Covid-19 miscellany

[Loren Pechtel]

Thank you for taking the time to explain what is happening in Australia. I knew that Australia was relatively COVID free but somehow hadn’t considered that as playing any role in reducing urgency in vaccination. It seemed unlikely that you’d have more anti-vaxxers there than we do here. I understand how badly government can muck up responses to emergencies. You may remember our former guy….

Taiwan got burned in a similar fashion--they were successfully keeping it out so there was no urgency about getting vaccinated, a lot of people were taking a wait-and-see approach.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

I was going with the ones Swammerdami mentioned. If we count others, we need to add Sinopharm to the bad ones. That said, I'm not sure why the viral vector vaccine would work better against the inevitable variants; by what you said, in the killed-virus vaccine, the immune system might target the spike protein or something else, which then changes, right? But then, in the viral vector vaccine, the immune system might target the spike protein or something else, and the something else is useless against the real virus.

The viral vector vaccines only carry the genes for the spike protein, not the whole Covid genome.

Sure, but it carries the genome of the viral vector. What guarantees that the spike protein is targeted, instead of just some part of the viral vector?

 

[Angra Mainyu]

"Funny" thing, someone here tells me she called the emergency line over here and asked about a person who had symptoms after vaccination, and they reply they couldn't test them because one can get a positive due to the vaccine. Of course that is nonsense ( https://theconversation.com/will-th...ut-vaccines-and-covid-testing-answered-155958 ), but that was an official phone line.

Depends on the test.

An antibody test can't tell the vaccine from the disease--as some people have very unpleasantly found out in Shanghai recently. (Old rules--test positive on arrival, get sent straight to the hospital. They were using antibody tests.)

PCR tests are much less prone to this problem and even if it happened it would soon fade as the immune system cleans up the battlefield.

Antibody tests are simpler.

But they were talking about PCR tests (antibody tests are not used for determining whether a person is infected; just antigen or PCR over here, but in case of symptoms, only PCR)

 

[barbos]

I was going with the ones Swammerdami mentioned. If we count others, we need to add Sinopharm to the bad ones. That said, I'm not sure why the viral vector vaccine would work better against the inevitable variants; by what you said, in the killed-virus vaccine, the immune system might target the spike protein or something else, which then changes, right? But then, in the viral vector vaccine, the immune system might target the spike protein or something else, and the something else is useless against the real virus.

The viral vector vaccines only carry the genes for the spike protein, not the whole Covid genome.

Sure, but it carries the genome of the viral vector. What guarantees that the spike protein is targeted, instead of just some part of the viral vector?

If it has a lot of spike then chances are good that immune system will target that.

 

[Toni]

"Funny" thing, someone here tells me she called the emergency line over here and asked about a person who had symptoms after vaccination, and they reply they couldn't test them because one can get a positive due to the vaccine. Of course that is nonsense ( https://theconversation.com/will-th...ut-vaccines-and-covid-testing-answered-155958 ), but that was an official phone line.

Depends on the test.

An antibody test can't tell the vaccine from the disease--as some people have very unpleasantly found out in Shanghai recently. (Old rules--test positive on arrival, get sent straight to the hospital. They were using antibody tests.)

PCR tests are much less prone to this problem and even if it happened it would soon fade as the immune system cleans up the battlefield.

Antibody tests are simpler.

With the various COVID-19 tests, antibody tests are not a good measure to determine if you are immune due to vaccination. The efficacy of antibody tests depends upon the type of vaccine received. Antibody test results cannot be used to determine if you are immune to COVID-19. Or should not be. https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices...t=Be aware that if you,not all antibody tests.

What you wrote broadly applies to most vaccines. For instance, if you have been vaccinated against HepB and you re given an antibody test, it will detect antibodies and not be able to determine of the antibodies are present due to vaccination or prior disease. Other, more specific tests looking for specific antibodies can provide this information. Broadly speaking, antigen tests detect active infections. Antibody tests detect antibodies which may be from disease or from vaccination, depending upon the virus and vaccine. The best way to determine if there is an active infection is by PCR, assuming that such a test exists for that virus.

Antibody tests ARE simpler than PCR tests but they don't provide the same information or information that is useful in determining if someone is infected or has been infected in the past (if there is a vaccine for the virus being evaluated).

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Sure, but it carries the genome of the viral vector. What guarantees that the spike protein is targeted, instead of just some part of the viral vector?

If it has a lot of spike then chances are good that immune system will target that.

Sounds good, but can they add it so that it has a lot of spike, like more than the sars-cov-2?

 

[barbos]

Sure, but it carries the genome of the viral vector. What guarantees that the spike protein is targeted, instead of just some part of the viral vector?

If it has a lot of spike then chances are good that immune system will target that.

