Covid-19 miscellany

[Trausti]

WTF is going on here? There are plenty of studies regarding the effectiveness, or not, of ivermectin with Covid. I don’t have a strong opinion either way. But this contagious stupidity that ivermectin doesn’t have antiviral properties is bewildering. Here’s one on the use of ivermectin and dengue virus: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30452439/. So yes, extraordinary ignorance. It’s not like this information is hidden and unavailable from public view.

They used it on infected mosquitos and it reduced the infection rate by as much as 49.63%. That was not the average, that was the best result they could achieve. So the best they could get was a reduction in disease which was less than 50% using it on mosquitos, not on people or lab rats or animals.

Now any sane, rational, unbiased, person of average intelligence and curiosity would look at that study, not at Trausti's asinine claim that it is an effective antiviral, and conclude that it is not in any way an effective, tested antiviral that I should dose myself with.

The same is true for people using bleach, even though we know that disease can be reduced by using bleach, making it also an effective antiviral.

And this is why people are using bleach and ivermectin on themselves, because of claims made by people like Trausti.

So, extraordinary ignorance? You bet, but with a generous helping of extraordinary fraud and sleaze.

That’s all quite correct. Lots of things are “anti-viral”.
Most of them kill people too, if ingested in amounts sufficient to suppress an infection.
Probably safer to shove a big ‘ol UV light up your butt.

Before the recent political push to ridicule anyone who doesn’t follow the herd, ivermectin was described as a wonder drug for its potential use against both RNA and DNA viruses as well as against some cancer. But if you get your news from MSNBC or CNN, you probably wouldn’t know that.

 

[Trausti]

The media really is the enemy of the people.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

That’s all quite correct. Lots of things are “anti-viral”.
Most of them kill people too, if ingested in amounts sufficient to suppress an infection.
Probably safer to shove a big ‘ol UV light up your butt.

Before the recent political push to ridicule anyone who doesn’t follow the herd, ivermectin was described as a wonder drug for its potential use against both RNA and DNA viruses as well as against some cancer. But if you get your news from MSNBC or CNN, you probably wouldn’t know that.

And I was really disappointed to find out that the Lunar landings were all a hoax. I feel your pain.

Do you have a link for your wall of text?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Before the recent political push to ridicule anyone who doesn’t follow the herd, ivermectin was described as a wonder drug for its potential use against both RNA and DNA viruses as well as against some cancer.

 

[Trausti]

That’s all quite correct. Lots of things are “anti-viral”.
Most of them kill people too, if ingested in amounts sufficient to suppress an infection.
Probably safer to shove a big ‘ol UV light up your butt.

Before the recent political push to ridicule anyone who doesn’t follow the herd, ivermectin was described as a wonder drug for its potential use against both RNA and DNA viruses as well as against some cancer. But if you get your news from MSNBC or CNN, you probably wouldn’t know that.

And I was really disappointed to find out that the Lunar landings were all a hoax. I feel your pain.

You easily fell for a hoax story because it fit your biases. My only pain is why some are so gullible.

 

[Trausti]

Before the recent political push to ridicule anyone who doesn’t follow the herd, ivermectin was described as a wonder drug for its potential use against both RNA and DNA viruses as well as against some cancer.

View attachment 35177

Well done. You’ve not refuted anything I wrote; because you can’t: Ivermectin as a Broad-Spectrum Host-Directed Antiviral: The Real Deal?

But he lives rent free in your head.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Leave it to the sensationalist news media to get something wrong. I blame for-profit capitalism trying to make a big buck. Ignoring the sensationalism, there's still an issue Trausti doesn't want to talk about. 2% OF CALLS TO POISON CONTROL WERE FOR THE HORSE DEWORMING DRUG. 2%! It should be 0%. Next topic, the Oklahoma government of Republicans is killing people because of how they are anti-science nincompoops. The effect of the horse deworming drug is much smaller than claimed by the capitalist for-profit news media, but there are still huge problems caused by the Republicans. As much as Trausti wants to scream "Hey look over there!" the Oklahoma problem is with conservatives. They own it.

 

[blastula]

The media really is the enemy of the people.

Don't you mean lügenpresse?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

And I was really disappointed to find out that the Lunar landings were all a hoax. I feel your pain.

You easily fell for a hoax story because it fit your biases. My only pain is why some are so gullible.

And you have no link for your BS claim.

Why do I even ask...

 

[Trausti]

And I was really disappointed to find out that the Lunar landings were all a hoax. I feel your pain.

You easily fell for a hoax story because it fit your biases. My only pain is why some are so gullible.

And you have no link for your BS claim.

Why do I even ask...

What? Check out Zippy’s link and read the new disclaimer.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Before the recent political push to ridicule anyone who doesn’t follow the herd, ivermectin was described as a wonder drug for its potential use against both RNA and DNA viruses as well as against some cancer.

View attachment 35177

Well done. You’ve not refuted anything I wrote; because you can’t: Ivermectin as a Broad-Spectrum Host-Directed Antiviral: The Real Deal?

