Covid-19 miscellany

[ZiprHead]

Jesus Fucking Christ!

Nurse in Germany suspected of replacing Covid vaccines with saline solution
Authorities say about 8,600 people may have been affected

 

[repoman]

Get ready for Molnupiravir, not some old possibly repurposed cheap drug with a long safety record.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molnupiravir

Molnupiravir (development codes MK-4482 and EIDD-2801) is an experimental antiviral drug which is orally active and was developed for the treatment of influenza. It is a prodrug of the synthetic nucleoside derivative N4-hydroxycytidine, and exerts its antiviral action through introduction of copying errors during viral RNA replication.
The drug was developed at Emory University by the university's drug innovation company, Drug Innovation Ventures at Emory (DRIVE). It was then acquired by Miami-based company Ridgeback Biotherapeutics, who later partnered with Merck & Co. to develop the drug further.

In April 2020, a whistleblower complaint by former Head of US Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority (BARDA) Rick Bright revealed concerns over providing funding for the further development of molnupiravir due to similar drugs having mutagenic (DNA damaging) properties.[3] A previous company, Pharmasset, that had investigated the drug's active ingredient had abandoned it. These claims were denied by George Painter, CEO of DRIVE, noting that toxicity studies on molnupiravir had been carried out and data provided to regulators in the US and UK, who permitted safety studies in humans to move forward in the spring of 2020. Also at this time, DRIVE and Ridgeback Biotherapeutics stated they planned future safety studies in animals

In late July 2020 Merck, which had been partnering with Ridgeback Biotherapeutics on developing the drug, announced its intention to move molnupiravir to late stage trials beginning in September 2020.[5] On October 19 2020, Merck began a one year Stage 2/3 trial focused on hospitalized patients.[6] In June 2021, the US Department of Health and Human Services committed to buy $1.2 billion worth of molnupiravir from Merck if it receives FDA approval

 

[bilby]

What's that supposed to mean?

But I do think there's too many antivaxxers for the majority to just run them over. I don't think it can be politically justified. Like it or not, anti-vaxxers are NOT some fringe group of extremists. They're a substantial group in society. A substantial minority. Their beliefs deserve respect for that reason alone. The last thing we want to do is to fuse them into a coherent political group and give them a victim card to play. I think that will cause more long term damage than the virus ever will. It's the job of democratically elected leaders to represent ALL of their constituents.

Except the ones that died needlessly of course.

Welcome to the wonderful world of politics.

As pandemic goes Covid-19 is quite mild. 4.3 million dead out of a total population of 7.8 billion isn't enough to warrant extreme measures curtailing political freedoms IMHO.

Yeah... the whole mutation argument has been explained a billion times and we needed to finish immunizing us so we could immunize the rest of the world, so that 30 year olds don't start dying at rates like the 80 year olds were. But we can't have nice things.

Especially not considering that the most of those who died were 80+ and were hanging on by a thread anyway.

No, no they weren't. These people weren't running marathons, but many of them were alive and well enough.

The operative word is "most". Tens of thousands of perfectly healthy people also died. Children, etc. It's a tragedy.

I'm not saying it's nothing, or that Covid-19 isn't serious. Only that it could be a hell of a lot worse. In a situation like this, the severity of the situation is not enough to force anyone to do anything, IMHO. We can suggest. But I think using force is off the table. That includes bullying. Like drastically curtailing movement freedoms or requiring testing every couple of days. We need to leave anti-vaxxers the fuck alone now.

The only thing I think it warranted, given the situation, is to ask anti-vaxxers nicely and try to convince them to get with the program and join team reality. And if they don't, I think we need to accept it and stop nagging them. It sucks. But it is what it is.

Yes, we need to come up with compelling arguments to persuade the people that think the Democrats were running a child sex ring out of a pizzeria. Not enough of them are dying, so they don't care. You can't change apathy's mind without a lot of time.