Sounds good, but can they add it so that it has a lot of spike, like more than the sars-cov-2?

if you add a lot of copies of spike DNA into adenovirus DNA, it would produce more spike protein.
And adeno-virus particles are inactivated they don't reproduce. it could be it does not even produce any protein other than C19 spike. But I am not sure.
Speaking of which, since vector is not replicating it may not even develop strong immune reaction against it. So it may be possible to use the same vector second time.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Sounds good, but can they add it so that it has a lot of spike, like more than the sars-cov-2?

if you add a lot of copies of spike DNA into adenovirus DNA, it would produce more spike protein.
And adeno-virus particles are inactivated they don't reproduce. it could be it does not even produce any protein other than C19 spike. But I am not sure.

Hmm... if you add a lot of copies of spike DNA into adenovirus DNA, it won't produce more protein unless you infect some cells with the vector and it can reproduce. But these viral vectors are inactivated...now I'm reading that they replace some of the parts that work for reproduction by a gene that codes for the Spike protein, so I guess that's how it works, with more Spike protein than the sar-cov-2, as you say.

At any rate, the immune system has to target the spike protein somehow, because the vaccines do work, and the adenovirus has nothing of the sar-cov-2 virus except for the spike protein. Still, mRNA vaccine technology seems much better: no viral vector for the immune system to target, and they can be modified very quickly if they need to adapt it to a variant.

 

[barbos]

reproducing means making copies of itself. In our case, viral particle just gets into a cell, release DNA which then produce spike protein (and maybe something else too) but it can't assemble into a new viral particle. For manufacturing viral particles they use special cells in which this modified virus CAN reproduce.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Can somebody please explain how the UK can have a vaccination rate pushing 70% while also having an exponentially increasing spread of Covid-19? Isn't the vaccine working?

https://ourworldindata.org/explorer...NK~SWE~IDN&Metric=People+vaccinated+(by+dose)

https://ourworldindata.org/explorer...aks=false&country=USA~GBR~DEU~ITA~IND~DNK~SWE

No, the Delta variant isn't an answer. The vaccine should protect against it. As well as having a prior infection. If a smaller and smaller group of people are able to transmit a disease why does it keep increasing? Something doesn't add up.

Delta is a lot more transmissible. It's hitting the unvaccinated population a lot harder and there are also some breakthrough cases although they're mostly mild. Note, also, that the vaccinated rate is only looking at the number who got their shots, not looking at whether the vaccine took. If your immune system is weak enough vaccines don't do much.

On TWIV they said that Delta's quicker spread correlates to shift in policy and more risky human behaviour. They don't think there's data yet to support that it's really more transmissible.

The reason it's widely believed is because newspapers like running with scary stories

 

[barbos]

Can somebody please explain how the UK can have a vaccination rate pushing 70% while also having an exponentially increasing spread of Covid-19? Isn't the vaccine working?

https://ourworldindata.org/explorer...NK~SWE~IDN&Metric=People+vaccinated+(by+dose)

https://ourworldindata.org/explorer...aks=false&country=USA~GBR~DEU~ITA~IND~DNK~SWE

No, the Delta variant isn't an answer. The vaccine should protect against it. As well as having a prior infection. If a smaller and smaller group of people are able to transmit a disease why does it keep increasing? Something doesn't add up.

Delta is a lot more transmissible. It's hitting the unvaccinated population a lot harder and there are also some breakthrough cases although they're mostly mild. Note, also, that the vaccinated rate is only looking at the number who got their shots, not looking at whether the vaccine took. If your immune system is weak enough vaccines don't do much.

On TWIV they said that Delta's quicker spread correlates to shift in policy and more risky human behaviour. They don't think there's data yet to support that it's really more transmissible.

The reason it's widely believed is because newspapers like running with scary stories

No, they say Delta is more transmissible because it replaces other strains.

 

[bilby]

Can somebody please explain how the UK can have a vaccination rate pushing 70% while also having an exponentially increasing spread of Covid-19? Isn't the vaccine working?

https://ourworldindata.org/explorer...NK~SWE~IDN&Metric=People+vaccinated+(by+dose)

https://ourworldindata.org/explorer...aks=false&country=USA~GBR~DEU~ITA~IND~DNK~SWE

No, the Delta variant isn't an answer. The vaccine should protect against it. As well as having a prior infection. If a smaller and smaller group of people are able to transmit a disease why does it keep increasing? Something doesn't add up.

Delta is a lot more transmissible. It's hitting the unvaccinated population a lot harder and there are also some breakthrough cases although they're mostly mild. Note, also, that the vaccinated rate is only looking at the number who got their shots, not looking at whether the vaccine took. If your immune system is weak enough vaccines don't do much.

On TWIV they said that Delta's quicker spread correlates to shift in policy and more risky human behaviour. They don't think there's data yet to support that it's really more transmissible.

The reason it's widely believed is because newspapers like running with scary stories

The evidence from Australia, particularly Sydney, suggests that it really is more contagious. I'm hearing R₀ of ~5 for Delta, vs ~2-3 for previous strains.

Nothing in the Australian containment procedures has really changed, yet Delta has not just broken out (which has happened before), but broken out and stayed out despite those containment procedures.

Australia makes a good test environment, because Covid is so rare here, so we are able and willing to do full PCR and contact tracing for every case, to link them back to their origin (or rather, their entry point to the country).

