Covid-19 miscellany

[Loren Pechtel]

Stores ask that if you've not been vaccinated to wear a mask. People under 12 have not. That includes my daughter. Gonna make my daughter wear one, but not me? Of course, I don't see stores booting unmasked children out.

This could have been simple.

Masks should remain until the rates are far lower. They simply aren't a big deal except for those with certain medical issues.

 

[bilby]

It's interesting to see how rapidly attitudes change to consider whatever is happening to be normal and acceptable.

Back in early 2020, the vast majority of people were saying "If this is killing people, we need to shut everything down to protect lives". That's where we still are here in Australia, and Melbourne is currently locked down because they have ~60 active cases, with half a dozen new cases being diagnosed today. Two patients are in hospital. Nobody has died (yet) in the latest outbreak.

But people in Europe and the US quickly moved on to "If this is only killing a few people, we need to open things up so everyone can get back to work"; then "If this is only killing a few dozen people..."; "...a few hundred people..."; "...a few thousand people...".

Particularly it's noticeable that whenever fatality rates fall, people immediately start clamouring for the steps that caused the fall to be discontinued. Despite the new, lower, rates being numbers that would have been horrifying to contemplate in January 2020.

People are far too adaptable.

 

[Jokodo]

It's interesting to see how rapidly attitudes change to consider whatever is happening to be normal and acceptable.

Back in early 2020, the vast majority of people were saying "If this is killing people, we need to shut everything down to protect lives". That's where we still are here in Australia, and Melbourne is currently locked down because they have ~60 active cases, with half a dozen new cases being diagnosed today. Two patients are in hospital. Nobody has died (yet) in the latest outbreak.

But people in Europe and the US quickly moved on to "If this is only killing a few people, we need to open things up so everyone can get back to work"; then "If this is only killing a few dozen people..."; "...a few hundred people..."; "...a few thousand people...".

Particularly it's noticeable that whenever fatality rates fall, people immediately start clamouring for the steps that caused the fall to be discontinued. Despite the new, lower, rates being numbers that would have been horrifying to contemplate in January 2020.

People are far too adaptable.

When you say half a dozen, which dozen are you using?

Austria opened up restaurants, gyms etc. 2 weeks ago, after over half a year of closure (with capacity limits, ie 4/10 adults maximum (indoor/outdoor) and 2 metres between tables, masks when not seated, and requiring a negative test no older than 24-72 hours depending on type if test). We have around 500 diagnosed cases and half a dozen deaths a day to a population of 9 millions, less than twice Melbourne's as I understand. The figure was closer to 800 cases/a dozen deaths a couple weeks ago.

 

[bilby]

It's interesting to see how rapidly attitudes change to consider whatever is happening to be normal and acceptable.

Back in early 2020, the vast majority of people were saying "If this is killing people, we need to shut everything down to protect lives". That's where we still are here in Australia, and Melbourne is currently locked down because they have ~60 active cases, with half a dozen new cases being diagnosed today. Two patients are in hospital. Nobody has died (yet) in the latest outbreak.

But people in Europe and the US quickly moved on to "If this is only killing a few people, we need to open things up so everyone can get back to work"; then "If this is only killing a few dozen people..."; "...a few hundred people..."; "...a few thousand people...".

Particularly it's noticeable that whenever fatality rates fall, people immediately start clamouring for the steps that caused the fall to be discontinued. Despite the new, lower, rates being numbers that would have been horrifying to contemplate in January 2020.

People are far too adaptable.

When you say half a dozen, which dozen are you using?

Half a dozen is six.

Austria opened up restaurants, gyms etc. 2 weeks ago, after over half a year of closure (with capacity limits, ie 4/10 adults maximum (indoor/outdoor) and 2 metres between tables, masks when not seated, and requiring a negative test no older than 24-72 hours depending on type if test). We have around 500 diagnosed cases and half a dozen deaths a day to a population of 9 millions, less than twice Melbourne's as I understand. The figure was closer to 800 cases/a dozen deaths a couple weeks ago.

Melbourne has half a dozen new diagnoses a day. There hasn't been a Covid death in Australia since April 13th; That's the only death this year, with the previous fatality on December 28th 2020.