So here we are, sorry the economy isn't getting better quicker, sorry those people died, sorry the health care professionals only got a breather instead of seeing the pandemic dropped to its knees in the US. We need to coddle people who aren't taking the vaccine because of assholes on the Internet, Cable News, and the AM Radio, by not only allowing them not to be vaccinated, but to not have to deal with any consequence of that decision they freely made. What's that called, oh yeah, tyranny of the minority.

Respecting the views of 20% of the population isn't to coddle them. These are sane reasonably well adjusted normal people who have reached another conclusion than you. Framing the the majority refraining from tyranny as the tyranny of the minority is stupid. Unless they're in control of the military, they're not going to terrorize anybody into obedience.

Their conclusion is objectively, testably, and demonstrably wrong.

Would you have us modify the space program to take account of the opinions of flat-Earthers?

Opinions should be respected - until they collide with reality. Reality exists. There are plenty of things that are not matters of opinion, just matters of right or wrong.

 

[bilby]

Not just hospitals but a lot of health care facilities. In my opinion, ALL ethical health care facilities mandate for all employees with exceptions for those with a valid medical reason to not be vaccinated. My employer mandates flu vaccines annually and also Hep B if you haven't already been vaccinated. They have mandated COVID19 since the vaccines became available. All these vaccinations are done in the work place, on company time. It's an expectation, just as it's an expectation that children are vaccinated against various illnesses before attending school or daycare. Or college.

Don't forget the military mandates all kinds of inoculations.

I recently applied for a job with Queensland Health. Not a job that involved interacting with patients, but an IT job, based on a large hospital campus. It was made explicit on the job advertisement that the successful applicant would be required, before they could start work, to be vaccinated against Measles, Mumps, Rubella, Varicella, Pertussis, and Hepatitis B; And that a mandatory Covid vaccination would be required no later than September 1st (reflecting the Covid vaccine supply issues due to Federal government incompetence here in Australia).

 

[TomC]

This thread is actually an excellent example of the situation for anti-vaxxers. The majority is so convinced they are right that they forget the most basic aspects and the foundation of liberal democracy. When you lose the argument you turn it around and claim you won it with the knowledge that those who agree with your scientific position will slap you on the back and support you. Is it because you are feeling guilty, perhaps?

I agree with your scientific position. I think everyone should get vaccinated.

Yeah, that last sentence you state comes out with the same exclamation as if your were to say, I think everyone should eat enough fruits and veggies.

Don't make the mistake that I don't understand the seriousness of the situation. I'm not defending the rights of anti-vaxxers because I don't think we have anything to worry about, or that I think they may be right. I think they're wrong. I do think we have a lot to worry about. Millions have died. Many more will die before this is over. I think it's a catastrophe that so many chose not to get vaccinated. I'm also NOT a libertarian. I'm not for liberty no matter the cost. I do think personal freedoms can be curtailed in extreme situations. I think the state can seize personal property in some cases. I'm quite lefty. I'm NOT on team TSwizzle. I think he's wrong.

But I do think there's too many antivaxxers for the majority to just run them over. I don't think it can be politically justified. Like it or not, anti-vaxxers are NOT some fringe group of extremists. They're a substantial group in society. A substantial minority. Their beliefs deserve respect for that reason alone. The last thing we want to do is to fuse them into a coherent political group and give them a victim card to play. I think that will cause more long term damage than the virus ever will. It's the job of democratically elected leaders to represent ALL of their constituents.

As pandemic goes Covid-19 is quite mild. 4.3 million dead out of a total population of 7.8 billion isn't enough to warrant extreme measures curtailing political freedoms IMHO. Especially not considering that the most of those who died were 80+ and were hanging on by a thread anyway. I'm not saying it's nothing, or that Covid-19 isn't serious. Only that it could be a hell of a lot worse. In a situation like this, the severity of the situation is not enough to force anyone to do anything, IMHO. We can suggest. But I think using force is off the table. That includes bullying. Like drastically curtailing movement freedoms or requiring testing every couple of days. We need to leave anti-vaxxers the fuck alone now.

