• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Covid-19 miscellany

DrZoidberg said:
Elixir said:
repoman said:
For the vaccinated, where the vaccine worked and was recent enough, is coming into contact with the delta variant a positive for themselves?

Very low chance of getting very sick and they will make an immune response that is tailor to delta. Then months from now upon getting a variant that is based off of delta then THAT natural response will effectively have been a booster shot. Whereas getting vaccinated and not getting delta now means delta++ months from now will kick their ass.
Click to expand...

If that's the case, then the "best" vaccine is the Pfizer, because it is only 46% effective against infection after 6 months, but still effective against severe illness. Everyone who was vaccinated with the Pfizer vaccine has a moral obligation to get infected with the Delta variant and go around coughing on anti-vaxers for their own good, before Delta++ or - heaven forbid - the Epsilon Variant - comes along and polishes them off.
Click to expand...

Those effectiveness numbers are pulled out of the ass. The different trials conducted them differently, so they can't be compared. Pfizer for instance only tested people in the test with flu symptoms. J&J tested everybody regularly. Unsurprisingly Pfizer offers a better protection. No it doesn't. It's just manipulation with numbers. We also don't want to use these numbers as any basis with which we make any policies because then we're encouraging big pharma to be less honest in number reporting.
Click to expand...

Pfizer pulled this shit with statins. Complete corruption.



Also the fact that there is not a centralized, consistent way to run these studies for all the different vaccines is pathetic.
 
crazyfingers said:
barbos said:
DrZoidberg, Your wishy-washy "liberalism" is annoying. We had mandatory vaccines before this pandemics.
Click to expand...

Yes. I got a letter from the public school earlier this year that my kid needs to have his Meningococcal serogroup ACWY booster shot before returning the school in the fall. There is a laundry list of vaccines that are required. In a sane world Covid would be just one more.
Click to expand...

That's very interesting. Sweden has a high trust in government. But we have no mandatory vaccinations for children. It's recommended. And pretty much everybody does it. Except the anti-vaxxers of course. I always assumed they'd be optional in the land of the free as well.

I'm a bit split on the issue because I think the government should be able to override idiot parents when it comes to the protection of their children's lives. So I guess, I'm not the perfect liberal.
 
Elixir said:
repoman said:
Pfizer pulled this shit with statins. Complete corruption.
Click to expand...

They did corrupt shit to make the Moderna vaccine look more effective against infection than their own?
Such clever boys...
Click to expand...

Some stuff about Dr. Demasi:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryanne_Demasi

Statin report
Demasi produced and presented two controversial episodes on the science program Catalyst, called "The Heart of the Matter",[3] in October 2013, which questioned the link between cholesterol, cholesterol-reducing medication and ill-health.[4] A large number of individuals and professional organisations within the medical and scientific community responded to the show negatively[5] and the National Heart Foundation of Australia published a nine-page rebuttal of the claims presented in the program.[6] Demasi was accused of bias by ABC's MediaWatch program[7] and received criticism from national newspapers for incomplete and biased coverage of life-threatening health issues.[8][9][10] In response to these allegations, Demasi said that participants in the program had been presented with her material and agreed with her interpretation.[11] The National Heart Foundation responded, saying that Demasi had not presented the research,[12] ignored and misinterpreted the information provided and selectively edited quotes to invert their meaning. In May 2014 the ABC removed the two episodes from its website.[13] after an internal review found that both programs met the ABC editorial standards for factual accuracy, though a section in the second episode breached standards of impartiality. The report also found that the programs were not found to cause any undue harm to the public and took adequate steps to ensure people did not cease their medications without consulting their doctor.[14] Despite the finding of the ABC's report, The Medical Journal of Australia (MJA) claimed that there was a temporary increase in discontinuation of statins and a sustained decrease in the dispensing of statins immediately following the broadcast of the program.[15]

Demasi disputed claims that her program "could cause death" and published a rebuttal.[16] According to a Cochrane systematic review on statins for the primary prevention of cardiovascular disease (CVD), "the decision for patients at low risk for CVD to initiate or continue statin therapy for primary prevention remains under the purview of patients and their physicians".[17]
Click to expand...

https://retractionwatch.com/2018/05...list-admits-to-duplication-in-her-phd-thesis/

This article is a bit long. It details some allegations that question her credibility and ethics.

