Covid-19 miscellany

[bleubird]

Got my first shot today.Was well run and organized.And,there was a string quartet next to the check-out room.

 

[ZiprHead]

I had to go to the grocery today. Our pharmacy is inside and had to get meds.

Usually people are following the rules but today I saw an employee wearing a mask with a vent. I complained to the manager. Way back I had complained to the same manager when an employee was using a vent mask and explained that vent masks are not safe. At the time Massachusetts government had not yet gotten the message that vent masks are not safe.

Since then Massachusetts has banned vent masks. I told the manager that. I didn't stick around to see what happened as I don't like to stay in stores any longer than necessary.

I have a vent mask. It's been a while since I've worn it because I prefer my Tommy Copper masks. But the KN95 filters for the vent mask cover the vent too.

 

[Ruth Harris]

Got my first shot today.Was well run and organized.And,there was a string quartet next to the check-out room.

Really? A string quartet, honest to God? Boy, I wish our vaccination clinics were as well thought out as this. That would be extremely cool. Ours more resembled an episode of St. Elsewhere on a bad day...

Ruth

 

[bleubird]

Got my first shot today.Was well run and organized.And,there was a string quartet next to the check-out room.

Really? A string quartet, honest to God? Boy, I wish our vaccination clinics were as well thought out as this. That would be extremely cool. Ours more resembled an episode of St. Elsewhere on a bad day...

Ruth

That's my home town for you. We are small but have a lot of class.

 

[lpetrich]

In 2018, Diplomats Warned of Risky Coronavirus Experiments in a Wuhan Lab. No One Listened. - POLITICO - "After seeing a risky lab, they wrote a cable warning to Washington. But it was ignored."

On January 15, in its last days, President Donald Trump’s State Department put out a statement with serious claims about the origins of the Covid-19 pandemic. The statement said the U.S. intelligence community had evidence that several researchers at the Wuhan Institute of Virology laboratory were sick with Covid-like symptoms in autumn 2019—implying the Chinese government had hidden crucial information about the outbreak for months—and that the WIV lab, despite “presenting itself as a civilian institution,” was conducting secret research projects with the Chinese military. The State Department alleged a Chinese government cover-up and asserted that “Beijing continues today to withhold vital information that scientists need to protect the world from this deadly virus, and the next one.”

The first official account of the origin of COVID-19 was that it was in some seafood market in Wuhan. However, "The first known case of Covid-19 in Wuhan, it was revealed in February, had no connection to the market." But by then, that origin theory became the best-known story.

In the spring of 2020, inside the U.S. government, some officials began to see and collect evidence of a different, perhaps more troubling theory—that the outbreak had a connection to one of the laboratories in Wuhan, among them the WIV, a world leading center of research on bat coronaviruses.

To some inside the government, the name of the laboratory was familiar. Its research on bat viruses had already drawn the attention of U.S. diplomats and officials at the Beijing Embassy in late 2017, prompting them to alert Washington that the lab’s own scientists had reported “a serious shortage of appropriately trained technicians and investigators needed to safely operate this high-containment laboratory.”

But their cables to Washington were ignored.

 

[lpetrich]

The article has more details.

Since the 2002 outbreak of SARS—the deadly disease caused by a coronavirus transmitted by bats in China—scientists around the world had been looking for ways to predict and limit future outbreaks of similar diseases. To aid the effort, the NIH had funded a number of projects that involved the WIV scientists, including much of the Wuhan lab’s work with bat coronaviruses. The new study was entitled “Discovery of a Rich Gene Pool of Bat SARS-Related Coronaviruses Provides New Insights into the Origin of SARS Coronavirus.”

These researchers, the American officials learned, had found a population of bats from caves in Yunnan province that gave them insight into how SARS coronaviruses originated and spread. The researchers boasted that they may have found the cave where the original SARS coronavirus originated. But all the U.S. diplomats cared about was that these scientists had discovered three new viruses that had a unique characteristic: they contained a "spike protein” that was particularly good at grabbing on to a specific receptor in human lung cells known as an ACE2 receptor. That means the viruses were potentially very dangerous for humans—and that these viruses were now in a lab with which they, the U.S. diplomats, were largely unfamiliar.

