Defunding the Police?

[Derec]

What mainstream democrat favors defunding? It would be a republican wet dream for the democrats to adopt defunding as a campaign issue. Believe me, Biden's not this dumb!

I agree that Biden is not that dumb. But he is old school. AOC is that dumb, and she has been described as the future of the Democratic Party. Her disciple just won the primary against long-term Congressman Eliot Engel too, which means that the dumb caucus in the House will become bigger.

 

[southernhybrid]

This is what is meant by defunding the police and it worked in Camden, NJ.

I confess that I have not read this entire thread and apologize if someone has already mentioned the success that Camden had when the city defunded its police department. That doesn't mean that Camden doesn't have police. The city just felt that there was so much corruption and racism in the department, that the only way to fix it was to fire all of the police and start from scratch.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/09/us/disband-police-camden-new-jersey-trnd/index.html

The city, home to a population about 17% of Minneapolis' size, dissolved its police department in 2012 and replaced it with an entirely new one after corruption rendered the existing agency unfixable.
Before its police reforms, Camden was routinely named one of the most violent cities in the US.
Now, seven years after the old department was booted (though around 100 officers were rehired), the city's crime has dropped by close to half. Officers host outdoor parties for residents and knock on doors to introduce themselves. It's a radically different Camden than it was even a decade ago. Here's how they did it.

Camden dissolved its police department to root out corruption.
The city's crime rate was among the worst in the US. Within nine square miles and among nearly 75,000 residents, there were over 170 open-air drug markets reported in 2013, county officials told CNN. Violent crime abounded. Police corruption was at the core.
Lawsuits filed against the department uncovered that officers routinely planted evidence on suspects, fabricated reports and committed perjury. After the corruption was exposed, courts overturned the convictions of 88 people, the ACLU reported in 2013.
So in 2012, officials voted to completely disband the department -- it was beyond reform.
And in 2013, the Camden County Police Department officially began its tenure. No other city of Camden's size has done anything quite like it.

Louis Cappelli, Camden County freeholder director (another term for a county-level public official), said the department still has a ways to go, but its efforts over the last seven years have been largely successful.
"Back then residents of Camden city absolutely feared the police department and members of the department," he told CNN. "They (the residents) wanted that to change."
Violent crimes have dropped 42% in seven years, according to city crime data provided by the department. The crime rate has dropped from 79 per 1,000 to 44 per 1,000, the data shows.

t starts from an officer's first day: When a new recruit joins the force, they're required to knock on the doors of homes in the neighborhood they're assigned to patrol, he said. They introduce themselves and ask neighbors what needs improving.
Training emphasizes deescalation, he said, and the department's use of force policy makes clear that deadly force is the last option.
Now, police host pop-up barbecues and pull up in Mister Softee trucks to get to know residents, Cappelli said. They host drive-in movie nights -- recently, the movie of choice was "The Lion King" -- along what used to be known as the city's "Heroin Highway."
The community-first initiative has made improving diversity within the force a priority, too. Whites are the minority in Camden, so Cappelli said the new department has hired more black and brown officers to serve black and brown residents. (Cappelli didn't have exact numbers for the increase, but said it's improved.)

It's not perfect but Camden is making progress. Below is a comment from a long time black resident.

"The demographics of the city do not reflect these demographics," he said. "With a white chief, as thoughtful and progressive as he is, and only one African American captain out of seven, both the dynamics and optics of race are a problem."
What has improved, he said, is officers' willingness to have a "productive dialogue" between police and community leaders like him. And the city "does feel much safer at the neighborhood level" since police started shuttering open-air drug markets.
As for abolishing police entirely, Ojii said the city is "far away from any practical de-policed reality" partly because of the crime that still exists there.
"I would prefer to nail some best practices for policing as it should be," he said, as the city -- and society -- figures out how to change law enforcement as it exists now.

Camden County Police Chief Joseph Wysocki marched with Camden residents in a "Black Lives Matter" protest in May. Hearing him acknowledge the "rightful pain, anger and frustration" black residents feel about police brutality was powerful, Watson said.
Watson and Ojii agreed the city's problems remain unsolved. Those require more work than a shift in law enforcement alone can provide.
"We can't police our way out of social issues, unemployment, disproportionate health issues, economic challenges -- these are things that drive crime," Watson said.
When the city improves access to education for its residents, they'll better understand systemic racism within law enforcement and how to dismantle it, she said.
"There are so many issues in our city, outside of policing, that promote a constant level of tension," Ojii said, naming gentrification, poverty and addiction among them. "In essence, Camden remains a tale of two cities."