 

[Jokodo]

Half a dozen is six.

Austria opened up restaurants, gyms etc. 2 weeks ago, after over half a year of closure (with capacity limits, ie 4/10 adults maximum (indoor/outdoor) and 2 metres between tables, masks when not seated, and requiring a negative test no older than 24-72 hours depending on type if test). We have around 500 diagnosed cases and half a dozen deaths a day to a population of 9 millions, less than twice Melbourne's as I understand. The figure was closer to 800 cases/a dozen deaths a couple weeks ago.

Melbourne has half a dozen new diagnoses a day. There hasn't been a Covid death in Australia since April 13th; That's the only death this year, with the previous fatality on December 28th 2020.

I understand, it just seems like different world. Half a dozen cases a day and Melbourne goes into lockdown, half a thousand here and our politicians want us to believe that it's Covid19 0:1 Austria

 

[Bomb#20]

Gain of function is remotely possible

Something other than gain of function is remotely possible. Something other than gain of function involves a lot of improbable coincidences. Gain of function explains pretty much everything without relying on improbable coincidences.

There's a disturbing article on the lines of circumstantial evidence that point back to the Wuhan lab here:

https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/

but I think Beijing would have reacted faster if it was--somebody would have realized what was going on and said something. When your run-of-the-mill doctor says SARS is back it looks like somebody being stupid. When a top virologist (Wuhan is a level 4 lab--their top people will be there) says "watch out!" it's quite another matter.

"Wuhan is a level 4 lab" is a misleading way to put it. Wuhan has a level 4 lab. The Wuhan Institute of Virology has a lot of labs. Research on SARS was conducted in level 3 labs. Research on relatives of SARS was conducted in level 2 labs.

"The real problem, however, was not the unsafe state of the Wuhan BSL4 lab but the fact that virologists worldwide don’t like working in BSL4 conditions. You have to wear a space suit, do operations in closed cabinets, and accept that everything will take twice as long. So the rules assigning each kind of virus to a given safety level were laxer than some might think was prudent.

Before 2020, the rules followed by virologists in China and elsewhere required that experiments with the SARS1 and MERS viruses be conducted in BSL3 conditions. But all other bat coronaviruses could be studied in BSL2, the next level down. BSL2 requires taking fairly minimal safety precautions, such as wearing lab coats and gloves, not sucking up liquids in a pipette, and putting up biohazard warning signs. Yet a gain-of-function experiment conducted in BSL2 might produce an agent more infectious than either SARS1 or MERS. And if it did, then lab workers would stand a high chance of infection, especially if unvaccinated.

Much of Shi’s work on gain-of-function in coronaviruses was performed at the BSL2 safety level, as is stated in her publications and other documents. She has said in an interview with Science magazine that “[t]he coronavirus research in our laboratory is conducted in BSL-2 or BSL-3 laboratories.”

“It is clear that some or all of this work was being performed using a biosafety standard — biosafety level 2, the biosafety level of a standard US dentist’s office — that would pose an unacceptably high risk of infection of laboratory staff upon contact with a virus having the transmission properties of SARS-CoV-2,” Ebright says."​

 

[DrZoidberg]

Man, you are so comfortable speaking for everyone else.

Ok, I should have added "in my opinion and in addition to also being sensible thing to do.. masking is... "

Better?

Sweden never had masking rules. Instead the government recommended using masks. But they never forced anybody to use them. Only the middle-class ever adopted using them. When visiting Sweden last year it was striking how in some areas of Stockholm masks were common and in others nowhere to be seen.

And it didn't work out too well.

I don't understand your point? My point is that masking has primarily become a way to show what tribe you belong to rather than being about limiting the spread of disease. Which Sweden's awful track record can be used as evidence to support my statement.

I think the masks are here to stay, way beyond Covid going away. They're more than just Covid prevention now. It's war.

Not really. That'd be the partisan bullshit right-wingers have been selling for almost a year now. America is so close to being done with Covid-19 (for a while), but there are a bunch of people that refuse to get immunized. We could have reached herd immunity by July! Then the masks are off and we are cautious, but able to do stuff. But no. So we go into summer needlessly less prepared than we should be. It utterly pathetic.

