Dem Post Mortem

[Bomb#20]

oh good grief
So they decided to go with an old white guy.

Thanks TSwizzle for getting back to the actual topic of this thread. The incessant sniping has gotten tiresome.

Maybe so, but the incessant sniping is on-topic. It goes to the amount of Democrats who keep acting like they want to turn the Democratic Party from big-tent to small-tent. Attacks by Democrats who think like ZH against Democrats who think like EL for ideological impurity, and their refusal to compromise with them on policy, appear to me to be a significant factor in Democrats' election losses.

Dems need to do better.

^^^^ This. ^^^^

 

[Bomb#20]

Perhaps we should ask people here a question: please name one conservative who is not an asshole? It may not really clarify anything but I'd be interested in the answer.

Thomas Sowell

 

[Derec]

WRONG. The thread isn't a safe space for everyone to go on ad infinitum about the Democratic Party.

Apparently it is now a safe space to go on ad infinitum about MAGAs shitting their pants and posting clips from cheap sci-fi shows.

It has a scope and that scope was modified by you and others to attack Democrats.

The scope is "Dem Post Mortem". That includes criticism of the current Democratic Party that lost an election they should have won. I guess that is unpopular around here, except to complain that Dems have not gone to the left enough.

It was about the narrow issue of what happened with the election.

And also what should be done by the Democrats in the aftermath. In any case, criticism of the current state of the Democratic Party is infinitely more on topic than the nonsense that has dominated this thread lately.

The answer was the economy or perceptions thereof. Even the issue of immigration was largely about the economy.

Economy was important, but it was not the whole thing. Issues with immigration are also cultural.
Or take the issue of "affirmative action", lately rebranded as DEI. Racial preferences are broadly very unpopular. The referendum to reimpose racial preferences in California failed decisively in one of the most left-wing states in the Union in a year (2020) that should have been favorable to such a move (i.e. the whole hullabaloo over George Floyd and race).
And yet, even knowing how unpopular it is among the electorate, Dems have largely doubled down on it.
‘This Is Not a Normal Court’: Biden Denounces Affirmative-Action Ruling
And going even further, many Dems have embraced race-based reparations.
Reparations Are a Financial Quandary. For Democrats, They’re a Political One, Too.

For decades, the question was mostly academic. Then it was seized on by Democrats and activists during a time of racial re-examination after the murder of George Floyd in 2020, and a number of cities and states set up commissions to study reparations to Black Americans.
[...]
A California task force recently recommended more than $500 billion in reparations to Black residents. San Francisco is considering compensation of $100 billion. And Representative Cori Bush of Missouri said $14 trillion was the true national cost.
[...]
Democrats in Congress have been introducing a bill since 1989 to create a commission to study reparations, H.R. 40, which is named for the failed Civil War-era promise to freed slaves of “40 acres and a mule.” In 2021, the bill passed the House Judiciary Committee for the first time, but it did not receive a floor vote.
Momentum on the issue shifted in recent years to the state and municipal level. Evanston, Ill., agreed to pay $25,000 to longtime Black residents who suffered under housing discrimination prior to 1970. Asheville, N.C., allocated $2.1 million for reparations that a commission is studying how to spend.
“Talk of reparations for Black Americans is not going away,” said Marc Morial, president of the National Urban League, noting that the federal government paid some forms of reparations to Japanese Americans after their internment in World War II. “This remains unfinished business. The fact that California has done something is a demonstration of the currency of this issue.”

This type of shit is really damaging the Democratic Party brand. And that is on topic here, unlike Gandhi or your claim that all conservatives are assholes.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

It was the economy.

[/thread]

 

[Derec]

Someone like John McCain singing "bomb bomb bomb Iran" suddenly became a hero

He wasn't wrong though. The regime in Tehran is responsible for many bad things in the world today, including the Gazan war of aggression against Israel.

Btw, that song is pretty old. It goes back to the ayatollahs taking over that country and invading our embassy, taking hundreds of people hostage.

 

[Bomb#20]

her irrational advocacies for laws that hurt people and benefit nobody, but comport with religious edicts.

Can you provide an example of such?

Who is helped by cracking down on gays and lesbians?

Like cracking down on lesbians who want to be athletes, by requiring them to let men spike balls into their heads or punch them in the face, in order to comport with a religious edict? Maybe cracking down on them helps the men who injure them; I'm not sure who else it helps. But Emily doesn't advocate for laws that crack down on those lesbians; quite the reverse. Which laws cracking down on gays and lesbians have you ever seen Emily advocate, irrationally or otherwise?

 

[Derec]

He was really REALLY racist.

But he once had an affair with a white woman. He would dip his bald head in oil and rub it all over her body.

 

[Derec]

It was the economy.

