Dem Post Mortem

[Bomb#20]

I assure you not many Trump voters would appreciate being called "Yanks", either their great-greats were all on the wrong side of the war, or they wish they were. Fighting and dying by the hundreds of thousands, watching all the great cities of the South burn to the ground, all so their bosses/landlords could keep their household slaves. Is there any nobler or ennobling cause imaginable?

Trump Supporters with they were Democrats????

Unless they are recent immigrants, Trump supporters by and large ARE the descendants of Democrats, those Democrats, and would once have been proud of the label. However, few are on good terms with the Democrats of today, who they see as having sold themselves out, and sold their consituents out, to the "coastal elites", variously imagined as a sort of cabal of university presidents, celebrities, and liberal politicians whose values are antithetical to the American way of life as they understand it.

Yes, all those evil southern Trump supporters living in *checks notes* Wisconsin and Michigan and Pennsylvania.

This myth that you're creating for yourself... have you considered introducing some reality into it? You've created this self-soothing narrative where everyone who voted for Trump is an evil racist who wishes slavery were still legal. The only problem is that Dems lost share among every voting cohort except white men. So your feel-good-those-people-are-evil story is effectively painting black, hispanic, and other minority voters as being racist slavery-apologists.

Are you under the impression that this is the Independent Post Mortem thread? This is the Dem Post Mortem thread. Self-soothing narratives are the whole point!

 

[Politesse]

Ah, so you believe good manners are only owed to polite people?

Non sequitur. Perhaps she believes good manners are owed both to polite people and also to people who practice bad manners only reciprocally.

Perhaps she said "crap" where I would have said "shit", and perhaps that makes me a rube, but if you ask me, dismissing someone else's contributions to a conversation without acknowledgement is impolite on a much more fundamental level than is saying a grown-up word to fellow grown-ups.

 

[ZiprHead]

The left’s best defense against Trump? Ditching limousine liberalism | Dustin Guastella

An effective fight against the president-elect requires a struggle that takes the frustrations of working-class voters seriously

www.theguardian.com

Act dumb and talk simple.

 

[jonatha]

The left’s best defense against Trump? Ditching limousine liberalism | Dustin Guastella

An effective fight against the president-elect requires a struggle that takes the frustrations of working-class voters seriously

www.theguardian.com

Act dumb and talk simple.

Don't forget to lie at every possible opportunity

 

[bigfield]

The left’s best defense against Trump? Ditching limousine liberalism | Dustin Guastella

An effective fight against the president-elect requires a struggle that takes the frustrations of working-class voters seriously

www.theguardian.com

Act dumb and talk simple.

I didn't like the article because it doesn't really substantiate "the frustrations of working-class voters" or how cultural values differ between elites and the working class, but Guastella has an article on Jacobin which lays out more evidence:

Here’s How Economic Populism Can Win

To win competitive districts, left-wing candidates must challenge both economic oligarchy and cultural elitism.

jacobin.com

 

[thebeave]

The left’s best defense against Trump? Ditching limousine liberalism | Dustin Guastella

An effective fight against the president-elect requires a struggle that takes the frustrations of working-class voters seriously

www.theguardian.com

Act dumb and talk simple.

Your comment makes it pretty easy to see why the working class are turning away from the Democrat party.

 

[ZiprHead]

The left’s best defense against Trump? Ditching limousine liberalism | Dustin Guastella

An effective fight against the president-elect requires a struggle that takes the frustrations of working-class voters seriously

www.theguardian.com

Act dumb and talk simple.

Your comment makes it pretty easy to see why the working class are turning away from the Democrat party.

Yes, the working class wants dumb and simple. That is quite clear. They want to be directed and told what to do, just like at their jobs. Little thought needed. Then after work kick back at the bar and toss back a few PBRs and complain about how the big bad guvmint is out to get them because the high taxes on their employers keeps them from getting bigger wages.

Sorry. I don't kowtow to the ignorant.

 

[Elixir]

The left’s best defense against Trump? Ditching limousine liberalism | Dustin Guastella

An effective fight against the president-elect requires a struggle that takes the frustrations of working-class voters seriously

www.theguardian.com

Act dumb and talk simple.

Your comment makes it pretty easy to see why the working class are turning away from the Democrat party.

Yes, the working class wants dumb and simple. That is quite clear. They want to be directed and told what to do, just like at their jobs. Little thought needed. Then after work kick back at the bar and toss back a few PBRs and complain about how the big bad guvmint is out to get them because the high taxes on their employers keeps them from getting bigger wages.

Sorry. I don't kowtow to the ignorant.

Thing is, though, that’s not who elected The Felon. It was the Josh Hawley type. People who sincerely believe that when Trump steals everything that’s not bolted down, they will receive a handsome windfall as a reward for their fealty. The guy in the bar was never a swing vote; the Russian propaganda sold him on Trump’s divinity way back in ‘16.