I don't think you are correct. The right-wingers have been talking about masking rules. I'm not talking about rules. I'm talking about the cultural artifact. I think we will from now on to the end of time see certain groups of people keep using masks in the west. After SARS in Japan and Korea anybody with a cold started wearing masks. And that never went away. I'd say it's a pretty low odds bet to think that it'll be the same in the west.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Masking has become a cultural artifact. Among the middle class wearing a mask is virtue signaling. It's a cheap way to show that you care. Among the working class wearing a mask signals that you are sheeple.

It's not clear what the obsession with the mask is but it's obviously not about "the science and data". Well, here in California at least.

I agree. We quickly moved beyond science and data. Now I think it primarily has to do with tribal identity and virtue signaling. That's true for both sides BTW. But I do see those refusing to wear masks much less sensible than those who wear them obsessively.

The moment the mask became a political statement it became silly very fast. On both sides.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Gain of function is remotely possible

Something other than gain of function is remotely possible. Something other than gain of function involves a lot of improbable coincidences. Gain of function explains pretty much everything without relying on improbable coincidences.

There's a disturbing article on the lines of circumstantial evidence that point back to the Wuhan lab here:

https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/

but I think Beijing would have reacted faster if it was--somebody would have realized what was going on and said something. When your run-of-the-mill doctor says SARS is back it looks like somebody being stupid. When a top virologist (Wuhan is a level 4 lab--their top people will be there) says "watch out!" it's quite another matter.

"Wuhan is a level 4 lab" is a misleading way to put it. Wuhan has a level 4 lab. The Wuhan Institute of Virology has a lot of labs. Research on SARS was conducted in level 3 labs. Research on relatives of SARS was conducted in level 2 labs.

"The real problem, however, was not the unsafe state of the Wuhan BSL4 lab but the fact that virologists worldwide don’t like working in BSL4 conditions. You have to wear a space suit, do operations in closed cabinets, and accept that everything will take twice as long. So the rules assigning each kind of virus to a given safety level were laxer than some might think was prudent.

Before 2020, the rules followed by virologists in China and elsewhere required that experiments with the SARS1 and MERS viruses be conducted in BSL3 conditions. But all other bat coronaviruses could be studied in BSL2, the next level down. BSL2 requires taking fairly minimal safety precautions, such as wearing lab coats and gloves, not sucking up liquids in a pipette, and putting up biohazard warning signs. Yet a gain-of-function experiment conducted in BSL2 might produce an agent more infectious than either SARS1 or MERS. And if it did, then lab workers would stand a high chance of infection, especially if unvaccinated.

Much of Shi’s work on gain-of-function in coronaviruses was performed at the BSL2 safety level, as is stated in her publications and other documents. She has said in an interview with Science magazine that “[t]he coronavirus research in our laboratory is conducted in BSL-2 or BSL-3 laboratories.”

“It is clear that some or all of this work was being performed using a biosafety standard — biosafety level 2, the biosafety level of a standard US dentist’s office — that would pose an unacceptably high risk of infection of laboratory staff upon contact with a virus having the transmission properties of SARS-CoV-2,” Ebright says."​

So traceability from the lab is much more explainable than the market. The Chinese have the needed information locked up to save face. And the new to me info: the US funded this research. And our own dear Anthony Fauci may have played a role in all this. Oh dear.
Will we get anything conclusive at the end of Biden’s 90 day investigation?

Good readable article for the unwashed masses.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Masking has become a cultural artifact. Among the middle class wearing a mask is virtue signaling. It's a cheap way to show that you care. Among the working class wearing a mask signals that you are sheeple.

It's not clear what the obsession with the mask is but it's obviously not about "the science and data". Well, here in California at least.

I agree. We quickly moved beyond science and data. Now I think it primarily has to do with tribal identity and virtue signaling.

Yeah, you say things like that all the time, but can't actually demonstrate it. Employees at stores / places with large groups are wearing masks, hospital workers are wearing masks, That isn't virtue signaling, what an ignorant thing to even say. Our under 12s aren't immunized at all.