...
Any theory of the pandemic’s origins had to account for the fact that the outbreak of the novel coronavirus—or, by its official name, SARS-CoV-2—first appeared in Wuhan, on the doorstep of the lab that possessed one of the world’s largest collections of bat coronaviruses and that possessed the closest known relative of SARS-CoV-2, a virus known as RaTG13 that Shi identified in her lab.

Seems like its escape was a lab accident.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I had to go to the grocery today. Our pharmacy is inside and had to get meds.

Usually people are following the rules but today I saw an employee wearing a mask with a vent. I complained to the manager. Way back I had complained to the same manager when an employee was using a vent mask and explained that vent masks are not safe. At the time Massachusetts government had not yet gotten the message that vent masks are not safe.

Since then Massachusetts has banned vent masks. I told the manager that. I didn't stick around to see what happened as I don't like to stay in stores any longer than necessary.

AFIAK we still haven't banned vent masks here.

And you should have complained to corporate.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Just back from the supermarket. One young girl was getting served at the deli counter and wasn’t wearing a mask. Nobody said anything and she paid for her purchase and left without incident. We are getting back to normal. Also two AMC movie theaters are opening up in LA county and as of Monday indoor dining will be allowed at 25% capacity.

Getting back to normal--killing as many people as possible.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In 2018, Diplomats Warned of Risky Coronavirus Experiments in a Wuhan Lab. No One Listened. - POLITICO - "After seeing a risky lab, they wrote a cable warning to Washington. But it was ignored."

You realize that came from source controlled by His Flatulence?

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Let me try again: these people engage in a behavior that very probably will cause serious harm and death to third parties in an indiscriminate manner (i.e., not that they target serial killers or something). They do so even though refraining from engaging in such behavior for a few months (until there is herd immunity in the US) would have an extremely low cost. Even with masks, they shouldn't do that, with no social distancing and all of that. The lack of masks makes it more unethical, though.

Maybe, possibly, perhaps, could etc. There is a risk, it’s a very small risk. It’s up to them, don’t you worry about it. Stop with the finger wagging, scolding and shaming.

No, the risk is not small. Lack of distancing and of masks does result in more illnesses and deaths, and by large numbers. Why do you think so many countries have their hospital systems collapse or nearly so? Others control it pretty well, though. The finger wagging and shaming is justified on this one. And no, it's not up to them: they are engaging in an activity that will certainly hurt significantly and very probably kill non-involved third parties, even though they could refrain from doing so at a very low cost. They deserve to be told that (though I'm not telling them, as they are not here, and telling them on the street would risk that some of the people behaving unethically who fail to realize that they are behaving unethically react violently, which makes things worse (even from the perspective of passing on the virus)).

Just back from the supermarket. One young girl was getting served at the deli counter and wasn’t wearing a mask. Nobody said anything and she paid for her purchase and left without incident. We are getting back to normal. Also two AMC movie theaters are opening up in LA county and as of Monday indoor dining will be allowed at 25% capacity.

Unfortunately, it's like that over here too. While nearly all people at supermarkets still wear masks, I've seen many who wear them poorly with no consequences, and others just speak loudly all the time at close proximity of anyone who isn't on guard to avoid them. On the streets, the number of maskless people (apart from those who live on the streets or in slums) is growing, even though it's a felony to be without a mask outside your home, except for drinking or eating. But enforcement was only half-good in the first months of the pandemic. Then it fell gradually and now it's a joke. To make it worse, the government made unnecessary exceptions to the rules, and on top of that, they repeatedly blundered in the vaccination campaign.

 

[TSwizzle]

No, the risk is not small.

You are wrong on that. The vast, VAST majority of people who contract this virus survive unscathed. You’re talking about a virus so lethal you need a test to detect if you have it.

Lack of distancing and of masks does result in more illnesses and deaths, and by large numbers.

Stay home, run away or whatever it takes.

Why do you think so many countries have their hospital systems collapse or nearly so?

I know exactly why. The fuckers (in California anyway) put infected patients in nursing homes. Almost 50% of deaths occurred in long term care facilities. A fucking scandal that gets ignored by the finger waggers who prefer hectoring people out on a walk.

The finger wagging and shaming is justified on this one.

Nonsense. Wag you finger all you want, these people don’t give a shit. They are in control and that’s what upsets the control freaks.

