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Covid-19 miscellany

Can somebody please explain how the UK can have a vaccination rate pushing 70% while also having an exponentially increasing spread of Covid-19? Isn't the vaccine working?
Because the UK opened up too early? Vaccine protections after just the first dose of the mRNAs is only around 33%. The second dose pops it to what is estimated as around 80%.
 
Can somebody please explain how the UK can have a vaccination rate pushing 70% while also having an exponentially increasing spread of Covid-19? Isn't the vaccine working?
Because the UK opened up too early? Vaccine protections after just the first dose of the mRNAs is only around 33%. The second dose pops it to what is estimated as around 80%.

Aha. That makes sense. Thanks. Good answer.
 
I got my delayed first dose of a vaccine yesterday; they gave me AZ.

A few hours later, I had 39.4 C and a massive headache. I managed to bring it down to 38 and a moderate headache with paracetamol. I'm already scared of the second dose. :eek:
 
Sinovac/Sinopharm I understand are pretty primitive - just chopped up viruses. Results are not great.
All normal (Moderna/Pfizer/AZ/Sputhik) vaccines target specific parts of the virus which are considered stable and don't mutate. They are much more effective.
AZ does cause some reaction and death in some people. The rest does not seem to have data which suggest severe reaction/death.

I'm not sure how AZ does that. They have a viral vector with the SARS2 spike protein, right? But how do you prevent your immune system from targeting the viral vector? And one could say the same could happen with Sputnik, though mitigated by the use of two viral vectors.
You can't prevent that. AZ use monkey virus which is not known to infect people naturally. Sputnik use human viruses which are just rare I understand. They are vague about whether or not adenovirus-based vaccines can be used more than once. I suspect it is much less effective second time if at all. I hope Sputnik provides couple of years of decent immunity against C19.
 
No, that's not correct. As far as I can tell, and counting only the ones you listed, it's:


1. Pfizer or Moderna.

It's hard to tell; Pfizer was a bit better but within the margin of error; then Moderna was modified I think to deal with Beta, and I have no idea whether a combination of the two Moderna variants is better. But in any case, they better than any other.

They're within the margin of error of each other but Pfizer seems to have less severe side effects.

4. Sinovac. This one is pretty bad.

Yup. It's simply a killed-virus vaccine. There's a reason we haven't had vaccines for coronaviruses before--the killed-virus approach fares pretty badly against the inevitable variants. It seems to work against the "base" strain (which appears not to be the original) but not very well against the variants.

There's also the Sputnik which seems to have quality control problems. And there's the CureVac that bombed in testing (protection worse than Sinovac--looks like the immune system destroys it before it does it's job) and is out of the running.
 
Sinovac/Sinopharm I understand are pretty primitive - just chopped up viruses. Results are not great.
All normal (Moderna/Pfizer/AZ/Sputhik) vaccines target specific parts of the virus which are considered stable and don't mutate. They are much more effective.
AZ does cause some reaction and death in some people. The rest does not seem to have data which suggest severe reaction/death.

I'm not sure how AZ does that. They have a viral vector with the SARS2 spike protein, right? But how do you prevent your immune system from targeting the viral vector? And one could say the same could happen with Sputnik, though mitigated by the use of two viral vectors.

Your immune system will engage the vector but it takes time for an organized response. You end up resistant to the vector and thus any other vaccine based on the same vector will be promptly engaged by the immune system and fail to take. (Which means a two-dose vector vaccine uses two different vectors for the two shots.)
 
Can somebody please explain how the UK can have a vaccination rate pushing 70% while also having an exponentially increasing spread of Covid-19? Isn't the vaccine working?

https://ourworldindata.org/explorer...NK~SWE~IDN&Metric=People+vaccinated+(by+dose)

https://ourworldindata.org/explorer...aks=false&country=USA~GBR~DEU~ITA~IND~DNK~SWE

No, the Delta variant isn't an answer. The vaccine should protect against it. As well as having a prior infection. If a smaller and smaller group of people are able to transmit a disease why does it keep increasing? Something doesn't add up.

Delta is a lot more transmissible. It's hitting the unvaccinated population a lot harder and there are also some breakthrough cases although they're mostly mild. Note, also, that the vaccinated rate is only looking at the number who got their shots, not looking at whether the vaccine took. If your immune system is weak enough vaccines don't do much.
 
No, that's not correct. As far as I can tell, and counting only the ones you listed, it's:


1. Pfizer or Moderna.

It's hard to tell; Pfizer was a bit better but within the margin of error; then Moderna was modified I think to deal with Beta, and I have no idea whether a combination of the two Moderna variants is better. But in any case, they better than any other.

They're within the margin of error of each other but Pfizer seems to have less severe side effects.