The masks weren't ready to go. You end precautionary mitigation after the threat is minimized. If we reached herd immunity in the US, the masks could come off. We could have come close to that by July. But because a bunch of assholes and idiots aren't getting immunized (states in the south as low as under 1 in 3 vaccinated (18+)), more caution is required.

That's true for both sides BTW. But I do see those refusing to wear masks much less sensible than those who wear them obsessively.

The moment the mask became a political statement it became silly very fast. On both sides.

Moore-Coulter, though it could be argued the left-wing never politicized this at all and treated it like an actual medical emergency of the likes that shut down NYC.

 

[ZiprHead]

So traceability from the lab is much more explainable than the market. The Chinese have the needed information locked up to save face. And the new to me info: the US funded this research. And our own dear Anthony Fauci may have played a role in all this. Oh dear.
Will we get anything conclusive at the end of Biden’s 90 day investigation?

Good readable article for the unwashed masses.

Fauci testified before congress and in no uncertain terms that the US did not send funding to that lab.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

"The real problem, however, was not the unsafe state of the Wuhan BSL4 lab but the fact that virologists worldwide don’t like working in BSL4 conditions. You have to wear a space suit, do operations in closed cabinets, and accept that everything will take twice as long. So the rules assigning each kind of virus to a given safety level were laxer than some might think was prudent.

Before 2020, the rules followed by virologists in China and elsewhere required that experiments with the SARS1 and MERS viruses be conducted in BSL3 conditions. But all other bat coronaviruses could be studied in BSL2, the next level down. BSL2 requires taking fairly minimal safety precautions, such as wearing lab coats and gloves, not sucking up liquids in a pipette, and putting up biohazard warning signs. Yet a gain-of-function experiment conducted in BSL2 might produce an agent more infectious than either SARS1 or MERS. And if it did, then lab workers would stand a high chance of infection, especially if unvaccinated.

Much of Shi’s work on gain-of-function in coronaviruses was performed at the BSL2 safety level, as is stated in her publications and other documents. She has said in an interview with Science magazine that “[t]he coronavirus research in our laboratory is conducted in BSL-2 or BSL-3 laboratories.”

“It is clear that some or all of this work was being performed using a biosafety standard — biosafety level 2, the biosafety level of a standard US dentist’s office — that would pose an unacceptably high risk of infection of laboratory staff upon contact with a virus having the transmission properties of SARS-CoV-2,” Ebright says."​

I find irony, and I'm not placing this on Bomb#20 but others, that some want to blame China for this getting out. How dare they?! They let it out of a lab! They weren't safe enough!

The same people that likely were protesting mask wearing and closures. Had this gotten out of a lab, it was likely accidental, where as in America, virus spread was flat out apathetic intentional negligence.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

The same people that likely were protesting mask wearing and closures.

...and safety regulations in industries.

 

[TSwizzle]

I find irony, and I'm not placing this on Bomb#20 but others, that some want to blame China for this getting out. How dare they?! They let it out of a lab! They weren't safe enough!

The same people that likely were protesting mask wearing and closures. Had this gotten out of a lab, it was likely accidental, where as in America, virus spread was flat out apathetic intentional negligence.

Indeed but I never see you or any of the "wear a fucking mask" fascists gripe about the devastation caused in long care facilities by the ignorant, incompetent and heartless buffoons who allowed infected patients to be discharged into these places. Something like 40% of covid deaths occurred in long care facilities but all you hear about on here is the "karens" or "rat lickers".

 

[DrZoidberg]

I agree. We quickly moved beyond science and data. Now I think it primarily has to do with tribal identity and virtue signaling.

Yeah, you say things like that all the time, but can't actually demonstrate it. Employees at stores / places with large groups are wearing masks, hospital workers are wearing masks, That isn't virtue signaling, what an ignorant thing to even say. Our under 12s aren't immunized at all.

I don't think you're hearing what I'm saying. Not at all. Why would I have a problem with mask wearing of any of the above?

That's true for both sides BTW. But I do see those refusing to wear masks much less sensible than those who wear them obsessively.