You are hyping it up before it is proven. You all did the same thing with HCQ. One of these days you'll get it right and scream bias, but the reason you get all the negative feedback is it is not proved and people are using it on their own. FFS, just wait for the science to do its work. Stop being political.

 

[blastula]

Well done. You’ve not refuted anything I wrote; because you can’t: Ivermectin as a Broad-Spectrum Host-Directed Antiviral: The Real Deal?

But he lives rent free in your head.

Aw, poor Trausti, why the long face?

 

[Trausti]

Well done. You’ve not refuted anything I wrote; because you can’t: Ivermectin as a Broad-Spectrum Host-Directed Antiviral: The Real Deal?

You are hyping it up before it is proven. You all did the same thing with HCQ. One of these days you'll get it right and scream bias, but the reason you get all the negative feedback is it is not proved and people are using it on their own. FFS, just wait for the science to do its work. Stop being political.

If you go back a few pages I wrote that I don’t have an opinion either way on its effectiveness. I’ve simply pointed how ignorant and misinformed and gullible some here are on the topic.

 

[Trausti]

Well done. You’ve not refuted anything I wrote; because you can’t: Ivermectin as a Broad-Spectrum Host-Directed Antiviral: The Real Deal?

But he lives rent free in your head.

Aw, poor Trausti, why the long face?

More of a jaw drop.

 

[bilby]

But we have sensibly regulated gun ownership, and even knives are quite tightly controlled, so people largely settle their disputes with fists.

Note that this means right and wrong have little to do with it. In a society such as yours strong and weak is pretty apparent and the weak simply must submit.

That would be true of social interactions that include at least one psychopath, but as such interactions are rare, it's not particularly relevant.

I can't recall the last time anyone demanded my submission to their greater physical strength; But if someone were to do so, they would committing a crime, and both I and they would expect passers-by, the police, and any other citizens to whom I might appeal for help, to support me against them.

Which is one reason why people don't habitually try to strongarm each other around here.

It's called "civilisation"; You should try it some time.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Well done. You’ve not refuted anything I wrote; because you can’t: Ivermectin as a Broad-Spectrum Host-Directed Antiviral: The Real Deal?

You are hyping it up before it is proven. You all did the same thing with HCQ. One of these days you'll get it right and scream bias, but the reason you get all the negative feedback is it is not proved and people are using it on their own. FFS, just wait for the science to do its work. Stop being political.

If you go back a few pages I wrote that I don’t have an opinion either way on its effectiveness. I’ve simply pointed how ignorant and misinformed and gullible some here are on the topic.

*spit take*

 

[lpetrich]

 Virus - viruses' genomes vary quite a lot. Linear or circular, DNA or RNA, double-stranded or single-stranded, single strands having positive or negative "sense" ( Sense (molecular biology)), referring to how directly one can make a protein with that nucleic-acid sequence. Positive-sense RNA: directly, positive-sense DNA: with copying into messenger RNA. Negative sense means another stage of copying is needed.

Cellular organisms a monotonous by comparison: their genomes are exclusively double-stranded DNA without a RNA replication intermediate. Cellular organisms have RNA in a variety of functions, but never as a genome.

Viruses' high mutation rates are due to inadequate proofreading during replication, unlike what cellular organisms have ( Proofreading (biology)). That can make it hard to track down their origins. Viruses also have small genomes relative to cellular organisms, adding some more difficulty.


Turning to ivermectin, I've found Amazon.com : Durvet Ivermectin Paste 1.87% Removes worms and bots - 3 Pack : Sports & Outdoors

• 3 0.21-ounce tubes apple-flavored horses dewormer
• Removes worms and bots from horses with a single dose
• Safe to use on all horses, including broodmares, breeding stallions, and young foals
• Allows horses to reach their full potential by providing effective, safe parasite protection
• Provides effective control of large strongyles, small strongyles, pinworms, ascarids, hairworms, large-mouth stomach worms, bots, lungworms, intestinal threadworms, summer sores and dermatitis in horses
• Age range description: Adolescent

Ivermectin Paste - Durvet does not go into that detail, but it states

Provides effective control of large strongyles, small strongyles, pinworms, ascarids, hairworms, large-mouth stomach worms, bots, lungworms, intestinal threadworms, summer sores and dermatitis in horses.

WARNING! NOT SAFE OR APPROVED FOR HUMAN USE, WHICH COULD CAUSE SEVERE PERSONAL INJURY OR DEATH.

For oral use in horses only.

Do not use in horses intended for human consumption. Not for use in humans. Keep this and all drugs out of reach of children.

Ivermectin Paste for Horses | Horse Dewormers

• Provides effective treatment and control of the following parasites in horses:
  large and small strongyles, pinworms, ascarids, hairworms, large-mouth stomach worms, bots, lungworms, intestinal threadworms and summer sores caused by Habronema and Draschia spp. cutaneous third-stage larvae.
• Removes worms and bots with a single dose!
• Apple-Flavored!
• Safe and effective on all horses including broodmares, stallions and foals
• One syringe deworms horses up to 1,250 lbs (600 kg) body weight
• Proudly made in the USA

From the manufacturer: Horse Health™ (ivermectin paste) 1.87% is FDA-Approved for equine use only, and only pursuant to, and in accordance with, its label. It is only effective for the approved indications on the label. This product has not been tested in humans and is not approved for use with humans. Any and all off-label use is unsafe, and is strictly prohibited.