4. Sinovac. This one is pretty bad.

Yup. It's simply a killed-virus vaccine. There's a reason we haven't had vaccines for coronaviruses before--the killed-virus approach fares pretty badly against the inevitable variants. It seems to work against the "base" strain (which appears not to be the original) but not very well against the variants.

There's also the Sputnik which seems to have quality control problems. And there's the CureVac that bombed in testing (protection worse than Sinovac--looks like the immune system destroys it before it does it's job) and is out of the running.

I was going with the ones Swammerdami mentioned. If we count others, we need to add Sinopharm to the bad ones. That said, I'm not sure why the viral vector vaccine would work better against the inevitable variants; by what you said, in the killed-virus vaccine, the immune system might target the spike protein or something else, which then changes, right? But then, in the viral vector vaccine, the immune system might target the spike protein or something else, and the something else is useless against the real virus.
 
Sinovac/Sinopharm I understand are pretty primitive - just chopped up viruses. Results are not great.
All normal (Moderna/Pfizer/AZ/Sputhik) vaccines target specific parts of the virus which are considered stable and don't mutate. They are much more effective.
AZ does cause some reaction and death in some people. The rest does not seem to have data which suggest severe reaction/death.

I'm not sure how AZ does that. They have a viral vector with the SARS2 spike protein, right? But how do you prevent your immune system from targeting the viral vector? And one could say the same could happen with Sputnik, though mitigated by the use of two viral vectors.

Your immune system will engage the vector but it takes time for an organized response. You end up resistant to the vector and thus any other vaccine based on the same vector will be promptly engaged by the immune system and fail to take. (Which means a two-dose vector vaccine uses two different vectors for the two shots.)
AZ uses the same, though.
 
There's also the Sputnik which seems to have quality control problems.
I heard these unsubstantiated claims when substantiated claims of quality control problems of AZ surfaced.
Apparently thrombosis due to AZ was associated with insufficient cleaning from by-products.
Since I got my dose of Sputnik they added another one, EpiVacCorona I think. It has had some criticism.
 
AZ uses the same, though.
Yes. And I got impression that adeno-viruses develop life-long immunity. So I suspect that they would have to use another delivery system next time.

BTW, how are you feeling now? I understand headache could be result of something going on with thrombosis. High temperature is fine.
 
AZ uses the same, though.
Yes. And I got impression that adeno-viruses develop life-long immunity. So I suspect that they would have to use another delivery system next time.

BTW, how are you feeling now? I understand headache could be result of something going on with thrombosis. High temperature is fine.

I'm still out; the fever is lower and the headaches less intense, but I'm mostly in bed and can't do almost anything. :( (but thanks for asking :) ).

While a headache could be the result of thrombosis, it takes a bit longer for the AZ to cause it, as I understand it (my temperature began to climb just 2-3 hours after inoculation, and the headache only began when I got to 39, a few hours later):

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...tting/covid-19-vaccination-and-blood-clotting

At any rate, the medical attention I have access to probably cannot deal with blood clotting of this sort (or maybe any sort), so if I do get it I'm likely to die or whatever the thrombosis does to me without treatment. But it's 1 in 100000, so it's very improbable.

On the other hand, the high temperature I got seems much higher than usual side-effects, at least from what I read, so I guess there is a bit of a chance that I got covid and the effects were just manifested after vaccination for some reason. However, the big coincidence luckily makes it improbable. The doctor told me they have to wait for 72 hours.

"Funny" thing, someone here tells me she called the emergency line over here and asked about a person who had symptoms after vaccination, and they reply they couldn't test them because one can get a positive due to the vaccine. Of course that is nonsense ( https://theconversation.com/will-th...ut-vaccines-and-covid-testing-answered-155958 ), but that was an official phone line. :rolleyes:
 
You're right, blood clots takes much longer to manifest after AZ.
In my case, as I reported earlier, it lasted just one night. I was worried it would get worse but in the morning I was mostly tired from not being able to sleep. Next night I slept like a baby and I was 100% after that. Second dose - some tiny headache.
 
You're right, blood clots takes much longer to manifest after AZ.
In my case, as I reported earlier, it lasted just one night. I was worried it would get worse but in the morning I was mostly tired from not being able to sleep. Next night I slept like a baby and I was 100% after that. Second dose - some tiny headache.

Thanks for the more detailed info, and good to know the first dose wasn't that bad (I think I'd missed your report on the first dose; I read the second one).

With Sputnik I guess there might be less of a connection between the reaction to the first and second doses, since they use different viral vectors, but I don't have much info on reports of comparison of side-effects between the two doses.

With AZ (and unlike Pfizer/Moderna), usually (but not usually enough :eek: ) the second one is milder, but after this one I can't help being scared :rolleyes: . Paracetamol helps, though.
 