The moment the mask became a political statement it became silly very fast. On both sides.

Moore-Coulter, though it could be argued the left-wing never politicized this at all and treated it like an actual medical emergency of the likes that shut down NYC.

I don't agree at all. I think the left went way overboard. In general. Or to quote a Swedish middle aged male doctor on TV. "We're demanding to shut down society to save the lives of people like me. How's that progressive?"

I don't think the Covid policies of any country has been evidence based. It's all politics. All over the map.

Excess death numbers matter. Shutting down gyms for a year have massive long term health impacts. We don't know the impacts of screwing up schooling for kids for a year. If kids growing up in a home with an alcoholic father leads to violence and sexual abuse a regular year, I'm pretty sure it sucks more a year they're locked up in a small apartment together. Not to mention trashing large parts of the economy, which will suck balls for poor people once Covid is over... long term.

There's been zero debate on the left regarding what Covid precautions have been necessary. It's just been all in. Anybody who expresses the very reasonable opinion, that some death is acceptable, has been seen as a monster.

The debate, on both sides, has been simplistic to an idiotic degree IMHO.

What every countries politicians should have done is give the keys to epidemiologists, done what they were told, and otherwise stay the fuck away from voicing opinions on the matter. If your problem is scientific, let the scientists handle it.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I don't think you're hearing what I'm saying. Not at all. Why would I have a problem with mask wearing of any of the above?

Yes, I am. You are equating wearing masks as some sort of political statement, when in fact, it is a response to a medical emergency.

That's true for both sides BTW. But I do see those refusing to wear masks much less sensible than those who wear them obsessively.

The moment the mask became a political statement it became silly very fast. On both sides.

Moore-Coulter, though it could be argued the left-wing never politicized this at all and treated it like an actual medical emergency of the likes that shut down NYC.

I don't agree at all. I think the left went way overboard. In general.

By doing what exactly...?

I don't think the Covid policies of any country has been evidence based. It's all politics. All over the map.

They've been based on trying to deal with an emerging medical emergency. The absolute safest thing to do would have been to lock everyone indoors for two months. That, however, wasn't feasible, so the question became how do you allow the necessities of life to continue to move forward, ie shipping of food, energy, operation of hospitals and other legit necessity industries while trying to limit the spread of an unknown disease. That takes time and is a bumpy road.

Excess death numbers matter. Shutting down gyms for a year have massive long term health impacts. We don't know the impacts of screwing up schooling for kids for a year. If kids growing up in a home with an alcoholic father leads to violence and sexual abuse a regular year, I'm pretty sure it sucks more a year they're locked up in a small apartment together. Not to mention trashing large parts of the economy, which will suck balls for poor people once Covid is over... long term.

There's been zero debate on the left regarding what Covid precautions have been necessary. It's just been all in.

That is just wrong. "All-in" would have been a true lockdown.

Anybody who expresses the very reasonable opinion, that some death is acceptable, has been seen as a monster.

Yeah, strawman arguments seem to be your strength. The trouble with this disease, for the trillionth time wasn't the deaths, it was the hospitalizations, with roughly 3% of people getting the disease needing it. With a disease that spreads so easily, that meant areas getting hospitals that required extraordinary efforts to house everyone. Even in the US, we saw hospitals well over normal capacity in several cities. Hospitals getting overwhelmed and collapsing is bad for everyone, especially those that need them for non-Covid-19 issues.

 

[TomC]

"The real problem, however, was not the unsafe state of the Wuhan BSL4 lab but the fact that virologists worldwide don’t like working in BSL4 conditions. You have to wear a space suit, do operations in closed cabinets, and accept that everything will take twice as long. So the rules assigning each kind of virus to a given safety level were laxer than some might think was prudent.

Before 2020, the rules followed by virologists in China and elsewhere required that experiments with the SARS1 and MERS viruses be conducted in BSL3 conditions. But all other bat coronaviruses could be studied in BSL2, the next level down. BSL2 requires taking fairly minimal safety precautions, such as wearing lab coats and gloves, not sucking up liquids in a pipette, and putting up biohazard warning signs. Yet a gain-of-function experiment conducted in BSL2 might produce an agent more infectious than either SARS1 or MERS. And if it did, then lab workers would stand a high chance of infection, especially if unvaccinated.