[/thread]

That is too fatalistic. Yes, there were economic headwinds for Dems. Some inflation was unavoidable because of the Pandemic, but this election was very much winnable, and saying otherwise lets the Biden administration off the hook for bad choices from trying to pass the $3,500,000,000,000.00 Spendapalooza to not stepping down in Summer 2023 allowing for a real primary season.

I think the seed of 2024 defeat came not in 2020, but earlier, in 2018. That's when the Resistance managed to pull Democrats to the Left when the Squad first came into the Congress. The 2020 primary season, which started in 2019, saw Democratic candidates move to the left on energy, immigration, healthcare etc. Biden was ostensibly a moderate, but he governed from the Left with FDR-esque spending plans.

Now, I do not have any illusions that this criticism will be well received by most here. The received wisdom on this forum is that Dems have not gone too far enough. I vehemently disagree though.

 

[Bomb#20]

You've stopped beating your wife, right? Your question assumes facts not in evidence. I don't recall ever seeing Emily deliberately misrepresent somebody else's position. Misunderstand one, certainly; we all do that from time to time. If your attacks on me weren't because I didn't "spew enough hate", well, that's how you came off to her. But since you think using strawmen is "a long and well recognized habit" of hers, you should have no trouble exhibiting a better example, which we can review together.

Here you go. Three strawmen all in one post by EL.

Why do you believe that Trump's view is representative of all conservatives?

What leads you to feel that the ads for a single specific candidate represent the views of all conservatives?

What mockery did Fox push that specified college educations? Why do you assume that infotainment has the beliefs of all conservatives nailed?

Why do you argue using strawmen?

Her post was in response to these two:

But those both come with the same gendered suffix problem that "Latinx" was trying to solve.

What "gendered suffix problem" did Latinos want to be solved?

...did younger and more politically and issue driven Latinos want to solve?

Sounds more like gringo Wokesters telling Latinos how to use their language. Because the gender norms they adhere to Must Be Respected!

Not really. It was young Latinos aiming at inclusion, and the term never really took off, because it wasn't well publicized (only half of Latinos polled have heard it!) nor was there an apparent widespread desire to adopt it.

It never caught on with Latinos in general, but it is still used routinely by the Spanish-speaking LGBTQ community, and as a result is pretty common in academic spaces across Latin America. Since conservatives hate Mexicans, trans people, and college education, it's a perfect wedge issue.

Since conservatives hate Mexicans, trans people, and college education

What leads you to believe that conservatives hate mexicans,

Immigrants in general? The whole "they are eating the pets" thing.

or hate trans people

Did you not see the Harris is with They/Them, He is with You ad? Are you out in California where only the House races are potentially competitive? The ads in Ohio were brutally anti-transgender.

or hare college education?

You mean other than the 30+ years of mocking people with college educations, at least on Fox News and AM Radio. Of course, all of the elected Republicans have one, and typically from the elite Ivy League schools the propaganda mill mocks.

It isn't a strawman when the imputed belief follows directly from the other poster's claim. Politesse didn't say *"some conservatives hate Mexicans, trans people, and college education". He didn't say *"a lot of conservatives hate Mexicans, trans people, and college education". He didn't even say *"most conservatives hate Mexicans, trans people, and college education". He said "conservatives hate Mexicans, trans people, and college education". And then JH defended Politesse's claim as it was written, without any sort of #notallconservatives acknowledgement. Imagine when Trump said of Mexicans "They're rapists", somebody had reacted by asking him why he believes all Mexicans are rapists. Would you have accused the person of strawmanning Trump?

 

[pood]

Perhaps we should ask people here a question: please name one conservative who is not an asshole? It may not really clarify anything but I'd be interested in the answer.

Thomas Sowell

Perhaps he’s not an asshole, or not just an asshole. I’d say he’s a total asshole.

This is a guy who wrote in 2020 that the U.S. would fall like the Roman Empire if Biden got elected. Just one nugget among his cornucopia of total assholic idiocies.

 

[ZiprHead]

He was really REALLY racist.

But he once had an affair with a white woman. He would dip his bald head in oil and rub it all over her body.

Apparently it is now a safe space to go on ad infinitum about MAGAs shitting their pants and posting clips from cheap sci-fi shows.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

It was the economy.

[/thread]

That is too fatalistic. Yes, there were economic headwinds for Dems. Some inflation was unavoidable because of the Pandemic, but this election was very much winnable, and saying otherwise lets the Biden administration off the hook for bad choices from trying to pass the $3,500,000,000,000.00 Spendapalooza to not stepping down in Summer 2023 allowing for a real primary season.