As a native of NJ, I knew some of the horrible problems that faced Camden, and while it's obvious that not all of the cities problems have been solved by what was done to their police department, this was obviously a good start. Not all police departments are as corrupt as the one that was in Camden, but many cities have many racist and corrupt police who need to be removed. There are many ways that a police department can be improved, but in the worst cases, I think it's a good idea to do away with the police department as it currently is and replace it with something better.

 

[Derec]

I confess that I have not read this entire thread and apologize if someone has already mentioned the success that Camden had when the city defunded its police department. That doesn't mean that Camden doesn't have police. The city just felt that there was so much corruption and racism in the department, that the only way to fix it was to fire all of the police and start from scratch.

Not quite. It wasn't really "racism", but the incompetence of the city government running the police. So Chris Christie had the county take over. CNN is misconstruing what really happened here.
Note that the anti-police crowd didn't like the change, partly because the new county police was more proactive about crime and also because too many officers were white (oh the horrors!).

"The demographics of the city do not reflect these demographics," he said. "With a white chief, as thoughtful and progressive as he is, and only one African American captain out of seven, both the dynamics and optics of race are a problem."

So is that "Justice Minister" of a church saying that chief of police as well as captains should automatically be black? That's some racist shit right there!
.

As for abolishing police entirely, Ojii said the city is "far away from any practical de-policed reality" partly because of the crime that still exists there.

It is illusion to think that there exists a "practical de-policed reality".

"We can't police our way out of social issues, unemployment, disproportionate health issues, economic challenges -- these are things that drive crime," Watson said.
When the city improves access to education for its residents, they'll better understand systemic racism within law enforcement and how to dismantle it, she said.

No, that would not be education, that would be propaganda.

"There are so many issues in our city, outside of policing, that promote a constant level of tension," Ojii said, naming gentrification, poverty and addiction among them. "In essence, Camden remains a tale of two cities."

Why such hostility to gentrification? Gentrification means improving neighborhoods. It means more investment.

As a native of NJ, I knew some of the horrible problems that faced Camden, and while it's obvious that not all of the cities problems have been solved by what was done to their police department, this was obviously a good start. Not all police departments are as corrupt as the one that was in Camden, but many cities have many racist and corrupt police who need to be removed. There are many ways that a police department can be improved, but in the worst cases, I think it's a good idea to do away with the police department as it currently is and replace it with something better.

I doubt the City Soviet of Minneapolis for example would like to have Hennepin County take over.

 

[southernhybrid]

First of all, Derec, your comments have nothing to do with the intention of my post, which was written to give an example of how defunding the police can work.

It doesn't matter what the underlying reasons were as to why Camden took these drastic measures. Then point is that the measures are working. Whether the police were racist or simply corrupt or both, Camden had a huge problem with police corruption and it needed to change. I personally believe that racism had plenty to do with the way the police treated black folks, including planting evidence on them. I'm not aware of the police in any white majority city frequently planting drugs and such on white suspects. Do you know of one? If so, please share it.

I will also say that defunding is a poor choice of words to describe what is actually reforming the police. People totally misunderstand it when defunding is used instead of reforming. Sure, there are a small percentage of people who might want to see all policing ended. I can understand where they are coming from, but it's highly idealistic, not realistic. Police reform is what's badly needed in many if not most police departments in the US.

And, right now, there are many large cities that have or are considering cutting way back on their police departments. I think some were mentioned in the linked article. I'm not happy about living in what often seems like a police state. It's time to change things. The police need to get to know the people in the neighborhoods they serve. It's sickening to see them ride around with blacked out windows, targeting minority males like they often do.

While it may not be a huge problem in my small city, I've witnessed one example of the racism exhibited by the local police. Black citizens need to have the exact same consideration and privilege that white people enjoy. When the local police insist that they have the right to demand ID from all of the occupants of any car full of young black men, they are violating the 4th amendment rights of those men. That is what has happened in my city. It's wrong, just like stop and frisk is wrong, or don't you think that young black males should enjoy the same rights as you?