Speaking only for myself, I am almost always skeptical of claims by experts on youtube unless they are closely affiliated with an institution I recognize as highly reliable.
 
DrZoidberg said:
crazyfingers said:
barbos said:
DrZoidberg, Your wishy-washy "liberalism" is annoying. We had mandatory vaccines before this pandemics.
Click to expand...

Yes. I got a letter from the public school earlier this year that my kid needs to have his Meningococcal serogroup ACWY booster shot before returning the school in the fall. There is a laundry list of vaccines that are required. In a sane world Covid would be just one more.
Click to expand...

That's very interesting. Sweden has a high trust in government. But we have no mandatory vaccinations for children. It's recommended. And pretty much everybody does it. Except the anti-vaxxers of course. I always assumed they'd be optional in the land of the free as well.

I'm a bit split on the issue because I think the government should be able to override idiot parents when it comes to the protection of their children's lives. So I guess, I'm not the perfect liberal.
Click to expand...
Sweden, like other nordic countries. relies on peer and cultural pressure to conform. You are not true liberal democracies.
In a true liberal democracy like US, every redneck would do the opposite of what opposing party suggests he should do.
 
repoman said:
Elixir said:
repoman said:
Pfizer pulled this shit with statins. Complete corruption.
Click to expand...

They did corrupt shit to make the Moderna vaccine look more effective against infection than their own?
Such clever boys...
Click to expand...

The video is pretty damning.
Click to expand...

I know that statins have been a target of misinformation and disinformation for years - decades actually.
Stopped taking them myself when I resumed a solid exercise regimen a couple of years ago, after tapering off on them for a few years prior.
When I first told my primary doc I wasn't taking them any more, he argued against stopping, but a year or two later he was ambivalent and now he's fairly dead set against them except as a last resort, and then only as an object of hope.

These vaccines are not statins, nor do they address a similar market.
 
DrZoidberg said:
crazyfingers said:
barbos said:
DrZoidberg, Your wishy-washy "liberalism" is annoying. We had mandatory vaccines before this pandemics.
Click to expand...

Yes. I got a letter from the public school earlier this year that my kid needs to have his Meningococcal serogroup ACWY booster shot before returning the school in the fall. There is a laundry list of vaccines that are required. In a sane world Covid would be just one more.
Click to expand...

That's very interesting. Sweden has a high trust in government. But we have no mandatory vaccinations for children. It's recommended. And pretty much everybody does it. Except the anti-vaxxers of course. I always assumed they'd be optional in the land of the free as well.

I'm a bit split on the issue because I think the government should be able to override idiot parents when it comes to the protection of their children's lives. So I guess, I'm not the perfect liberal.
Click to expand...
It's the old argument - the good of the many vs the good of the one. In other words, just how much freedom should Typhoid Mary be allowed?

The truth is that we need to curtail some of Typhoid Mary's freedoms for the good of all the other "ones" that are out there. Pragmatism vs ideology.
 
barbos said:
DrZoidberg said:
That's very interesting. Sweden has a high trust in government. But we have no mandatory vaccinations for children. It's recommended. And pretty much everybody does it. Except the anti-vaxxers of course. I always assumed they'd be optional in the land of the free as well.

I'm a bit split on the issue because I think the government should be able to override idiot parents when it comes to the protection of their children's lives. So I guess, I'm not the perfect liberal.
Click to expand...
Sweden, like other nordic countries. relies on peer and cultural pressure to conform. You are not true liberal democracies.
In a true liberal democracy like US, every redneck would do the opposite of what opposing party suggests he should do.
Click to expand...
Would it be better to split hairs and say this isn't about politics but partisanship? The people driving the anti-Covid-19 vaccine are GOP'ers, many of whom almost certainly have been vaccinated.
 
DrZoidberg said:
Shadowy Man said:
DrZoidberg said:
Yes. For example. China shutting down Wuhan last January was extreme and draconian. Also totally justified IMHO. At that point, for all we knew, humanity was on the brink of going extinct. But even milder things, there's a cost benefit analysis. The Danish authorities demanding people to wear masks on subways and in shops until July this year. I was totally behind that. The minor inconvenience vs the large impact on disease containment is justified.