The only thing I think it warranted, given the situation, is to ask anti-vaxxers nicely and try to convince them to get with the program and join team reality. And if they don't, I think we need to accept it and stop nagging them. It sucks. But it is what it is.

I'm on board with most of this post.
One possible disagreement is your use of the word "we".

I'm no fan of giving the government power to force or forbid people's behavior. Sometimes, but mostly not. Not in the case of vaccination. However, I'm generally fine with individuals applying social pressures within limits. If a restaurant or cruise ship requires vaccination to be serviced, so be it. If a music venue or bar require vaccination or masking, so be it. If an employer, even the government as an employer, requires vaccination, so be it.

People have the moral right to choose against vaccination, and also the right to avoid unvaccinated people. For whatever reason, we all have those rights.

To go back to the smoking example, I've paid a lot extra on insurance because I smoke and have most of my adult life. I don't like it, but I don't consider it unfair. I chose what I chose and paid for it. I suppose I could have lied about it, but that's just not how I do things. I was more angry when the city outlawed all smoking in any public building, no matter what. I knew my customers didn't like it. So I paid a good deal of money to change my shop's ventilation system. All the air came up in the front showroom and exhausted through the back. A few years later, some flunky fire inspector from the city saw the ashtray on my desk. He got testy. I showed him the ventilation system. He threatened me with a fine if he ever saw an ashtray indoors again.

I considered spraying him with my high performance fire extinguisher to prove it worked. But I didn't.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I do see young people as different from adults. Artificially tweaking their developing bodies isn't the same as doing so to a fully developed adult. They have so much life ahead of them. Using extra care before giving them such a shot makes very good sense to me.

We have decades of experience with other immunizations, like polio and rubella and tetanus and such. That's just not true of this one. I'm fine with CDC recommendations on the subject.
Tom

The reason it isn't approved for children is that it hasn't been tested in them, yet. A drug company can't get approval for a drug in a population that it didn't test. This doesn't mean it won't work or that it's higher risk.

As the vaccine companies test it in younger people the approval age will drop. Eventually they'll find a minimum age but that's due to ineffectiveness, not risk. Many vaccines simply don't take in babies.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It’s not about some “right” to have parents say what their kids can wear…. It never was.


View attachment 34813

Oh, come on now, you can do better than that!

Microbikini bottom + pasties!

And omit the pasties if you're in a topfree state.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The fascist government makes me wear pants in public.

Where do they get that right?

1) The US government does not make you wear pants. That's purely a matter of state law.

2) I consider it government overreach in most situations.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The fascist government makes me wear pants in public.

Where do they get that right?

1) The US government does not make you wear pants. That's purely a matter of state law.

2) I consider it government overreach in most situations.

You are thinking of Gov. Cuomo.

 

[crazyfingers]

Back in May when it looked like vaccinations would go smoothly I got tickets for my two boys and me to go see the Dead and Company at the Xfinity Center in Mansfield MA on Sept 2 and 3. 19K capacity.

This is a mostly outside venue but there are still seat assignments. We are in the open air sections. We are vaccinated but my wife might be home from Canada then finally and she has not been able to get the shots in Canada. So she would be vulnerable and we know that there are breakthroughs and none of us want to get it.

There are many outside concerts around Boston this summer. Concerts at Fenway Park and the Xfinity Center. I'm watching the news on anything about the risks.

I am preparing myself that I will probably decide that I need to just eat the $800 I spend on the tickets if I think that I don't want to risk it.

And FUCK the anti-vaxers. Make them stay home.

I just got an email from the Dead and Company.

They are now requiring ticket holders to provide proof of full vaccination or negative COVID-19 diagnostic test within 48-hours prior to entry, except where prohibited by law. More details will be sent to ticket holders via email. Of course this will significantly slow entry into the facility. For any screening like this ID's will need to be checked.

There is no doubt we'll masks in line to get in. But I am feeling a bit better about going. But the un-vaxed are still the cause of this. This shit should be over by now but for the un-vaxed.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I was looking forward to Playhouse Square opening back up again... and now... I think the anti-vaxxers have fucked that too. But it isn't official yet.