I think the seed of 2024 defeat came not in 2020, but earlier, in 2018. That's when the Resistance managed to pull Democrats to the Left when the Squad first came into the Congress. The 2020 primary season, which started in 2019, saw Democratic candidates move to the left on energy, immigration, healthcare etc. Biden was ostensibly a moderate, but he governed from the Left with FDR-esque spending plans.

Now, I do not have any illusions that this criticism will be well received by most here. The received wisdom on this forum is that Dems have not gone too far enough. I vehemently disagree though.

No, no, and no. It was the economy (and immigration, but immigration is intermingled with the economy). Polling showed this.

So, again:
[/thread]

 

[laughing dog]

Impugning all ________ (fill in the blank with every type except Nazis and cannibals) is overdone.

Impugning all cannibals is overdone. You'd do it too if it was the only way to survive a plane crash in the Andes.

Only if there were Nazis.

 

[Politesse]

I don't know what you go to, to define conservativism, if not the things conservatives say and do. What am I supposed to do, just sit here and pretend their very loud and widely published positions are some sort of unknowable holy mystery? I am well aware that not all conservatives agree with all of Trump's "planks", but that to my mind makes them complex people. It doesn't change the political goals or effects of conservatism in general. I have some classically "conservative" beliefs myself, on a few issues. That doesn't make "liberals" any less supportive of those particular issues, it just means I occupy the middle space on the liberal to conservative spectrum. As, indeed, most people do. People aren't walking stereotypes, but that does not obviate the possibility of consistent-ish meaning in political labels. A label is not a person.

 

[Elixir]

I don't know what you go to, to define conservativism,

These days it is mostly indistinguishable from mobsterism.

 

[Politesse]

Three weeks ago, every Republican and almost every Democrat I talked to in the state save for a handful of fellow "radical progressives" (ie literate, engaged citizens) told me it was "paranoia" to suppose that Trump could or would unilaterally end the Department of Education. Two weeks ago, our district chancellor ordered us all to stop "spreading rumors" about the likelihood of a closure, because it was freaking out the students and might "negatively impact enrollment trends".

Well, here we are. And wouldn't you know it. Trump did exactly what he told everyone he was planning to do. It will absolutely affect enrollment trends. And all these people who refused to "believe" the obvious are belatedly panicking and running around with their chicken's heads cut off, because they chose to deny reality instead of planning for it.

This was never a conspiracy theory. Because conspiracies are by definition secret. This was not. But the average American is apparently too stupid and unlettered to read a campaign document that uses no "big words" and was probably written in Sharpie on the first draft.

The Democrats fail because they do nothing. It doesn't matter how many trillions you spend on TV ads if you do nothing, promise nothing, and every knows that you do nothing and promise nothing. The problem isn't the campaign, or the candidate, but the Party.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Three weeks ago, every Republican and almost every Democrat I talked to in the state save for a handful of fellow "radical progressives" (ie literate, engaged citizens) told me it was "paranoia" to suppose that Trump could or would unilaterally end the Department of Education. Two weeks ago, our district chancellor ordered us all to stop "spreading rumors" about the likelihood of a closure, because it was freaking out the students and might "negatively impact enrollment trends".

Well, here we are. And wouldn't you know it. Trump did exactly what he told everyone he was planning to do. It will absolutely affect enrollment trends. And all these people who refused to "believe" the obvious are belatedly panicking and running around with their chicken's heads cut off, because they chose to deny reality instead of planning for it.

This was never a conspiracy theory. Because conspiracies are by definition secret. This was not. But the average American is apparently too stupid and unlettered to read a campaign document that uses no "big words" and was probably written in Sharpie on the first draft.

The Democrats fail because they do nothing. It doesn't matter how many trillions you spend on TV ads if you do nothing, promise nothing, and every knows that you do nothing and promise nothing. The problem isn't the campaign, or the candidate, but the Party.

What would you like democrats to do? They control nothing. Do you want us to stage a Jan 6 style storming of the capitol?

 

[Politesse]

Three weeks ago, every Republican and almost every Democrat I talked to in the state save for a handful of fellow "radical progressives" (ie literate, engaged citizens) told me it was "paranoia" to suppose that Trump could or would unilaterally end the Department of Education. Two weeks ago, our district chancellor ordered us all to stop "spreading rumors" about the likelihood of a closure, because it was freaking out the students and might "negatively impact enrollment trends".

Well, here we are. And wouldn't you know it. Trump did exactly what he told everyone he was planning to do. It will absolutely affect enrollment trends. And all these people who refused to "believe" the obvious are belatedly panicking and running around with their chicken's heads cut off, because they chose to deny reality instead of planning for it.

This was never a conspiracy theory. Because conspiracies are by definition secret. This was not. But the average American is apparently too stupid and unlettered to read a campaign document that uses no "big words" and was probably written in Sharpie on the first draft.