Under "Tips",

Dewormer won’t work if it ends up on your shirt!

Effective deworming depends on the right amount of dewormer getting into your horse. Make sure you give your horse the right amount of paste for his size, and that he swallows all the paste you give him. Adjust the syringe to your horse’s weight by locking the ring at the correct weight marking on the plunger. Be sure to read the product information in its entirety before deworming your horse.

In effect, one should scale the dose to the horse's weight.

Why You Should Not Use Ivermectin to Treat or Prevent COVID-19 | FDA

 

[Swammerdami]

I'm afraid I must side with Trausti in this sub-debate.

While the right-wing and GOP maintain their undisputed title as The Party that Lies, I also see many examples of exaggerations and half-truths by the left when attacking the right.

"Not FDA-approved for this usage" is NOT synonymous with "Useless or dangerous for this usage," but you'd never know that when listening to some complaints. Medicines often attack specific growth or reproduction mechanisms present in bacteria, eukaryotes, and even viroplasm, so it isn't a big surprise that some anti-bacterials (and perhaps even "de-wormers") can fight virus infections.

As for Ivermectin not being appropriate for humans, Trausti links to an NPR article which makes that drug appear to be a very important treatment for a major African sickness.

I am not qualified to study cases for and against Ivermectrin; nor will I take the time to research contradictory rants on the 'Net. I personally will follow official guidelines. I agree that it is laughable that some Trumpists think vaccines are a Bill Gates plot and end up talking poisonous doses of Ivermectrin instead! On the other hand, Trausti links to claims, including some by Rachel Maddow, that appear to be exaggerations.

Please! To preserve a reputation as the Party that Prefers Truth, liberals should avoid half-truths and exaggerations.

 

[lpetrich]

What's what, with the help of Types of parasites and worms in horses

• Large strongyles - Strongylus spp. - Strongylidae - Rhabditida - Chromadorea - Nematoda
• Small strongyles - cyathostomes - Trichostrongylus spp. - Trichostrongylidae - Rhabditida
• Pinworms - Oxyuris equi - Oxyuridae - Rhabditida
• Ascarids - Ascarididae - Ascaridida - Chromadorea
• Hairworms - Nematomorpha (?)
• Large-mouth stomach worms - Habronema muscae - Habronematidae - Rhabditida
• Bots - Gastrophilus botfly larvae - Oestridae - Diptera - Hexapoda - Arthropoda
• Lungworms - Dictyocaulus arnfieldi - Dictyocaulidae - Rhabditida
• Intestinal threadworms - Strongyloides spp.. - Strongylidae - Rhabditida
• Summer sores - Habronema and Draschia spp. (Draschia ~ Habronema) nematodes

Ivermectin Sheep Drench - Durvet

Ivermectin Sheep Drench is a ready-to-use, free-flowing solution of ivermectin. Ivermectin Sheep Drench provides treatment and control of adult and fourth-stage larvae of the following parasites: Gastrointestinal Roundworms – Haemonchus contortus, Ostertagia circumcincta, Trichostrongylus axei, T. colubriformis, Cooperia curticei, Nematodirus spathiger, N. battus, and Oesophagostomum columbianum; Lungworms – Dictyocaulus filaria; and all the larval stages of Nasal Bot – Oestrus ovis. It also provides treatment and control of adult forms only of the following Gastrointestinal Roundworms – Haemonchus placei, Cooperia oncophora, Strongyloides papillosus, Oesophagostomum venulosum, Trichuris ovis, and Chabertia ovina.

WARNING! NOT SAFE OR APPROVED FOR HUMAN USE, WHICH COULD CAUSE SEVERE PERSONAL INJURY OR DEATH.

• Haemonchus spp. - Trichostrongylidae
• Ostertagia (Teladorsagia) circumcincta - Trichostrongylidae
• Cooperia spp. - Cooperiidae - Rhabditida
• Nematodirus spp. - Trichostrongyloidea - Strongylida - Rhabditida
• Oesophagostomum spp. - Strongylidae
• Oestrus ovis (sheep botfly) - Oestridae
• Trichuris ovis - Trichuridae - Trichocephalida - Enoplea - Nematoda
• Chabertia ovina - Strongylida

Looking at horses and sheep, ivermectin is recommended for attacking nematodes (lots of species) and arthropods (botfly grubs). These are cellular organisms, not viruses.

 

[lpetrich]

For viruses, there are three main hypotheses of their origin, and they are not mutually exclusive: viruses may have originated many times by any combination of these mechanisms.

• Primordial organism
• Reduction of a cellular organism
• Escape of a transposable element in a genome

But they are a sort of emanation of cellular organisms, and cellular organisms' family tree is reasonably well-understood, at least in outline. Its deepest branching was discovered in the 1970's, the two branches of prokaryotes, and that's as far as we have been able to go with the organisms that we have worked with.

So a virus is VERY different from a nematode or a botfly larva.