 

[horhangi]

California just mandated that all employees of school districts provide proof of vaccination or have weekly tests. I can not be happier. I teach in a middle school in CA. We have been in school now for 4 weeks; we are one of the earliest school districts in starting the year and oddly have not been in the news. We have multiple cases of positive tests of students at most if not all schools. Masks are mandated indoors with students present, but optional without students if all adults are vaccinated. The kicker is vaccination is medical history so we can not ask if another teacher is vaccinated. Mostly we accept that we are working with colleagues who are educated and have done the right thing; get vaccinated. But, I know from inquiries into the rights of employees under the union that I have on my campus teachers who are not vaccinated and are seeking exemptions to the requirement for masks indoors.
Why would you want to be in a classroom with 30+ students unvaccinated and without a mask?
I have 2 students in quarantine because they have tested positive for Covid. I know this because when they test positive I have to provide a list of students who sit within 6 feet of them in class.
I have to return to the hell of virtual meetings for the parent open house tomorrow. I am done with talking to computer screens as part of my job.
If people do not want to get vaccinated they can suffer the social ostracism. I am done with suffering the stupidity of the scientifically illiterate.
Bring on the vaxID. I will proudly show mine. Hell I took a pic of my vax card and have it on my phone to show proof. I have the fax record of my son schools required and I don’t see how this is different.

Edited to correct typo x2

 

[repoman]

California just mandated that all employees of school districts provide proof of vaccination or have weekly tests. I can not be happier. I teach in a middle school in CA. We have been in school now for 4 weeks; we are one of the earliest school districts in starting the year and oddly have not been in the news. We have multiple cases of positive tests of students at most if not all schools. Masks are mandated indoors with students present, but optional without students if all adults are vaccinated. The kicker is vaccination is medical history so we can not ask if another teacher is vaccinated. Mostly we accept that we are working with colleagues who are educated and have done the right thing; get vaccinated. But, I know from inquiries into the rights of employees under the union that I have on my campus teachers who are not vaccinated and are seeking exemptions to the requirement for masks indoors.
Why would you want to be in a classroom with 30+ students unvaccinated and without a mask?
I have 2 students in quarantine because they have tested positive for Covid. I know this because when they test positive I have to provide a list of students who sit within 6 feet of them in class.
I have to return to the hell of virtual meetings for the parent open house tomorrow. I am done with talking to computer screens as part of my job.
If people do not want to get vaccinated they can suffer the social ostracism. I am done with suffering the stupidity of the scientifically illiterate.
Bring on the vaxID. I will proudly show mine. Hell I took a pic of my vax card and have it on my phone to show proof. I have the fax record of my son schools required and I don’t see how this is different.

Edited to correct typo x2

ok, so you will probably get covid asymptomatically and spread it anyways.

 

[horhangi]

This is a possibility under our current protocols. Which is why I think our current protocols are stupid. It is also why I welcome the mandate to be vaccinated or tested weekly. I do not think that is enough, but it is a start.
My school districts current protocols are:
Vaccinated and close contact with no symptoms:continue attending class. No requirement for testing. THIS IS STUPID.
Unvaccinated and close contact with no symptoms: continue attending class and test every other day.
Unvaccinated and refuse testing protocol: isolate from school for 10 days; no test required for return.

Requiring all employees to provide proof of vaccination or a weekly test is a step in the right direction.

ETA: have symptoms isolate and be tested. Don’t know how I forgot to include that.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The operative word is "most". Tens of thousands of perfectly healthy people also died. Children, etc. It's a tragedy.

Again, you state that, without any citations.

I just emphasized the danger of Covid-19, agreeing with you, and you're demanding citations. If you're not aware of how dangerous Covid-19 is, then why are you so upset about anti-vaxxers?

Yes, we need to come up with compelling arguments to persuade the people that think the Democrats were running a child sex ring out of a pizzeria. Not enough of them are dying, so they don't care. You can't change apathy's mind without a lot of time.