Next time you reply to someone's post, I hope you don't go off on small tangents that are unrelated to the intention of the post.

 

[angelo]

Considering the percentage of African/Americans and other minorities as compared to the vast majority of Americans, why is it surprising that the former are the largest groups to be arrested and incarcerated?

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/tables/table-21

 

[Patooka]

Considering the percentage of African/Americans and other minorities as compared to the vast majority of Americans, why is it surprising that the former are the largest groups to be arrested and incarcerated?

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/tables/table-21

A certain other ex-forumer tried the same asinine shit. How heartening it is to see you are peddling the same bullshit claims.

Simply put, fuck you 13/50 assertions. They've been debunked to death. Nice to see you showing your true colours though.

 

[angelo]

Considering the percentage of African/Americans and other minorities as compared to the vast majority of Americans, why is it surprising that the former are the largest groups to be arrested and incarcerated?

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/tables/table-21

A certain other ex-forumer tried the same asinine shit. How heartening it is to see you are peddling the same bullshit claims.

Simply put, fuck you 13/50 assertions. They've been debunked to death. Nice to see you showing your true colours though.

Are you implying all those figures are fabricated?

 

[Patooka]

Considering the percentage of African/Americans and other minorities as compared to the vast majority of Americans, why is it surprising that the former are the largest groups to be arrested and incarcerated?

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/tables/table-21

A certain other ex-forumer tried the same asinine shit. How heartening it is to see you are peddling the same bullshit claims.

Simply put, fuck you 13/50 assertions. They've been debunked to death. Nice to see you showing your true colours though.

Are you implying all those figures are fabricated?

I am stating you are interpreting them in the most moronic asinine way possible. No implication needed. What was your intention of point out the 13/50 talking point? Or is this your usual debating technique of flinging shit to a wall and seeing what sticks?

 

[angelo]

Moronic asinine way? A minority of people are incarcerated way more than the majority because they commit more crimes than the majority isn't true but moronic thinking? HTF do you come to that conclusion?

 

[Patooka]

So just flinging shit then. Good to know,

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Considering the percentage of African/Americans and other minorities as compared to the vast majority of Americans, why is it surprising that the former are the largest groups to be arrested and incarcerated?

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/tables/table-21

A certain other ex-forumer tried the same asinine shit. How heartening it is to see you are peddling the same bullshit claims.

Simply put, fuck you 13/50 assertions. They've been debunked to death. Nice to see you showing your true colours though.

Just because you don't like his data doesn't make this one bunk. Multiple measures of the crime rate by race give about the same values. While there are no doubt racist police there isn't any substantial racial bias in policing other than when it comes to robbing drug dealers. (And that's because they're easier pickings.)

While we do have a police problem it's socioeconomic plus police administering field justice.

 

[Derec]

First of all, Derec, your comments have nothing to do with the intention of my post, which was written to give an example of how defunding the police can work.

But police wasn't really defunded, not in the sense anti-police activists want it to be. And in fact, these activists do not like the changes in Camden much.
Is Camden a model for police reform? Activists who live there don't think so

It doesn't matter what the underlying reasons were as to why Camden took these drastic measures. Then point is that the measures are working. Whether the police were racist or simply corrupt or both, Camden had a huge problem with police corruption and it needed to change. I personally believe that racism had plenty to do with the way the police treated black folks, including planting evidence on them. I'm not aware of the police in any white majority city frequently planting drugs and such on white suspects. Do you know of one? If so, please share it.

Nobody should be planting drugs on anybody; we agree there. But indeed, crooked cops plant drugs on white people too.

I will also say that defunding is a poor choice of words to describe what is actually reforming the police. People totally misunderstand it when defunding is used instead of reforming. Sure, there are a small percentage of people who might want to see all policing ended. I can understand where they are coming from, but it's highly idealistic, not realistic. Police reform is what's badly needed in many if not most police departments in the US.

I would not call it "idealistic" but "idiotic". In any case, while people may agree that police and juctice system should be reformed we would disagree what direction that should go in.

And, right now, there are many large cities that have or are considering cutting way back on their police departments.