My apologies in advance if this has already been addressed but, in looking at vaccination rates for various countries around the world, I noticed some huge surprises--the biggest one being the extremely low vaccination rate in Australia. Given the relative wealth, education level, etc. as well as close ties to Great Britain, I was astonished to see that Australia has only vaccinated 5.9% of its population! I was also shocked at the lower levels of vaccination in Canada, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, and France, among other countries but Australia really floored me.

Why are the levels of vaccination so low in these relatively wealthy countries, especially given the socialized medicine? Here in the US, we are able to be vaccinated free of charge and our rates are much higher than any of the countries I mentioned (and lower than some countries I would not have expected to have high rates).

Why?

Here in the US, it's mostly idiots who refuse to be vaccinated, along with some who simply cannot be vaccinated. I would not guess that the levels of idiocy are higher in Canada, Australia, or any of the other countries.
 
My apologies in advance if this has already been addressed but, in looking at vaccination rates for various countries around the world, I noticed some huge surprises--the biggest one being the extremely low vaccination rate in Australia. Given the relative wealth, education level, etc. as well as close ties to Great Britain, I was astonished to see that Australia has only vaccinated 5.9% of its population! I was also shocked at the lower levels of vaccination in Canada, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, and France, among other countries but Australia really floored me.

Why are the levels of vaccination so low in these relatively wealthy countries, especially given the socialized medicine? Here in the US, we are able to be vaccinated free of charge and our rates are much higher than any of the countries I mentioned (and lower than some countries I would not have expected to have high rates).

Why?

Here in the US, it's mostly idiots who refuse to be vaccinated, along with some who simply cannot be vaccinated. I would not guess that the levels of idiocy are higher in Canada, Australia, or any of the other countries.
One word, I believe, supply.
 
My apologies in advance if this has already been addressed but, in looking at vaccination rates for various countries around the world, I noticed some huge surprises--the biggest one being the extremely low vaccination rate in Australia. Given the relative wealth, education level, etc. as well as close ties to Great Britain, I was astonished to see that Australia has only vaccinated 5.9% of its population! I was also shocked at the lower levels of vaccination in Canada, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, and France, among other countries but Australia really floored me.

Why are the levels of vaccination so low in these relatively wealthy countries, especially given the socialized medicine? Here in the US, we are able to be vaccinated free of charge and our rates are much higher than any of the countries I mentioned (and lower than some countries I would not have expected to have high rates).

Why?

Here in the US, it's mostly idiots who refuse to be vaccinated, along with some who simply cannot be vaccinated. I would not guess that the levels of idiocy are higher in Canada, Australia, or any of the other countries.

The big problem in Australia is that, due to the very effective response by our (mostly Labor) state governments, we essentially don't have Covid here. It was something that happened in early 2020.

That's changed in the last week, unfortunately. But the fact remains that until now, the urgency from the public to get vaccinated was low.

Worse, the obtaining of vaccines is a federal responsibility, and our Liberal PM is neither personally inclined to give a shit, nor competent to be effective even if he did. Small amounts of the Pfizer were obtained, but have now been used up and further doses not ordered. That's partly because the PM got his, so fuck the people; But more because the strategy here was to make our own. To that end, the AstraZeneca was licenced to be made in Australia, and millions of doses are available, but the TGA reviewed the blood clotting issues and advised that it only be given to people over fifty. Then they reviewed it again, and raised that to sixty.

I got my first dose of AZ three days before the age limit increase would have rendered me ineligible; Those of us between 50 and 60 who got the first dose are currently permitted to get the second, but if you haven't yet had dose one and are under 60, Pfizer is the only approved vaccine, and it's in very short supply. The TGA are urgently reviewing the Moderna now, but it will take time to be approved, and likely more time again to get reasonable numbers of doses imported and distributed.

Meanwhile our international arrivals quarantine system has repeatedly failed, causing outbreaks that require strict lockdowns to contain in a population that's neither vaccinated, nor contains a population of recovered Covid patients who might have acquired immunity.

The federal government are responsible for only two aspects of our Covid response - Obtaining and distributing vaccines, and quarantining international arrivals. Only two aspects of our response have failed. Our smug, vacuous, fundamentalist christian Prime Minister was never one for taking responsibility; He sees his role as taking credit when things work out well, and blaming others when they don't.

His deputy, Nationals "leader" Barnaby Joyce, is beyond a joke, and there's insufficient room on the Internet to detail all of his failings, but to get an idea of how exemplary his behaviour is, he was fined $200 by NSW police a couple of days ago for failure to wear a mask in public. He wasn't making a statement or attempting to assert an objection, he just didn't think that the rules mattered to the oh-so-important Barnaby Joyce - an attitude that typifies every aspect of his ignoble career. Unfortunately for Australia, he represents a federal division that would elect a dead possum on the side of the highway if it was wearing a National Party rosette.