Where other countries have 'wave 1', 'wave 2' and 'wave 3', we have 'The international airport check-in clerk cluster', the 'airport transfer limo driver cluster' and so on. And our health authorities can (and do) determine the contagion path for every single case contracted within our borders.

Our evidence strongly indicates a higher R₀ for Delta.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Can somebody please explain how the UK can have a vaccination rate pushing 70% while also having an exponentially increasing spread of Covid-19? Isn't the vaccine working?

https://ourworldindata.org/explorer...NK~SWE~IDN&Metric=People+vaccinated+(by+dose)

https://ourworldindata.org/explorer...aks=false&country=USA~GBR~DEU~ITA~IND~DNK~SWE

No, the Delta variant isn't an answer. The vaccine should protect against it. As well as having a prior infection. If a smaller and smaller group of people are able to transmit a disease why does it keep increasing? Something doesn't add up.

Delta is a lot more transmissible. It's hitting the unvaccinated population a lot harder and there are also some breakthrough cases although they're mostly mild. Note, also, that the vaccinated rate is only looking at the number who got their shots, not looking at whether the vaccine took. If your immune system is weak enough vaccines don't do much.

On TWIV they said that Delta's quicker spread correlates to shift in policy and more risky human behaviour. They don't think there's data yet to support that it's really more transmissible.

The reason it's widely believed is because newspapers like running with scary stories

It wouldn't be replacing other strains unless it was more transmissible. It's not just reporters after eyeballs.

 

[Rhea]

Indeed it makes perfect sense that in the unvaccinated population, a more transmissible variant could look just as bad as a less-transmissible variant in a larger population.

 

[TomC]

Indeed it makes perfect sense that in the unvaccinated population, a more transmissible variant could look just as bad as a less-transmissible variant in a larger population.

There's also plain old evolution.
The C19 virus is under heavy selection pressure. Viruses also mutate notoriously fast. I am not at all surprised to find mutations resulting in small advantages for the virus quickly catching hold in the human population.
Tom

 

[TSwizzle]

I was out running errands yesterday, in a couple of stores. I would say the mask less v masked was about 50/50. Finally people are starting to lose the fear that has gripped them for the past year.

 

[Shadowy Man]

I was out running errands yesterday, in a couple of stores. I would say the mask less v masked was about 50/50. Finally people are starting to lose the fear that has gripped them for the past year.

My county is 75% fully vaccinated for 12 and up and most stores now allow you to not wear a mask indoors if you’re fully vaccinated.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

The CDC is also issuing guidance on swimming in pools.

• Stay out of the water if you are sick with diarrhea. If you have been diagnosed with cryptosporidium, don't go back in the water until two weeks after diarrhea has completely stopped.
• Use test strips to make sure the water has a proper free chlorine (amount of chlorine available to kill germs) or bromine level and pH.
• Shower before you get in the water.
• Rinsing off in the shower for just 1 minute removes most of the dirt or anything else on your body that uses up chlorine or bromine needed to kill or inactivate germs.
• Don't poop in the water.
• Don't swallow the water.
• Take kids on bathroom breaks and check diapers every hour.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/07/03/us/cdc-diarrhea-swim-warning-trnd/index.html

I hope this doesn't get politicized, too.

 

[repoman]

The CDC is also issuing guidance on swimming in pools.

• Stay out of the water if you are sick with diarrhea. If you have been diagnosed with cryptosporidium, don't go back in the water until two weeks after diarrhea has completely stopped.
• Use test strips to make sure the water has a proper free chlorine (amount of chlorine available to kill germs) or bromine level and pH.
• Shower before you get in the water.
• Rinsing off in the shower for just 1 minute removes most of the dirt or anything else on your body that uses up chlorine or bromine needed to kill or inactivate germs.
• Don't poop in the water.
• Don't swallow the water.
• Take kids on bathroom breaks and check diapers every hour.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/07/03/us/cdc-diarrhea-swim-warning-trnd/index.html

I hope this doesn't get politicized, too.

I can just imagine the skit comedy for this.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

The CDC is also issuing guidance on swimming in pools.

• Stay out of the water if you are sick with diarrhea. If you have been diagnosed with cryptosporidium, don't go back in the water until two weeks after diarrhea has completely stopped.
• Use test strips to make sure the water has a proper free chlorine (amount of chlorine available to kill germs) or bromine level and pH.
• Shower before you get in the water.
• Rinsing off in the shower for just 1 minute removes most of the dirt or anything else on your body that uses up chlorine or bromine needed to kill or inactivate germs.
• Don't poop in the water.
• Don't swallow the water.
• Take kids on bathroom breaks and check diapers every hour.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/07/03/us/cdc-diarrhea-swim-warning-trnd/index.html

I hope this doesn't get politicized, too.

I can just imagine the skit comedy for this.

"My kid doesn't have to wear the diaper on all the way. He has a special health condition."

"President Trump said if you swallow the chlorinated water, it will kill the germs."

"This is America. I can poop in the water if I want to. You're a Left-wing Authoritarian!"