And no, it's not up to them: they are engaging in an activity that will certainly hurt significantly and very probably kill non-involved third parties, even though they could refrain from doing so at a very low cost.

Why don’t you take your concerns up with the health authorities that murdered hundreds of thousands of elderly and infirm people in the nursing homes ? Nah, because you’d rather bitch about some random person you know nothing about.

Unfortunately, it's like that over here too. While nearly all people at supermarkets still wear masks, I've seen many who wear them poorly with no consequences, and others just speak loudly all the time at close proximity of anyone who isn't on guard to avoid them. On the streets, the number of maskless people (apart from those who live on the streets or in slums) is growing, even though it's a felony to be without a mask outside your home, except for drinking or eating. But enforcement was only half-good in the first months of the pandemic. Then it fell gradually and now it's a joke. To make it worse, the government made unnecessary exceptions to the rules, and on top of that, they repeatedly blundered in the vaccination campaign.

It must make you weep. Stay home.

 

[Ruth Harris]

You’re talking about a virus so lethal you need a test to detect if you have it.

You know, this little quip of yours is getting really old.

ANY virus, lethal or not, requires a test for diagnosis. As does anything else that can be a cause of death or morbidity.

Ruth

 

[TSwizzle]

You’re talking about a virus so lethal you need a test to detect if you have it.

You know, this little quip of yours is getting really old.

ANY virus, lethal or not, requires a test for diagnosis. As does anything else that can be a cause of death or morbidity.

But the test and cases is what drives the illogical dumb rules. Not the fact that 50% of deaths occurred in nursing facilities.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

That must be the fattest one I’ve ever seen!

 

[ZiprHead]

You are wrong on that. The vast, VAST majority of people who contract this virus survive unscathed. You’re talking about a virus so lethal you need a test to detect if you have it.

A right-wing meme. You're so unoriginal.

I know exactly why. The fuckers (in California anyway) put infected patients in nursing homes. Almost 50% of deaths occurred in long term care facilities. A fucking scandal that gets ignored by the finger waggers who prefer hectoring people out on a walk.

What do you suggest should have been done with those people? The hospitals needed the beds for far sicker patients. What would your alternative have been?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Hey, anyone know how many STDs there are that you have to get tested to see if you have them? At least, until you get to the "turns black and falls off" stage so popular in Navy hygiene films...

But it's still not a good plan to fuck around as if you'll never get them. People could get hurt.

 

[Rhea]

But the test and cases is what drives the illogical dumb rules. Not the fact that 50% of deaths occurred in nursing facilities.

I’ve seen people argue this line of thought before and it seems to ignore the reality that those cases get into nursing homes somehow.... typically through asymptomatic people walking around thinking, “this is not a big deal,” and then they cary it into a nursing home and cause multiple deaths.

Nursing homes do not create diseases. They certainly do all create a coronavirus simultaneously. Every death in a nursing home is a case of transmission from somewhere else.

And so yes, all that testing and cases drive the quite logical rules that try to limit spread. TO vulnerable populations, whereever they might be, even those concentrated in nursing homes.


But there’s another, even more dangerous problem with people thinking “there’s no death, there’s no problem.”

They are forgetting that every time this virus has a chance to replicate, every asymptomatic perrson who harbors it and passes it on, is providing many multiple opportunities for mutation. Mutations like the one that produced this breed of coronavirus. which can happen to be more lethal, or more debilitating, or more contagious, or all three.

It is foolish of us to think, “hey just let it multipy! It’s not so harmful! Thousands of generations - what could possibly go wrong?” When we know that a mutation is what caused this variation, this “COVID-19” to occur in the first place. It’s obvious that we are best served by limiting the number of replications so that we can limit the number of mutations.

A lot of folks seem to not realize how viruses - and their mutations - work. Which is kind of tragic because of the death that their ignorance accepts.

 

[Patooka]

You are wrong on that. The vast, VAST majority of people who contract this virus survive unscathed. You’re talking about a virus so lethal you need a test to detect if you have it.

I didn't realise you were such an expert of the long term respiratory effects of being exposed to a virus that has existed for less than 24 months. You do realise with your superior knowledge the WHO would pay any price to have your expertise on their books, right?

 

[Ruth Harris]

You’re talking about a virus so lethal you need a test to detect if you have it.

You know, this little quip of yours is getting really old.