It's wearing thin. And hopefully the voters will remember at the next election. But until then, we're rooted.
 
My apologies in advance if this has already been addressed but, in looking at vaccination rates for various countries around the world, I noticed some huge surprises--the biggest one being the extremely low vaccination rate in Australia. Given the relative wealth, education level, etc. as well as close ties to Great Britain, I was astonished to see that Australia has only vaccinated 5.9% of its population! I was also shocked at the lower levels of vaccination in Canada, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, and France, among other countries but Australia really floored me.

Why are
the levels of vaccination so low in these relatively wealthy countries, especially given the socialized medicine? Here in the US, we are able to be vaccinated free of charge and our rates are much higher than any of the countries I mentioned (and lower than some countries I would not have expected to have high rates).

Why?

Here in the US, it's mostly idiots who refuse to be vaccinated, along with some who simply cannot be vaccinated. I would not guess that the levels of idiocy are higher in Canada, Australia, or any of the other countries.

The big problem in Australia is that, due to the very effective response by our (mostly Labor) state governments, we essentially don't have Covid here. It was something that happened in early 2020.

That's changed in the last week, unfortunately. But the fact remains that until now, the urgency from the public to get vaccinated was low.

Worse, the obtaining of vaccines is a federal responsibility, and our Liberal PM is neither personally inclined to give a shit, nor competent to be effective even if he did. Small amounts of the Pfizer were obtained, but have now been used up and further doses not ordered. That's partly because the PM got his, so fuck the people; But more because the strategy here was to make our own. To that end, the AstraZeneca was licenced to be made in Australia, and millions of doses are available, but the TGA reviewed the blood clotting issues and advised that it only be given to people over fifty. Then they reviewed it again, and raised that to sixty.

I got my first dose of AZ three days before the age limit increase would have rendered me ineligible; Those of us between 50 and 60 who got the first dose are currently permitted to get the second, but if you haven't yet had dose one and are under 60, Pfizer is the only approved vaccine, and it's in very short supply. The TGA are urgently reviewing the Moderna now, but it will take time to be approved, and likely more time again to get reasonable numbers of doses imported and distributed.

Meanwhile our international arrivals quarantine system has repeatedly failed, causing outbreaks that require strict lockdowns to contain in a population that's neither vaccinated, nor contains a population of recovered Covid patients who might have acquired immunity.

The federal government are responsible for only two aspects of our Covid response - Obtaining and distributing vaccines, and quarantining international arrivals. Only two aspects of our response have failed. Our smug, vacuous, fundamentalist christian Prime Minister was never one for taking responsibility; He sees his role as taking credit when things work out well, and blaming others when they don't.

His deputy, Nationals "leader" Barnaby Joyce, is beyond a joke, and there's insufficient room on the Internet to detail all of his failings, but to get an idea of how exemplary his behaviour is, he was fined $200 by NSW police a couple of days ago for failure to wear a mask in public. He wasn't making a statement or attempting to assert an objection, he just didn't think that the rules mattered to the oh-so-important Barnaby Joyce - an attitude that typifies every aspect of his ignoble career. Unfortunately for Australia, he represents a federal division that would elect a dead possum on the side of the highway if it was wearing a National Party rosette.

It's wearing thin. And hopefully the voters will remember at the next election. But until then, we're rooted.

Thank you for taking the time to explain what is happening in Australia. I knew that Australia was relatively COVID free but somehow hadn’t considered that as playing any role in reducing urgency in vaccination. It seemed unlikely that you’d have more anti-vaxxers there than we do here. I understand how badly government can muck up responses to emergencies. You may remember our former guy….
 
I was going with the ones Swammerdami mentioned. If we count others, we need to add Sinopharm to the bad ones. That said, I'm not sure why the viral vector vaccine would work better against the inevitable variants; by what you said, in the killed-virus vaccine, the immune system might target the spike protein or something else, which then changes, right? But then, in the viral vector vaccine, the immune system might target the spike protein or something else, and the something else is useless against the real virus.

The viral vector vaccines only carry the genes for the spike protein, not the whole Covid genome.
 
"Funny" thing, someone here tells me she called the emergency line over here and asked about a person who had symptoms after vaccination, and they reply they couldn't test them because one can get a positive due to the vaccine. Of course that is nonsense ( https://theconversation.com/will-th...ut-vaccines-and-covid-testing-answered-155958 ), but that was an official phone line. :rolleyes:

Depends on the test.

An antibody test can't tell the vaccine from the disease--as some people have very unpleasantly found out in Shanghai recently. (Old rules--test positive on arrival, get sent straight to the hospital. They were using antibody tests.)

PCR tests are much less prone to this problem and even if it happened it would soon fade as the immune system cleans up the battlefield.

Antibody tests are simpler.
 
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