 

[thebeave]

The left’s best defense against Trump? Ditching limousine liberalism | Dustin Guastella

An effective fight against the president-elect requires a struggle that takes the frustrations of working-class voters seriously

www.theguardian.com

Act dumb and talk simple.

Your comment makes it pretty easy to see why the working class are turning away from the Democrat party.

Yes, the working class wants dumb and simple. That is quite clear. They want to be directed and told what to do, just like at their jobs. Little thought needed. Then after work kick back at the bar and toss back a few PBRs and complain about how the big bad guvmint is out to get them because the high taxes on their employers keeps them from getting bigger wages.

Sorry. I don't kowtow to the ignorant.

Regardless of who the working class chooses to vote for, don't you think you're painting working class people with a pretty broad brush? Sure, some just want to clock in and clock out every day and drink away their paycheck. However, many are highly motivated, small business owners looking to maintain and grow a business in the trades (painters, plumber, electrician, etc). I know and work with quite a few individuals like this.

 

[Bomb#20]

Ah, so you believe good manners are only owed to polite people?

Non sequitur. Perhaps she believes good manners are owed both to polite people and also to people who practice bad manners only reciprocally.

... perhaps that makes me a rube, but if you ask me, dismissing someone else's contributions to a conversation without acknowledgement is impolite on a much more fundamental level than is saying a grown-up word to fellow grown-ups.

If you are sincerely under the impression that your South Park language habits are the rudest way you treat other posters here then your lack of self-knowledge is on a monumental scale. I'm pretty sure Emily cares a whole lot more about all the many ways you're impolite on a much more fundamental level than she cares which word you use for your scatological metaphors. Yes, she practices what she preaches. She has self-knowledge -- "I only jump on the throat of people who have a repeated pattern of being complete assholes in their interaction with those who don't kowtow to their belief structures." In my experience that's pretty accurate. So if Emily jumped on your throat, it's a lot more likely because you were going all "The difference between you and me is that when I meet a terrorist, my first thought is to eschew their methods, not to try and match their level of depravity" or "If you try to live a life with as much cultural complexity and emotional nuance as your average chimpanzee, I think you will stand a pretty good chance of succeeding in your goals." or "That's a painfully obvious lie." on someone than because of which four-letter word you chose.

 

[Politesse]

Ah, so you believe good manners are only owed to polite people?

Non sequitur. Perhaps she believes good manners are owed both to polite people and also to people who practice bad manners only reciprocally.

... perhaps that makes me a rube, but if you ask me, dismissing someone else's contributions to a conversation without acknowledgement is impolite on a much more fundamental level than is saying a grown-up word to fellow grown-ups.

If you are sincerely under the impression that your South Park language habits are the rudest way you treat other posters here then your lack of self-knowledge is on a monumental scale. I'm pretty sure Emily cares a whole lot more about all the many ways you're impolite on a much more fundamental level than she cares which word you use for your scatological metaphors. Yes, she practices what she preaches. She has self-knowledge -- "I only jump on the throat of people who have a repeated pattern of being complete assholes in their interaction with those who don't kowtow to their belief structures." In my experience that's pretty accurate. So if Emily jumped on your throat, it's a lot more likely because you were going all "The difference between you and me is that when I meet a terrorist, my first thought is to eschew their methods, not to try and match their level of depravity" or "If you try to live a life with as much cultural complexity and emotional nuance as your average chimpanzee, I think you will stand a pretty good chance of succeeding in your goals." or "That's a painfully obvious lie." on someone than because of which four-letter word you chose.

Are you... keeping a collection of my stinging witticisms? That's kind of creepy, my dude, get a different hobby.

 

[Politesse]

Quoting people out of context is also rude. Examples A and B, I know, were both in repsonse to "it's justified when we do it because x group does it", a rhetorical ploy I have never found convincing for the exact reason I was pointing out. We are neither terrorists nor chimpanzees, so their conduct cannot be used as a standard for evaluating our own behavior. If Emily or anyone else is upset that I have taken their "we" statements and turned them into "I/you" statements, that's a sign of illogic in and of itself. You are human and so am I. If you say that you believe "humans are inherently violent, like chimpanzees" then you are either saying "I am inherently violent, like a chimpanzee" or "I am not a human". You are also saying to the person you're talking to "I think you are inherently violent, like chimpanzees". Or, more likely, you simply haven't thought about the implications of your argument at all.

I note that in the terrorist example, though of course you offered no context, if I am remembering correctly Emily was calling for an escalation of brutal tactics in Afghanistan, an already vicious war that took the lives of hundreds of thousands of innocent people and initiated scourges of illness, malnutrition, and homelessness in both Afghanistan and in refugee communitees in the US, that continue to this very day. That, calling for an escalation of that massacre, is to me a much more egregious form of "incivility" than observing that a fellow forum poster has, in fact, said something cruel after they said something cruel. If you call for someone's death, you have no grounds to complain if in response they call for your well-deserved public shaming for it.