So here we are, sorry the economy isn't getting better quicker, sorry those people died, sorry the health care professionals only got a breather instead of seeing the pandemic dropped to its knees in the US. We need to coddle people who aren't taking the vaccine because of assholes on the Internet, Cable News, and the AM Radio, by not only allowing them not to be vaccinated, but to not have to deal with any consequence of that decision they freely made. What's that called, oh yeah, tyranny of the minority.

Respecting the views of 20% of the population isn't to coddle them.

Yes it is. It is coddling a ranting and raving toddler and giving into their demand. They ain't learnin' and their behavior is being normalized. Kind of what makes them a brat.

[removed]
You're literally saying that a considerable proportion of people don't deserve to have their rights defended (rights of bodily autonomy) and us enlightened ones should be free to force them to behave in a different way... for their own good.

Please enlighten me, how that isn't fascism? Isn't that a more dangerous position to normalise?

[removed]

These are sane reasonably well adjusted normal people who have reached another conclusion than you.

Not me... peer reviewed professionals. This isn't about me. Other than how their decisions are fucking with my options and my liberty.

Framing the the majority refraining from tyranny as the tyranny of the minority is stupid. Unless they're in control of the military, they're not going to terrorize anybody into obedience.

They have a hold on the economy spigot at the moment. Their decisions are directly impacting the lives of 300+ million Americans.

I'm sorry, but that's delusional. In what way are they in control of the economy? You sound like a conspiracy theorist.

 

[barbos]

DrZoidberg, Your wishy-washy "liberalism" is annoying. We had mandatory vaccines before this pandemics.
And people generally do not have liberty to dump poison into rivers or in the air. The only complicating factor here is that vaccine is considered experimental. So unless you have never taken any kind of medication you have no right to refuse a vaccine which is way safer than the most drugs which require prescription.
Here is my solution, you are allowed to refuse vaccination but then you lose access to any drug you might need in the future, including the ones which treat your C19 infection. These anti-vaxers who suddenly start believing in modern medicine after they got sick should just die without any help, period. That's what they all say before getting sick.

 

[Swammerdami]

I admit I find the latest sub-debate hard to follow. I thought of posing some questions ("Is it fascist to insist on vaccination for measles without a medical exemption?") but was afraid I'd get no answers. So just tell me if the following summary is more-or-less correct.

If the danger of Covid-19 is less than 0.87 on some scale (never mind the details) than only a fascist government would mandate vaccines or masks. But if the danger is greater than 0.87 then it is those refusing masks or vaccines who are the fascists. Is that about right?


There are millions of Republicans who still think Obama was born in Kenya. Are they "sane, normal and well-adjusted"?

Respecting the views of 20% of the population isn't to coddle them. These are sane reasonably well adjusted normal people who have reached another conclusion than you.

Cite?

 

[DrZoidberg]

DrZoidberg, Your wishy-washy "liberalism" is annoying. We had mandatory vaccines before this pandemics.
And people generally do not have liberty to dump poison into rivers or in the air. The only complicating factor here is that vaccine is considered experimental. So unless you have never taken any kind of medication you have no right to refuse a vaccine which is way safer than the most drugs which require prescription.

You are committing the black and white fallacy. I can be cool about not censoring video game violence without actually hating children.

When Covid-19 we didn't know how dangerous it was. Draconic measures were justified.
When we knew how dangerous Covid-19 was, we calibrated measures of force to match the requirements. Also justified.
But now we have vaccines. Mortality rate in western countries has hit the floor. The health care systems are no longer at a risk of being overwhelmed. We have a good understanding of the epidemiology of Covid-19. Covid-19 is no longer a global emergency. It's a local emergency in those countries who haven't had max vaccinations yet. Now Covid-19 is in the bag of all the other diseases that kill people and we don't need to treat Covid-19 as a special category.

Just this spring and earlier I supported the use of force to protect people. But now I think that time has passed. It's time to return to normalcy. Without good reason it's not morally justified to force people, and we don't have good reason any more IMHO.

https://www.fallacyfiles.org/either...guments that,gray is an available alternative.

[removed]

 

[DrZoidberg]

I admit I find the latest sub-debate hard to follow. I thought of posing some questions ("Is it fascist to insist on vaccination for measles without a medical exemption?") but was afraid I'd get no answers. So just tell me if the following summary is more-or-less correct.

If the danger of Covid-19 is less than 0.87 on some scale (never mind the details) than only a fascist government would mandate vaccines or masks. But if the danger is greater than 0.87 then it is those refusing masks or vaccines who are the fascists. Is that about right?

Sure. The metric and breakoff point we chose is somewhat arbitrary. The degree of force used has to be in proportion to the danger to the risk posed. At some point we go from protecting the public to being fascist idiots. In Europe I think we're crossing that boundary now.

Mask requirement is such a low bar on force scale that I thought those whining about having to use masks were always pathetic. Even now I'd support masking if the government recommended it. But when it comes to injecting things into our bodies the requirement for justification goes up steeply. That limit goes somewhere around corpses lying in the street. Bodily autonomy is sacred in liberal democracies. I think it's good to keep it sacred.

There are millions of Republicans who still think Obama was born in Kenya. Are they "sane, normal and well-adjusted"?

Yes. I think so. These people looked at the available data and reached a different conclusion than you (or I). That's got to be allowed in a democracy. I think we both can agree on that they're idiots. But they're probably able to hold onto a job, and might even be able to raise a family. Which is all I demand to give somebody a free pass on the sanity scale.

Respecting the views of 20% of the population isn't to coddle them. These are sane reasonably well adjusted normal people who have reached another conclusion than you.

Cite?

I've seen a bunch of different numbers. I assume they're different because they ask different questions. About 30% are cautious about vaccines and won't take them unless there's a life threatening reason to do so. So calling them all anti-vaxxers is a bit flippant. These people have trust issues about the government. And that's probably a healthy dose of skepticism to have in any society. Me personally, I have high trust in the medical community and the CDC. But that's me. I'm not going to force those who don't agree with me to comply. I think that's fascism.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/10/biden-covid-vaccine-anti-vaxxers-us.html

 

[barbos]

DrZoidberg, Your wishy-washy "liberalism" is annoying. We had mandatory vaccines before this pandemics.
And people generally do not have liberty to dump poison into rivers or in the air. The only complicating factor here is that vaccine is considered experimental. So unless you have never taken any kind of medication you have no right to refuse a vaccine which is way safer than the most drugs which require prescription.

You are committing the black and white fallacy. I can be cool about not censoring video game violence without actually hating children.

When Covid-19 we didn't know how dangerous it was. Draconic measures were justified.
When we knew how dangerous Covid-19 was, we calibrated measures of force to match the requirements. Also justified.
But now we have vaccines. Mortality rate in western countries has hit the floor. The health care systems are no longer at a risk of being overwhelmed. We have a good understanding of the epidemiology of Covid-19. Covid-19 is no longer a global emergency. It's a local emergency in those countries who haven't had max vaccinations yet. Now Covid-19 is in the bag of all the other diseases that kill people and we don't need to treat Covid-19 as a special category.

Wow, that's even rosier picture than I expected from you. You seems to be counting deaths only, when in reality we know that even mild cases of C19 are bad in a long run. 70% of all infections develop long, potentially lifelong complications.

Just this spring and earlier I supported the use of force to protect people. But now I think that time has passed. It's time to return to normalcy. Without good reason it's not morally justified to force people, and we don't have good reason any more IMHO.

https://www.fallacyfiles.org/either...guments that,gray is an available alternative.

Here is my solution, you are allowed to refuse vaccination but then you lose access to any drug you might need in the future, including the ones which treat your C19 infection. These anti-vaxers who suddenly start believing in modern medicine after they got sick should just die without any help, period. That's what they all say before getting sick.

[removed] What a surprise that the Putin apologetic supports fascism.

Putin actually is pretty liberal when it comes to C19. No mandatory vaccinations and for the most of the country no masks in reality.
And Russia is quickly approaching US/EU in death rate.