ANY virus, lethal or not, requires a test for diagnosis. As does anything else that can be a cause of death or morbidity.

But the test and cases is what drives the illogical dumb rules. Not the fact that 50% of deaths occurred in nursing facilities.

And just what precisely do you think should be used to create "rules"? Where the deaths occur is of little consequence; the exposure of vulnerable people to viral carriers is where the actual problem lies. You can't isolate just nursing home residents as they are dependent on outside personnel to care for them and bring necessary supplies.

Ruth

 

[Angra Mainyu]

You are wrong on that. The vast, VAST majority of people who contract this virus survive unscathed. You’re talking about a virus so lethal you need a test to detect if you have it.

You're jumping to conclusions there. The majority (but not the vast majority) probably doesn't notice. A significant portion, however, gets very severe consequences, and it's very lethal. But I was talking about the consequences for others (and sometimes for themselves, but only to the extent that that impacts others unjustly).

Stay home, run away or whatever it takes.

Whatever it takes to stop the people who engage in reckless behavior from seriously hurting and even killing others, while they could avoid those outcomes at a very low cost?
Unfortunately, I do not have the capability to do that. Again, I'm talking about the risk to others.

I know exactly why. The fuckers (in California anyway) put infected patients in nursing homes. Almost 50% of deaths occurred in long term care facilities. A fucking scandal that gets ignored by the finger waggers who prefer hectoring people out on a walk.

No, you do not know exactly why. The health care system is collapsing (or did collapse) in much of Brazil, Peru, Ecuador, and even in Chile and Italy it's under enormous pressure in significant portions of the country, and that's even despite the fact that Chile is vaccinating people very fast. It's like that in much of the world. This sort of thing does not happen with the other respiratory illnesss like the flu (even in bad flu seasons). The point is that this virus is very lethal and also has serious long-term effects for a signficant portion of survivors.

While I'm not familiar with what happened in California, I do know cases in which negligence by the government made it worse and got more people killed. But the virus is well capable of making health care systems collapse, even when those systems would do just fine against the regular illnesses we get. This is a nasty bug.

Nonsense. Wag you finger all you want, these people don’t give a shit. They are in control and that’s what upsets the control freaks.

I do not wag my finger at them, as I explained, since the bikers are not in the forum (and I don't wag my finger at anyone, since that would be dangerous).

But my point is that they deserve it, not that I'll do it. And they deserve it because they're behaving unethically. How? By participating in a gathering that will very probably kill third parties and certainly cause serious illness to other third parties, while they could refrain from doing so at an extremely low cost.

And no, it's not up to them: they are engaging in an activity that will certainly hurt significantly and very probably kill non-involved third parties, even though they could refrain from doing so at a very low cost.

Why don’t you take your concerns up with the health authorities that murdered hundreds of thousands of elderly and infirm people in the nursing homes ? Nah, because you’d rather bitch about some random person you know nothing about.

What random person I know nothing about? I do know something about the bikers, because you provided information about their behavior. But in any case, no, it's not because of that that I do not take my concerns up with the health authorities that murdered hundreds of thousands of elderly and infirm people in the nursing homes. It's because I do not know they did that, and if I did, there is nothing I could do anyway.

That aside, I'm replying because you brought up the gathering of motorcyclists , and actually considered it a positive thing, and I just happened to be reading when you did that, so I thought I'd try to see if I could persuade you to change your mind (now I'm just debating). In other words, I was responding to your post in a forum - which is one of the things forums are for. I'm talking about these bikers because you brought up the issue and I found it interesting enough to respond. If you did not intend to discuss the matter, why did you bring it up without clarifying that you did not want to discuss it? I'm not a mind reader, and this is a discussion/debate forum.

By the way, I did not see anyone providing evidence that health authorities murdered hundreds of thousands of elderly and infirm people in the nursing homes, let alone praising said authorities for a behavior that predictably would result in that. But if I had read a post saying something like that, I might have replied, depending on my expectations about potential replies, time that would take me to talk to them, and so on.

It must make you weep. Stay home.

I do stay home or take precautions (social distancing + mask + shield), but that's not going to change the fact that many people are behaving in a way that endangers others significantly, and the result is plenty of suffering and death, while the cost of reducing those risks and deaths significantly is very low.

I never weep though.