Much of Shi’s work on gain-of-function in coronaviruses was performed at the BSL2 safety level, as is stated in her publications and other documents. She has said in an interview with Science magazine that “[t]he coronavirus research in our laboratory is conducted in BSL-2 or BSL-3 laboratories.”

“It is clear that some or all of this work was being performed using a biosafety standard — biosafety level 2, the biosafety level of a standard US dentist’s office — that would pose an unacceptably high risk of infection of laboratory staff upon contact with a virus having the transmission properties of SARS-CoV-2,” Ebright says."​

I find irony, and I'm not placing this on Bomb#20 but others, that some want to blame China for this getting out. How dare they?! They let it out of a lab! They weren't safe enough!

The same people that likely were protesting mask wearing and closures. Had this gotten out of a lab, it was likely accidental, where as in America, virus spread was flat out apathetic intentional negligence.

THIS^^^^

How the virus got introduced to the human population isn't very important at all. What really matters hugely is how leaders and peoples responded to the threat. The Chinese leadership stomped hard on the virus, with mass quarantining and such. The Chinese people cooperated.

The U.S. leadership responded with denial and fake news and finger pointing and ridiculous predictions. The Trump administration convinced tens of millions that C19 was no big deal and masking doesn't help. That C19 is a hoax by his political rivals. The country will be open by Easter. The list of b.s. from USA leadership is endless. And the people often didn't cooperate with the small inconvenience of low tech methods like masking.

As a result, despite being the epicenter of the pandemic and a poor country littered with huge dense cities, China is coming out in rather better condition than the USA. I don't trust all the numbers from either government, but the big picture is clear.

The reason this matters is because the threat remains. The next potential pandemic could be brewing almost anywhere. In a world of rapidly growing population and huge volumes of fast transportation, the threat isn't going away even after C19 is brought under control. Where it comes from matters far less than how it's responded to.
Tom

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

...
https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/

....

... But all other bat coronaviruses could be studied in BSL2, the next level down. BSL2 requires taking fairly minimal safety precautions, such as wearing lab coats and gloves, not sucking up liquids in a pipette, and putting up biohazard warning signs. ...​

That is misleading because those are 3 requirements for BSL1 and even BSL1 has more requirements than that. BSL2 has even more requirements than the requirements of BSL1 that are not fleshed out in the above.

Here is a link to more information.

A BSL-1 lab, which is not required to be isolated from surrounding facilities, houses activities that require only standard microbial practices, such as:

• Mechanical pipetting only (no mouth pipetting allowed)
• Safe sharps handling
• Avoidance of splashes or aerosols
• Daily decontamination of all work surfaces when work is complete
• Hand washing
• Prohibition of food, drink and smoking materials in lab setting
• Personal protective equipment, such as; eye protection, gloves and a lab coat or gown
• Biohazard signs

BSL-1 labs also requires immediate decontamination after spills. Infection materials are also decontaminated prior to disposal, generally through the use of an autoclave.

...

In addition to BSL 1 expectation, the following practices are required in a BSL 2 lab setting:

• Appropriate personal protective equipment (PPE) must be worn, including lab coats and gloves. Eye protection and face shields can also be worn, as needed.
• All procedures that can cause infection from aerosols or splashes are performed within a biological safety cabinet (BSC).
• An autoclave or an alternative method of decontamination is available for proper disposals.
• The laboratory has self-closing, lockable doors.
• A sink and eyewash station should be readily available.
• Biohazard warning signs

A biosafety cabinet has safety features and really shouldn't be swept under the rug.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Yes, I am. You are equating wearing masks as some sort of political statement, when in fact, it is a response to a medical emergency.
.

No, I'm not.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yes, I am. You are equating wearing masks as some sort of political statement, when in fact, it is a response to a medical emergency.
.

No, I'm not.

Yes, you did, repeatedly.

Among the middle class wearing a mask is virtue signaling. It's a cheap way to show that you care.