There's also no hard and fast rule. It's a question of individual judgement where the cut off goes. We all get to decide that.

But I think it looks like we've entered a paradigm where any Covid-19 deaths seem to justify any level of force to get people to vaccinated. And that's where I feel the need to put my foot down
Click to expand...

So, to follow your logic and some things you’ve said before: It is ok to ban smokers from smoking inside restaurants but it’s not ok, in a state quickly running out of pediatric ICU beds, to mandate masks be worn in schools? Or require school employees be vaccinated or submit to daily testing?

Am I understanding your positions correctly?
Click to expand...

No, I'm for all of that. I think all of that is justified. I think all of that falls well within reasonable force in order to do damage control. It's down to cost/benefit. The force applied has to be in relation to the freedoms that have been taken away from them.

One caveat though. We can't tell school employees that they have to submit to daily testing and not provide the service for free. If we make it mandatory but don't make it easy for them, then we're bullying them into getting vaccinated, and that's not cool IMHO.

In Germany next month you will have to have a Corona pass in order to live a normal life. You either need a fresh test or proof of vaccination. That sounds reasonable. But they will start charging you for it. So you need to pay €30 every couple of days or so if you work in school. That's where it goes from reasonable force to unreasonable force.
Click to expand...

Ok. Thanks for the clarification because it seemed like maybe you were arguing the other side on this. There are parts of the US where it is indeed still an emergency situation. Governors should not be mandating approaches at the local levels. Each community should be free to decide the best public health measures to take to prevent a highly infectious virus from running rampant through the schools, especially to protect the younger children who can’t get vaccinated regardless of their parents’ beliefs.
 
repoman said:
DrZoidberg said:
Those effectiveness numbers are pulled out of the ass. The different trials conducted them differently, so they can't be compared. Pfizer for instance only tested people in the test with flu symptoms. J&J tested everybody regularly. Unsurprisingly Pfizer offers a better protection. No it doesn't. It's just manipulation with numbers. We also don't want to use these numbers as any basis with which we make any policies because then we're encouraging big pharma to be less honest in number reporting.
Click to expand...

Pfizer pulled this shit with statins. Complete corruption.



Also the fact that there is not a centralized, consistent way to run these studies for all the different vaccines is pathetic.
Click to expand...


Statin report
Demasi produced and presented two controversial episodes on the science program Catalyst, called "The Heart of the Matter",[3] in October 2013, which questioned the link between cholesterol, cholesterol-reducing medication and ill-health.[4] A large number of individuals and professional organisations within the medical and scientific community responded to the show negatively[5] and the National Heart Foundation of Australia published a nine-page rebuttal of the claims presented in the program.[6] Demasi was accused of bias by ABC's MediaWatch program[7] and received criticism from national newspapers for incomplete and biased coverage of life-threatening health issues.[8][9][10] In response to these allegations, Demasi said that participants in the program had been presented with her material and agreed with her interpretation.[11] The National Heart Foundation responded, saying that Demasi had not presented the research,[12] ignored and misinterpreted the information provided and selectively edited quotes to invert their meaning. In May 2014 the ABC removed the two episodes from its website.[13] after an internal review found that both programs met the ABC editorial standards for factual accuracy, though a section in the second episode breached standards of impartiality. The report also found that the programs were not found to cause any undue harm to the public and took adequate steps to ensure people did not cease their medications without consulting their doctor.[14] Despite the finding of the ABC's report, The Medical Journal of Australia (MJA) claimed that there was a temporary increase in discontinuation of statins and a sustained decrease in the dispensing of statins immediately following the broadcast of the program.[15]

Demasi disputed claims that her program "could cause death" and published a rebuttal.[16] According to a Cochrane systematic review on statins for the primary prevention of cardiovascular disease (CVD), "the decision for patients at low risk for CVD to initiate or continue statin therapy for primary prevention remains under the purview of patients and their physicians".[17]
Click to expand...

Then we have this bit of controversy.