The Democrats fail because they do nothing. It doesn't matter how many trillions you spend on TV ads if you do nothing, promise nothing, and every knows that you do nothing and promise nothing. The problem isn't the campaign, or the candidate, but the Party.

What would you like democrats to do? They control nothing.

And why is that?

 

[Jarhyn]

Three weeks ago, every Republican and almost every Democrat I talked to in the state save for a handful of fellow "radical progressives" (ie literate, engaged citizens) told me it was "paranoia" to suppose that Trump could or would unilaterally end the Department of Education. Two weeks ago, our district chancellor ordered us all to stop "spreading rumors" about the likelihood of a closure, because it was freaking out the students and might "negatively impact enrollment trends".

Well, here we are. And wouldn't you know it. Trump did exactly what he told everyone he was planning to do. It will absolutely affect enrollment trends. And all these people who refused to "believe" the obvious are belatedly panicking and running around with their chicken's heads cut off, because they chose to deny reality instead of planning for it.

This was never a conspiracy theory. Because conspiracies are by definition secret. This was not. But the average American is apparently too stupid and unlettered to read a campaign document that uses no "big words" and was probably written in Sharpie on the first draft.

The Democrats fail because they do nothing. It doesn't matter how many trillions you spend on TV ads if you do nothing, promise nothing, and every knows that you do nothing and promise nothing. The problem isn't the campaign, or the candidate, but the Party.

Next time you are in this situation, put them over a barrel (if there is a next time). You need to figure out a way to get your boss to put it on writing when they put the brakes on you that if they did so on error, they lose something and you win something.

You need to make it cost them something to not believe his plain words.

 

[southernhybrid]

Three weeks ago, every Republican and almost every Democrat I talked to in the state save for a handful of fellow "radical progressives" (ie literate, engaged citizens) told me it was "paranoia" to suppose that Trump could or would unilaterally end the Department of Education. Two weeks ago, our district chancellor ordered us all to stop "spreading rumors" about the likelihood of a closure, because it was freaking out the students and might "negatively impact enrollment trends".

Well, here we are. And wouldn't you know it. Trump did exactly what he told everyone he was planning to do. It will absolutely affect enrollment trends. And all these people who refused to "believe" the obvious are belatedly panicking and running around with their chicken's heads cut off, because they chose to deny reality instead of planning for it.

This was never a conspiracy theory. Because conspiracies are by definition secret. This was not. But the average American is apparently too stupid and unlettered to read a campaign document that uses no "big words" and was probably written in Sharpie on the first draft.

The Democrats fail because they do nothing. It doesn't matter how many trillions you spend on TV ads if you do nothing, promise nothing, and every knows that you do nothing and promise nothing. The problem isn't the campaign, or the candidate, but the Party.

What would you like democrats to do? They control nothing.

And why is that?

Imo, one of the biggest reason is because far too many people never or rarely vote. When I was still working there was only one young woman who voted. I convinced another one and her middle aged mom to register to vote for the first time ever, when Obama was running. They liked him because they were Black. Plus they preferred the Democratic Party over the Republicans. Then when the midterms came around, she didn't bother to vote, using the excuse that she had to work on Election Day. I told her that we had 3 full weeks of early voting, which she didn't know. Why? Because she never bothered to watch or read the news. I was a bit pissed at her and she promised me she'd never miss another election. I hope she has been voting but since I retired 6 years ago, I have no way of knowing for sure.

The other young women gave me all kinds of weird excuses as to why they never voted, including the false believe that voting registrations are used for jury duty and they didn't want jury duty. Only a couple of men worked there and they were in maintenance. I think they both had been in prison in the past, but they could have voted and didn't know it and didn't seem to care. A lot of my patients never voted either, other than the ones who voted for Republicans. They just didn't seem to care, despite the fact that most of the ones who never voted were relying on M'caid for their healthcare and to live in the facility. One of the women at our senior center told me a few years ago that she never votes in the midterms. Almost of these people would vote for the Democratic Party if they bothered to vote. Oh yeah. Another excuse is "my vote doesn't count". It's voter apathy that is imo, the biggest problem in Georgia, based on my years of trying to convince non voters to vote. A close Black friend of mine, finally convinced her two middle aged kids to vote when Trump ran, as he scared the shit out of them. If every person would vote, the Democrats would win a lot more elections. I know plenty of low information Republicans who always votes. WTF!

Now the Republican assholes in Georgia are trying to make it harder for people to vote. There may be a bill under consideration to eliminate or cut back on early voting, make it more difficult to vote absentee and do away with automatic voter registration when you get or renew your driver's license. It's stupid for a lot of reasons, and it may hurt their own voters as well as the Dems. It may not pass but the fact that they even are trying to suppress the vote is disgusting.