 

[Shadowy Man]

Regardless of who the working class chooses to vote for, don't you think you're painting working class people with a pretty broad brush? Sure, some just want to clock in and clock out every day and drink away their paycheck. However, many are highly motivated, small business owners looking to maintain and grow a business in the trades (painters, plumber, electrician, etc). I know and work with quite a few individuals like this.

and which specific Trump policies do these highly motivated small business owners believe will be best for them growing their businesses?

 

[Bomb#20]

Are you... keeping a collection of my stinging witticisms?

No, my own. No doubt you've insulted other posters even more egregiously over the same time period, but since I didn't respond to those they didn't show up when I scanned for "Politesse".

 

[ZiprHead]

The left’s best defense against Trump? Ditching limousine liberalism | Dustin Guastella

An effective fight against the president-elect requires a struggle that takes the frustrations of working-class voters seriously

www.theguardian.com

Act dumb and talk simple.

Your comment makes it pretty easy to see why the working class are turning away from the Democrat party.

Yes, the working class wants dumb and simple. That is quite clear. They want to be directed and told what to do, just like at their jobs. Little thought needed. Then after work kick back at the bar and toss back a few PBRs and complain about how the big bad guvmint is out to get them because the high taxes on their employers keeps them from getting bigger wages.

Sorry. I don't kowtow to the ignorant.

Regardless of who the working class chooses to vote for, don't you think you're painting working class people with a pretty broad brush? Sure, some just want to clock in and clock out every day and drink away their paycheck. However, many are highly motivated, small business owners looking to maintain and grow a business in the trades (painters, plumber, electrician, etc). I know and work with quite a few individuals like this.

If they voted for Trump they're morons.

Who is worse? Me for using crude language for ignorant people who voted for Trump? Or Trump et al using simple language to get the ignorati vote then fleecing them like sheep?

 

[ZiprHead]

Regardless of who the working class chooses to vote for, don't you think you're painting working class people with a pretty broad brush? Sure, some just want to clock in and clock out every day and drink away their paycheck. However, many are highly motivated, small business owners looking to maintain and grow a business in the trades (painters, plumber, electrician, etc). I know and work with quite a few individuals like this.

and which specific Trump policies do these highly motivated small business owners believe will be best for them growing their businesses?

Why, tax cuts for billionaires, of course.

 

[Shadowy Man]

Regardless of who the working class chooses to vote for, don't you think you're painting working class people with a pretty broad brush? Sure, some just want to clock in and clock out every day and drink away their paycheck. However, many are highly motivated, small business owners looking to maintain and grow a business in the trades (painters, plumber, electrician, etc). I know and work with quite a few individuals like this.

and which specific Trump policies do these highly motivated small business owners believe will be best for them growing their businesses?

Why, tax cuts for billionaires, of course.

I want to hear from thebeave since he knows and works with quite a few individuals like this.

 

[Elixir]

What Beave says is true.
I was a highly - well, I was a business owner who worked hard and benefited from lowered corporate tax rates and some other stuff I didn’t understand. But I’d give back every dime if it would rid us of Trump.

 

[Bomb#20]

The left’s best defense against Trump? Ditching limousine liberalism | Dustin Guastella

An effective fight against the president-elect requires a struggle that takes the frustrations of working-class voters seriously

www.theguardian.com

Act dumb and talk simple.

Your comment makes it pretty easy to see why the working class are turning away from the Democrat party.

Yes, the working class wants dumb and simple. That is quite clear. They want to be directed and told what to do, just like at their jobs. Little thought needed. Then after work kick back at the bar and toss back a few PBRs and complain about how the big bad guvmint is out to get them because the high taxes on their employers keeps them from getting bigger wages.

Sorry. I don't kowtow to the ignorant.

Regardless of who the working class chooses to vote for, don't you think you're painting working class people with a pretty broad brush? Sure, some just want to clock in and clock out every day and drink away their paycheck. However, many are highly motivated, small business owners looking to maintain and grow a business in the trades (painters, plumber, electrician, etc). I know and work with quite a few individuals like this.

If they voted for Trump they're morons.

Who is worse? Me for using crude language for ignorant people who voted for Trump? Or Trump et al using simple language to get the ignorati vote then fleecing them like sheep?

"Well done! So when Melkur has taken control of the Source, you'll have the consolation of knowing your personal honour is intact." - The Keeper of Traken

 

[Swammerdami]

Robert Reich is one of my favorites (especially since he was once gracious enough to engage with me in a brief e-mail chat). Think of Professor Reich as a more intelligent version of Bernie Sanders. He has his own website where he posts prolifically, articles and videos of chats. He's almost TOO prolific; I mention a good article in the next paragraph which isn't linked to on his home page: It's a few weeks old.

Rising income inequality is one of his usual themes. He recently wrote "The disturbing reality behind America's rigged economy " // "What really happened to the American Dream?" which laments that the U.S.A. is now owned and operated by billionaires. But there's much more to read from him!