"Wi-Fried" episode
Demasi produced a report in a February 2016 episode of Catalyst called "Wi-Fried" on Wi-Fi and cellphone safety. In her report she detailed the scientific debate about health effects from low level exposures and she raised questions about the long term effects of low level microwave exposures in schools. Her report shows a school where the Wi-Fi routers are turned off when not in use to reduce microwave radiation exposure. Her report was described as unbalanced by Media Watch,[18] criticised by the Australian Radiation Protection and Nuclear Safety Agency (ARPANSA)[19] and in the media by groups and scientists who have long believed it is impossible for microwave radiation to have effects at low levels.[20][21][22][23][24] Demasi defended her report in an article in The Guardian[25] and responded to specific criticism in the Huffington Post.[26] Catalyst also defended the episode in a letter to Media Watch.[27] Demasi was stood down as a reporter and the program was placed under review. A public on-air apology statement was broadcast on the ABC on 5 July 2016 and the episode was withdrawn from the ABC's website.
Click to expand...

Damn. Ninja'd by Toni.
 
Shadowy Man said:
DrZoidberg said:
No, I'm for all of that. I think all of that is justified. I think all of that falls well within reasonable force in order to do damage control. It's down to cost/benefit. The force applied has to be in relation to the freedoms that have been taken away from them.

One caveat though. We can't tell school employees that they have to submit to daily testing and not provide the service for free. If we make it mandatory but don't make it easy for them, then we're bullying them into getting vaccinated, and that's not cool IMHO.

In Germany next month you will have to have a Corona pass in order to live a normal life. You either need a fresh test or proof of vaccination. That sounds reasonable. But they will start charging you for it. So you need to pay €30 every couple of days or so if you work in school. That's where it goes from reasonable force to unreasonable force.
Click to expand...

Ok. Thanks for the clarification because it seemed like maybe you were arguing the other side on this. There are parts of the US where it is indeed still an emergency situation. Governors should not be mandating approaches at the local levels. Each community should be free to decide the best public health measures to take to prevent a highly infectious virus from running rampant through the schools, especially to protect the younger children who can’t get vaccinated regardless of their parents’ beliefs.
Click to expand...

In the entire United States, it is still an emergency situation--or about to become one. Because communities and indeed, states are not self contained, there does need to be centralized policy which local communities can make more strict but not less strict.

In other words, a governor can mandate that all state employees be vaccinated or else provide medical documentation from their doctor stating that they cannot be vaccinated. A governor can mandate statewide mask requirements within government buildings or on public properties. A local government can mandate that masks must be worn inside any property open to the public, such as retail establishments, etc. A local government can mandate that municipal employees be vaccinated or provide documentation from their physician that they cannot receive the vaccine. A school board can mandate that its employees be vaccinated with the same exceptions. It can also mandate that all students above whatever the current cutoff age is to be vaccinated but it is much, much, much easier if it comes from the state/governor rather than from the school board. It can mandate that masks be worn inside all school buildings. Where no mask mandates exist, individual businesses can mandate masks for employees and customers.
 
[TWEET]<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The parking lot after a school board meeting last night in Franklin, the wealthiest place in Tennessee. Parents harassed medical professionals who had spoken in favor of masks in schools. “We know who you are. You can leave freely, but we will find you.” <a href="https://t.co/SzR0uvMeE7">pic.twitter.com/SzR0uvMeE7</a></p>— Natalie Allison (@natalie_allison) <a href="https://twitter.com/natalie_allison/status/1425449438202548224?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 11, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>[/TWEET]

Threatening physicians for relaying facts at a school board meeting.

Scumpers.
 
Don't play this at work.

[TWEET]<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I'm here for this. <a href="https://t.co/GABaLDmEbZ">pic.twitter.com/GABaLDmEbZ</a></p>— Travon Free (@Travon) <a href="https://twitter.com/Travon/status/1425524961029013512?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 11, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>[/TWEET]

:clapping:
 
ZiprHead said:
[TWEET]<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The parking lot after a school board meeting last night in Franklin, the wealthiest place in Tennessee. Parents harassed medical professionals who had spoken in favor of masks in schools. “We know who you are. You can leave freely, but we will find you.” <a href="https://t.co/SzR0uvMeE7">pic.twitter.com/SzR0uvMeE7</a></p>— Natalie Allison (@natalie_allison) <a href="https://twitter.com/natalie_allison/status/1425449438202548224?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 11, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>[/TWEET]

Threatening physicians for relaying facts at a school board meeting.

Scumpers.
Click to expand...
Dr. Zoidberg is right. Those people look quite receptive to input and dialogue.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom