Covid-19 miscellany

[jab]

So long, suckah!

In rock 'n' roll Hell they got a heck of a band.

 

[jab]

Yes, please. Let's focus on your petty complaint about names instead of focusing on a disease that's killing thousands of people a day. Need to focus on the important stuff, right?

The dehumanising of people is a precursor to persecuting them. But, even if it were not, why the dehumanisation?

slippery slope fallacy

 

[jab]

I oppose a specific mandate--of the government forcing medical procedures on unconsenting adults.

Do you think vaccinating children before they are adults is wrong?

What about parents (adults) refusing vaccinations for their children? what about parents (adults) refusing medical care for their ill children?

 

[jab]

First off, it's a BS article based on wishful thinking.

People didn't take steps to slow the spread. This is what we got for ignoring the experts.

It's over.

Edit: Typo

Trump's wishful thinking, Pt. 1: There was no way he could lose the 2020 election.
He was wrong.
Trump's wishful thinking, P:t. 2> He won the 2020 election.
He was wrong.
Biden's wishful thinking, early 2021: Enough Americans would get vaccinated with against Covid-19 that the pandemic would be over soon.
He was wrong.
Biden's wishful thinking, mid 2021: Thanks to the effiacy of the vaccines, vaccinated people wouldn't be at risk for infection, and it was almost over.
He was wrong.
TSwizzle, January 2022: It's over.
I hope the pandemic is finally winding down for good, but people who don't believe in Gods should be aware that one's hopes and wishes (and prayers) are not synonymous with reality.

 

[jab]

I love comparing immunity thru vaccine to immunity thru infection.
Immunity is stipulated to be desirable in both cases.
The reason immunity is desired is to prevent fucking infection.
I mean, seriously, it's like debating if you're better protected by oven mitts or by developing scar tissue from the burning....


With apologies to xkcd.

and of course, previous infection is more likely to leave you with long haul than va

Sarah Palin has COVID,... for the second time! (first time was last spring) Another victory for Natural Immunity^tm!!

Sarah Palin Has Covid Again And It's Messing With Her NYT Lawsuit

Palin's lawsuit against the New York Times is delayed because she's tested positive for Covid for the second time.

crooksandliars.com

One might say that AOC had covid: another victory for vaccines!

The point is that one should look at the evidence from many cases when available (and some is available, in the form of studies) to see whether vaccine-induced immunity or infection-induced immunity is stronger. Single cases provide only very weak evidence. repoman provided some actual evidence: according to those studies, it looks like vaccine-induced immunity was stronger pre-Delta, whereas infection-induced immunity was stronger against Delta. But that doesn't tell us the whole story, as we didn't know which variant they'd been infected with. I haven't seen numbers for Omicron yet, but it's difficult to tell which immunity is stronger; at any rate, single cases like that won't help much.

And she tested positive the day after breaking NYC's vaccine requirement for eating indoors at a restaurant while unvaccinated.

But that is not evidence that being unvaccinated but having had a previous infection provides generally less protection against Omicron than being vaccinated, let alone that it provides no protection.

You miss the point. It's evidence that she is a fucktard.

I find the concept of a fucktard difficult to grok so I can't be sure, but her behavior seems also compatible with being intelligent and politically motivated.

I love comparing immunity thru vaccine to immunity thru infection.
Immunity is stipulated to be desirable in both cases.
The reason immunity is desired is to prevent fucking infection.
I mean, seriously, it's like debating if you're better protected by oven mitts or by developing scar tissue from the burning....


With apologies to xkcd.

First, I compared them because the evidence presented against natural immunity was equally applicable to vaccines - it doesn't work in either case -, because it's been compared in the thread before and clearly there is disagreement, and because there are studies comparing them as well

Second, when it comes to assessing whether vaccines passports, mandates, etc., and restrictions on the unvaccinated are justified, the comparison is relevant to the extent that no exceptions are made for the previously infected.

Third, the reason immunity is desirable...desirable by whom? Well, in the moral debates surrounding the matter, it seems the issue is not that immunity is important to prevent the immunized person's infection, but to prevent that the person in question infect others. If you take a look at the usual accusations against unvaccinated people, it is generally not because of a risk to themselves, but rather, about the risk to others, which in theory the vaccinated would not pose. So, in this context, the comparison does matter.

to prevent those persons with no immunity from clogging up hospitals if and when they get really ill, and thus making access to medical care harder to attain for others, and thus place more strain on the people who work in health care, and (this is more personal--but still--) prevent grief and stress falling on those people who love them or even like them.

 

[jab]

We are told there is no dehumanizing of the unvaxed, and that comparing them to vermin is not dehumanizing them.

If there is no dehumanization going on, then we wouldn't see cheering among the Branch Covidians every time one person or another who isn't vaxed dies with Covid.

And yes, I used the word "with".

Well, yeah, militant, proselytizing anti-vaxxers who get really sick and broach death are a salutary lesson in consequences--meanwhile you are welcome to join in hopes and prayers "with" their loved ones and supporters.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

to prevent those persons with no immunity from clogging up hospitals if and when they get really ill, and thus making access to medical care harder to attain for others, and thus place more strain on the people who work in health care, and (this is more personal--but still--) prevent grief and stress falling on those people who love them or even like them.

The first one is true - I actually mentioned it in a previous post, forgot to add it in the latest, my bad.
But in the context of my reply to Keith&Co, that actually adds a further reason for comparing the effectiveness of infection-induced immunity vs vaccine-induced immunity.

The second one I do not recall seeing in the moral debates so far, but yes, that is a valid point to raise, if it's a moral debate about whether someone ought to get vaccinated. But it does not make the discussions comparing the two sources of immunity any less sensible.

 

[Elixir]

Rand Paul concocts a new FDA plot to 'punish' conservatives

As Rand Paul sees it, federal officials are deliberately limiting access to Covid treatments as part of a scheme to "punish" conservatives. That's insane.

www.msnbc.com

More stuff that he wants to do, described in advance. When they get back in power, GQP will require that anyone wanting a vaccine fill out a four page questionnaire, submit three negative Covid tests (we can't be paying for vaccines if someone already has immunity!) and sign a half dozen liability waivers. Pandemic management won't be a thing. Leveraging access to stuff that people badly need for political and financial gain - that's the GQP thing. It's what they see as government's function.

 

[blastula]

Tell that to the 3k+ Americans who died yesterday.

My glib response to that is I think it's safe to assume these are all "unvaccinated Trump supporting plague rats" so don't pretend like you care about them.

Not all of them, there are actual humans in those numbers, and among the plague rats' loved ones .

But in reality, I am very skeptical of the death statistics.

Yes, you don't have to tell us, you believe what you wish to be true.

 

[Swammerdami]

Let's go Brandon!

But in reality, I am very skeptical of the death statistics.

Sure, when Trump was Prez, George Soros was paying people to die of Covid to make the freedom-lovers and Patriotic Americans look bad. But Brandon is President sitting in the Oval Ofiice now. Who's fudging the stats now and why?

 

[TSwizzle]

Truckers in Canada protest against vaccine mandates. Authoritarian Trudeau is losing his shit.

Truck drivers in Canada are protesting vaccine mandates on their industry with a massive convoy that may break a world records. "It’s 70 km long," Benjamin Dichter, spokesman for the Freedom Convoy 2022, told the Toronto Sun. "I have seen footage from an airplane. It’s impressive." The Freedom Convoy left from Vancouver for Ottawa on Sunday to protest the federal government’s vaccine mandates for cross-border truckers, which took effect on Jan. 15. The Canadian Trucking Alliance estimates that roughly 15% of truckers in the country are not fully vaccinated, or about 16,000 truck drivers.

Fox

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

People have a right to not be vaccinated but they do not have a right to wander about outside of their personal property endangering the lives of others, including those who cannot be vaccinated or for whom vaccination might not be sufficient protection, such as transplant patients.

I am not going through this again. You are not going to convince me that forcing medical procedures on unconsenting adults is a good and proper thing. It is not. It is evil.

Allowing plague rats to walk around killing people is evil, no matter how much you think we should tolerate it.

Are you under the impression that Covid is in the same league with Bubonic Plague? Typhus? Polio? Small Pox? Spanish Flu?

A different league because it is much more infectious than most, probably all, of those. You don't have to get bit by a flea to get Covid.

How about in a different league because of how dangerous it is if you catch it? Maybe, possibly, we should also consider that?

In risk management, there are two factors: likelihood and severity. Some things are neither likely nor severe, so you don't even bother mitigating. Some things are likely but not severe, so you take a few minor safeguards. Some things are very likely and very severe, and that is where you concentrate most of your resources. Then there are the unlikely but severe things, which are a pain to deal with effectively.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Disappointing news for the authoritarians;

Denmark will end virus restrictions next week and reclassify Covid-19 as a disease that no longer poses a threat to society, even as infections hit a record high. The Nordic country, one of the most vaccinated in the world, won’t extend the pandemic measures beyond Jan. 31, Prime Minister Mette Frederiksen said Wednesday. Denmark’s decision on reclassifying the virus dramatically pushes forward an idea that’s emerged recently in Europe -- that it’s time to start thinking about Covid as endemic rather than a pandemic. The easing of curbs also echoes recent moves elsewhere -- including Ireland and the U.K. -- to scale back restrictions amid signs that omicron is less dangerous than earlier variants of the virus. There’s also a sense that restrictions just aren’t able to stop the highly transmissible omicron strain.

Bloomberg

The pandemic is over folks.

And black is white.

 

[Angry Floof]

No, my observations directly of people who did exactly this sort of spreading of misinformation for the joys of watching people be touched and be harmed by the resulting chaos caused by this malignant imposed ignorance make that a reality.

You hang around some sick people.

I think that Jarhyn has a point, although I never thought if it quite that way. Example that leaps to mind: some prominent members of the GOP and some well known FoX commentators are vaccinated themselves and cheer on all of those who are refusing to be vaccinated. As far as I can see, for shits and giggles. Oh, and power and bucks.

That some such people may exist does not mean the unvaccinated ("plague rats", in your dehumanising language) want to inflict suffering on the world. In fact, you make it sound like the exact opposite - that the 'inflict suffering for shits and giggles' crowd is a subgroup of the vaccinated.

I assumed that everyone realized that they (the mostly vaccinated who encourage others to not be vaccinated) are hypocrites.

Sorry to have left that out if it caused any misunderstanding.

Many of those who are refusing to be vaccinated are deluded. It’s unfortunate that they have been so seriously misled by those who will not bear any ( or muc) risk of disease themselves. I truly feel very bad for them. I may have mentioned that people I know have died from COVID because they were misled and their deepest fears were played upon by those who knew better and chose to be vaccinated themselves.

That doesn’t mean that we need to allow them to prolong the pandemic because they are ignorant and afraid.

Also, right wing authoritarian followers have already dehumanized everyone outside of their ideological identity group. The us vs. them mentality comes from right wing/Christian ideology, which runs deep in the substrate of the West. The world outside of your in-group is lost/broken/evil/under the influence of satan/will lie to you/will harm you. We're soldiers, remember? And there's lots of concepts and practices that reinforce the idea the Christians are separate/different from everyone else. (A lot of right wingers are atheist or at least claim to be on this board, and speaking of no one in particular.)

There is nothing in right wing/Christian mentality that doesn't reinforce that us vs. them war mentality. Some say that John 3:16 shows a love of every human being, but it doesn't remotely show that. John 3:16 says "conform to this ideological group or burn for eternity." The "for God so loved the world" part is bullshit. Just putting the word love in there somewhere doesn't change the cruel and divisive nature of the passage. "Conform or die" is at the core of most Christian denominations and sects. Slapping words like "love" all over it doesn't change that.

Some of us grow up without religion influence in our lives, but none of us can move about society living our lives without moving through those right wing/Christian paradigms. Everyone in the West has been conditioned to some degree to not question authority, to excuse abusive fathers, to turn away from battered wives, to accept the pedestal that this backward, inhumane ideology sits on.

Some people will start to question at some point and others will defend the paradigm without actually looking at it, even if they drop the God part. We have several such atheist Christians here who apparently believe that Christianity = Good. And they will always view the world in opposing groups, us vs. them. Saved vs unsaved. Heaven vs. Hell. Unvax vs Vax. "The evil enemy group is trying to harm us and dehumanize us," because there is no other paradigm in their heads.

 

[Jarhyn]

No, my observations directly of people who did exactly this sort of spreading of misinformation for the joys of watching people be touched and be harmed by the resulting chaos caused by this malignant imposed ignorance make that a reality.

You hang around some sick people.

I think that Jarhyn has a point, although I never thought if it quite that way. Example that leaps to mind: some prominent members of the GOP and some well known FoX commentators are vaccinated themselves and cheer on all of those who are refusing to be vaccinated. As far as I can see, for shits and giggles. Oh, and power and bucks.

That some such people may exist does not mean the unvaccinated ("plague rats", in your dehumanising language) want to inflict suffering on the world. In fact, you make it sound like the exact opposite - that the 'inflict suffering for shits and giggles' crowd is a subgroup of the vaccinated.

I assumed that everyone realized that they (the mostly vaccinated who encourage others to not be vaccinated) are hypocrites.

Sorry to have left that out if it caused any misunderstanding.

Many of those who are refusing to be vaccinated are deluded. It’s unfortunate that they have been so seriously misled by those who will not bear any ( or muc) risk of disease themselves. I truly feel very bad for them. I may have mentioned that people I know have died from COVID because they were misled and their deepest fears were played upon by those who knew better and chose to be vaccinated themselves.

That doesn’t mean that we need to allow them to prolong the pandemic because they are ignorant and afraid.

Also, right wing authoritarian followers have already dehumanized everyone outside of their ideological identity group. The us vs. them mentality comes from right wing/Christian ideology, which runs deep in the substrate of the West. The world outside of your in-group is lost/broken/evil/under the influence of satan/will lie to you/will harm you. We're soldiers, remember? And there's lots of concepts and practices that reinforce the idea the Christians are separate/different from everyone else. (A lot of right wingers are atheist or at least claim to be on this board, and speaking of no one in particular.)

There is nothing in right wing/Christian mentality that doesn't reinforce that us vs. them war mentality. Some say that John 3:16 shows a love of every human being, but it doesn't remotely show that. John 3:16 says "conform to this ideological group or burn for eternity." The "for God so loved the world" part is bullshit. Just putting the word love in there somewhere doesn't change the cruel and divisive nature of the passage. "Conform or die" is at the core of most Christian denominations and sects. Slapping words like "love" all over it doesn't change that.

Some of us grow up without religion influence in our lives, but none of us can move about society living our lives without moving through those right wing/Christian paradigms. Everyone in the West has been conditioned to some degree to not question authority, to excuse abusive fathers, to turn away from battered wives, to accept the pedestal that this backward, inhumane ideology sits on.

Some people will start to question at some point and others will defend the paradigm without actually looking at it, even if they drop the God part. We have several such atheist Christians here who apparently believe that Christianity = Good. And they will always view the world in opposing groups, us vs. them. Saved vs unsaved. Heaven vs. Hell. Unvax vs Vax. "The evil enemy group is trying to harm us and dehumanize us," because there is no other paradigm in their heads.

Except this doesn't look at the reality: sometimes there are such people who are enemies of peace and love to the extent that they think their sick amusement is more important than being a strong community against the hostilities of our environment, particularly when the weather report is "viral outbreak".

Again, I speak from direct experience, not with respect to viruses, thankfully.

There are absolutely people I knew back then who would have been all over this for the opportunity to sew chaos.

 

[Angry Floof]

No, my observations directly of people who did exactly this sort of spreading of misinformation for the joys of watching people be touched and be harmed by the resulting chaos caused by this malignant imposed ignorance make that a reality.

You hang around some sick people.

I think that Jarhyn has a point, although I never thought if it quite that way. Example that leaps to mind: some prominent members of the GOP and some well known FoX commentators are vaccinated themselves and cheer on all of those who are refusing to be vaccinated. As far as I can see, for shits and giggles. Oh, and power and bucks.

That some such people may exist does not mean the unvaccinated ("plague rats", in your dehumanising language) want to inflict suffering on the world. In fact, you make it sound like the exact opposite - that the 'inflict suffering for shits and giggles' crowd is a subgroup of the vaccinated.

I assumed that everyone realized that they (the mostly vaccinated who encourage others to not be vaccinated) are hypocrites.

Sorry to have left that out if it caused any misunderstanding.

Many of those who are refusing to be vaccinated are deluded. It’s unfortunate that they have been so seriously misled by those who will not bear any ( or muc) risk of disease themselves. I truly feel very bad for them. I may have mentioned that people I know have died from COVID because they were misled and their deepest fears were played upon by those who knew better and chose to be vaccinated themselves.

That doesn’t mean that we need to allow them to prolong the pandemic because they are ignorant and afraid.

Also, right wing authoritarian followers have already dehumanized everyone outside of their ideological identity group. The us vs. them mentality comes from right wing/Christian ideology, which runs deep in the substrate of the West. The world outside of your in-group is lost/broken/evil/under the influence of satan/will lie to you/will harm you. We're soldiers, remember? And there's lots of concepts and practices that reinforce the idea the Christians are separate/different from everyone else. (A lot of right wingers are atheist or at least claim to be on this board, and speaking of no one in particular.)

There is nothing in right wing/Christian mentality that doesn't reinforce that us vs. them war mentality. Some say that John 3:16 shows a love of every human being, but it doesn't remotely show that. John 3:16 says "conform to this ideological group or burn for eternity." The "for God so loved the world" part is bullshit. Just putting the word love in there somewhere doesn't change the cruel and divisive nature of the passage. "Conform or die" is at the core of most Christian denominations and sects. Slapping words like "love" all over it doesn't change that.

Some of us grow up without religion influence in our lives, but none of us can move about society living our lives without moving through those right wing/Christian paradigms. Everyone in the West has been conditioned to some degree to not question authority, to excuse abusive fathers, to turn away from battered wives, to accept the pedestal that this backward, inhumane ideology sits on.

Some people will start to question at some point and others will defend the paradigm without actually looking at it, even if they drop the God part. We have several such atheist Christians here who apparently believe that Christianity = Good. And they will always view the world in opposing groups, us vs. them. Saved vs unsaved. Heaven vs. Hell. Unvax vs Vax. "The evil enemy group is trying to harm us and dehumanize us," because there is no other paradigm in their heads.

Except this doesn't look at the reality: sometimes there are such people who are enemies of peace and love to the extent that they think their sick amusement is more important than being a strong community against the hostilities of our environment, particularly when the weather report is "viral outbreak".

Again, I speak from direct experience, not with respect to viruses, thankfully.

There are absolutely people I knew back then who would have been all over this for the opportunity to sew chaos.

Some people can't seem to shed that us vs. them mentality and recognize that all of humanity is their tribe regardless of what people believe or whether you like them or whatever. It runs deep. And I understand your comment about being hostile and sick amusement. They are the Nazis, without any semblance of principles or values other than own teh libs. The Lord of the Flies guys among us, the little boys who grew up bonding through cruelty to others, mainly girls and women, but really anyone not bigger than them or intimidating to them. Much of what they grew up doing and thinking was forbidden or frowned upon, and they had to conform to some degree like the incels and gamers who hack people's computers and harass/abuse/stalk people from behind the scenes, anonymous, the dark web - in the light of day, they can't be themselves. Until Trump came along.

We know them well.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Tell that to the 3k+ Americans who died yesterday.

My glib response to that is I think it's safe to assume these are all "unvaccinated Trump supporting plague rats" so don't pretend like you care about them.


But in reality, I am very skeptical of the death statistics.

If we are going glib, and we don't care about them, how about our wallet (also known as a right-winger's heart)? The anti-vax'er tax has cost me thousands of dollars (home upkeep stuff). The cost of construction has gone up a bit... and the only people gaining from it are the anti-vax'ers who get to be smug while helping sustain (causing) the supply chain shortfall. Lowered access to consumer goods like food is also another thing that the anti-vax'ers are sustaining.

So if nothing else, and we are the cold hearted bastards that you want to claim us to be, the anti-vaxxers are costing us all money. Some much more than others, like self health insured companies that are paying out millions in preventable extra health care costs.

 

[marc]

World o Meters has not put the US over 900,000 deaths. Way to go! We should hit a million by summer depending on how fast Omicron declines. The sources used by news outlets will probably hit the 900k mark in a couple weeks.

 

[TSwizzle]

If we are going glib, and we don't care about them, how about our wallet (also known as a right-winger's heart)? The anti-vax'er tax has cost me thousands of dollars (home upkeep stuff). The cost of construction has gone up a bit... and the only people gaining from it are the anti-vax'ers who get to be smug while helping sustain (causing) the supply chain shortfall. Lowered access to consumer goods like food is also another thing that the anti-vax'ers are sustaining.

Nonsense. The lockdown authoritarians are the ones causing havoc. Forcing people out of jobs etc.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If we are going glib, and we don't care about them, how about our wallet (also known as a right-winger's heart)? The anti-vax'er tax has cost me thousands of dollars (home upkeep stuff). The cost of construction has gone up a bit... and the only people gaining from it are the anti-vax'ers who get to be smug while helping sustain (causing) the supply chain shortfall. Lowered access to consumer goods like food is also another thing that the anti-vax'ers are sustaining.

Nonsense. The lockdown authoritarians are the ones causing havoc. Forcing people out of jobs etc.

Lacks in supply of timber and raw goods isn't being caused by the "lockdown" (which closed hospitality and stores) that ended 18 months ago.