaccination last week and his quick take was not informed except by horse sense, lol.

But I did find an interesting video by the legitimate researcher from Penn State he is quoting from the same year as the 2015 paper

Some Vaccines Support Evolution of More-Virulent Viruses: Video



But covid is not a hot pathogen like ebola that has an insanely high fatality rate. At 3:55 he says it is imperative that ebola vaccines under trial are not leaky. If ebola could be pushed to higher transmissibility at the same virulence, heaven help us.

Here is the peer reviewed paper

https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198


A full lecture by Andrew Read that is being combed over for gotcha moments, mostly out of context:

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

And smokers, who aren’t a fringe minority either, should have the freedom to smoke wherever they want. If they want to put themselves at risk of lung cancer that’s their own choice. And if you want to avoid smelling like smoke or getting negative health consequences from second hand smoke you can just stay at home. Why should they suffer under the tyranny of non-smokers?

I also think that the bullying of smokers in Europe has gone to far. I'm not a smoker and I have never been. I think it's a disgrace how we are treating smokers. It's not like the people who never smoke will live forever. The way we treat them today is absurd. In Sweden now smokers aren't even allowed to smoke in restaurants outdoors. That's too far IMHO

Let's dig in to your "humble opinion." It sounds like you might be okay with restaurants disallowing smokers from smoking inside or some other disallowance. But then it hits some personal threshold for you. You don't run around screaming that you hate "liberal democracy" because you are okay with restaurants banning smokers inside (or whatever disallowance you are okay with). But then later once it gets past your personal threshold, you start attacking people who do not share your view as "far left" or haters of liberalism or whatever it is. BUT what is your technical rationale for placing the threshold where you have it? Second-hand smoke is obviously a bigger deal inside than it is outside on average, though also depending on seating arrangements and wind factors etc, it can be worse for some individuals in particular circumstances in outside seating, but I would never try to argue on average it's worse outside. That said, even if it's worse inside, for what technical reason is it suddenly acceptable to you for it being outside and all the people who want it banned illiberal undemocratic jerks? Please explain.

 

[Playball40]

where are there flu vaccine mandates?

At various hospitals, for employees. Since covid is worse risk than flu, it makes sense covid vaccine mandates would be bigger in scope.

Not just hospitals but a lot of health care facilities. In my opinion, ALL ethical health care facilities mandate for all employees with exceptions for those with a valid medical reason to not be vaccinated. My employer mandates flu vaccines annually and also Hep B if you haven't already been vaccinated. They have mandated COVID19 since the vaccines became available. All these vaccinations are done in the work place, on company time. It's an expectation, just as it's an expectation that children are vaccinated against various illnesses before attending school or daycare. Or college.

Don't forget the military mandates all kinds of inoculations.