A huge mistake for sure.

I think some were mentioned in the linked article. I'm not happy about living in what often seems like a police state.

And I would not be happy living in an area where crime is rampant, or - like what is happening in Atlanta and elsewhere - armed racist black militants are occupying blocks and blockading streets not letting white people though and the city government and ATLPD not doing enough to stop it.

It's time to change things. The police need to get to know the people in the neighborhoods they serve. It's sickening to see them ride around with blacked out windows, targeting minority males like they often do.

Are they really "targeting minority males"? Or are they confronting individuals suspected of crimes?

While it may not be a huge problem in my small city, I've witnessed one example of the racism exhibited by the local police. Black citizens need to have the exact same consideration and privilege that white people enjoy.

I agree, but I do not agree that they do not currently.

When the local police insist that they have the right to demand ID from all of the occupants of any car full of young black men, they are violating the 4th amendment rights of those men.

Has a court ever found that asking id of occupants is illegal when those occupants are black? If a cop asks id of white people, is that more acceptable to you?

That is what has happened in my city. It's wrong, just like stop and frisk is wrong, or don't you think that young black males should enjoy the same rights as you?

I definitely think they should enjoy the same rights as me. That means that if a cop thinks I may be packing he should stop, question and frisk me if appropriate. Same should happen with another person who happens to be black.

Next time you reply to someone's post, I hope you don't go off on small tangents that are unrelated to the intention of the post.

Road to hell and all that. Camden is not a good example of what anti-police activists mean by "defund police".

 

[steve_bank]

Defund means change to community based policing instead of roving police cars looking for bad guys. There have been several media reports of Newark NJ which restructured and made a drastic reduction in murder and crime.

Police integrating in the community instead of responding to calls as an armed intrusive enforcer.

Some protesters in Seattle demand complete elimination of police and jail. Offenders to be dealt with by the community, without specifics. Rehabilitated by the community.

Seattle is reducing the scope of police responsibility. No more dealing with homeless, mentally ill, and domestic problems unless it gets out of hand. That makes sense. Searle has a small group of trained people to respond and that will be expanded.

 

[angelo]

Defund means change to community based policing instead of roving police cars looking for bad guys. There have been several media reports of Newark NJ which restructured and made a drastic reduction in murder and crime.

Police integrating in the community instead of responding to calls as an armed intrusive enforcer.

Some protesters in Seattle demand complete elimination of police and jail. Offenders to be dealt with by the community, without specifics. Rehabilitated by the community.

Seattle is reducing the scope of police responsibility. No more dealing with homeless, mentally ill, and domestic problems unless it gets out of hand. That makes sense. Searle has a small group of trained people to respond and that will be expanded.

You are aware that with community policing you could end up with a lynch mob mentality?

 

[Politesse]

Ah, yes, social workers. Always turning into lynch mobs, those social workers. Ought to be locked up.

 

[Trausti]

Would think depolicing and replacement by social workers would lead to many injured and dead social workers.

 

[Testy Calibrate]

Would think depolicing and replacement by social workers would lead to many injured and dead social workers.

But far fewer dead innocent civilians. The trolley problem is hard.

 

[Testy Calibrate]

The more I think about it, the more a RICO style law for cops makes sense to me. A mandatory 10 years for a cop not reporting a crime committed by another cop with a reasonable person standard of evidence and a state court staffed by judges and prosecutors elected by public defenders. Plus mandatory sentences for physical abuse, planting/falsifying evidence, entrapment, and the other usual suspects. Break the thin blue line.

The alternative is just going ahead and treating cops as an occupying hostile power.

 

[Trausti]

We should make being a police officer so onerous and shameful that no one would want to be a cop. Then we can get back to the good o’l days of self-help and blood feuds. And no need to pay taxes anymore, ‘cause who’s gonna enforce that?

 

[Testy Calibrate]

We should make being a police officer so onerous and shameful that no one would want to be a cop. Then we can get back to the good o’l days of self-help and blood feuds. And no need to pay taxes anymore, ‘cause who’s gonna enforce that?

If that's how you see accountability measures then I guess that's how you see them. I will just continue to treat cops as the enemy of the people until there are some accountability measures with teeth enacted.