Dem Post Mortem

[Politesse]

You want to blame the pragmatic acceptance of the general American public with enabling fascism. No... the people in Florida that voted for Nader are responsible.

Wow, you are incredibly bad at math!

W won Florida by < 1000 votes. People who voted for Nader in Florida >>> 1000 votes.

No, Jimmy. W won Florida with 2,912,790 votes. Not a thousand.

It's funny, you "moderates" accuse "progressives" of every evil under the sun, just for our supposed disloyalty to Party we never promised loyalty to, and which promises us nothing at all. But you'll take any opportunity to excuse Republicans for being Republicans, finger-wag us for so much as daring to criticize them.... for intentionally throwing away our democracy. Never mind that we are among the most consistent of Democratic voting blocs and usually do hold our nose and vote for the Party approved candidate. Never mind that when we are doing a protest, we usually vote for a third party, as opposed to "moderates", who when discontent directly cast votes for the enemy.

But no, it's not the conservatives fault. Never the conservatives' fault. Even the ones who are registered Democrats. Yes two million people voted for George W. Bush, but it's not their fault. How could it be their fault? A few thousand environmentalists made them do it. Those poor, oppressed conservatives, forced to betray their country!

?? Bush beat Gore by 537 votes in Florida. In that election, Nader received 86,421 votes. According to exit polls, 47 percent of Nader voters would have voted for Gore, 21 percent for bush, the rest would have stayed home.

I see you are also bad at math.

Yes. 86,000 people voted for Nader. Nearly 3 million voted for Bush.

But oh, it's not their fault. Oh, those poor oppressed Republicans. They never do anything wrong, poor babies, they just wanted to commit mass murder. Well to have their grandkids commit mass murder for them. Is that so wrong?

Oh, I get it now! We shouldn’t be allowing people on the right to vote! Maybe would be better to put them in reeducation camps? (How would you define fascism?)

What the fuck are you talking about? I'm not surprised that concentration camps are sitting around in your subconscious in the "most obvious way to solve problems" folder, but I do not appreciate your projecting those feelings onto me. I have never advocated anything of the sort, and never would. Forced internment is neither ethical nor effective, and I oppose it with my whole heart.

 

[TomC]

No, Jimmy. W won Florida with 2,912,790 votes. Not a thousand.

Bad reading comprehension on your part.
Bushes margin was a small fraction of the amount of votes for Nader. That's what "by less a thousand".
Tom

 

[Politesse]

No, Jimmy. W won Florida with 2,912,790 votes. Not a thousand.

Bad reading comprehension on your part.
Bushes margin was a small fraction of the amount of votes for Nader. That's what "by less a thousand".
Tom

I know what he was arguing, I just thought it was stupid as hell, and still do. Just because Nader voters gave Bush a very slight advantage, does not mean Bush voters had nothing to do with his winning.

"Attack your own side first, worry about the enemy later" is a stupid, stupid strategy that always ends the same way. Historians know.

 

[ZiprHead]

Why America Chose Trump: Inflation, Immigration, and the Democratic Brand - Blueprint

Harris couldn’t outrun her past or her party— it was a vice grip that proved impossible to escape.

blueprint-research.com

KEY FINDINGS:​

1. The top reasons voters gave for not supporting Harris were that inflation was too high (+24), too many immigrants crossed the border (+23), and that Harris was too focused on cultural issues rather than helping the middle class (+17).
2. Other high-testing reasons were that the debt rose too much under the Biden-Harris Administration (+13), and that Harris would be too similar to Joe Biden (+12).
3. These concerns were similar across all demographic groups, including among Black and Latino voters, who both selected inflation as their top problem with Harris. For swing voters who eventually chose Trump, cultural issues ranked slightly higher than inflation (+28 and +23, respectively).
4. The lowest-ranked concerns were that Harris wasn’t similar enough to Biden (-24), was too conservative (-23), and was too pro-Israel (-22).

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You want to blame the pragmatic acceptance of the general American public with enabling fascism. No... the people in Florida that voted for Nader are responsible.

Wow, you are incredibly bad at math!

W won Florida by < 1000 votes. People who voted for Nader in Florida >>> 1000 votes.

No, Jimmy. W won Florida with 2,912,790 votes. Not a thousand.

It's funny, you "moderates" accuse "progressives" of every evil under the sun, just for our supposed disloyalty to Party we never promised loyalty to, and which promises us nothing at all. But you'll take any opportunity to excuse Republicans for being Republicans, finger-wag us for so much as daring to criticize them.... for intentionally throwing away our democracy. Never mind that we are among the most consistent of Democratic voting blocs and usually do hold our nose and vote for the Party approved candidate. Never mind that when we are doing a protest, we usually vote for a third party, as opposed to "moderates", who when discontent directly cast votes for the enemy.

But no, it's not the conservatives fault. Never the conservatives' fault. Even the ones who are registered Democrats. Yes two million people voted for George W. Bush, but it's not their fault. How could it be their fault? A few thousand environmentalists made them do it. Those poor, oppressed conservatives, forced to betray their country!

?? Bush beat Gore by 537 votes in Florida. In that election, Nader received 86,421 votes. According to exit polls, 47 percent of Nader voters would have voted for Gore, 21 percent for bush, the rest would have stayed home.

I see you are also bad at math.

Yes. 86,000 people voted for Nader. Nearly 3 million voted for Bush.

But oh, it's not their fault. Oh, those poor oppressed Republicans. They never do anything wrong, poor babies, they just wanted to commit mass murder. Well to have their grandkids commit mass murder for them. Is that so wrong?

Oh, I get it now! We shouldn’t be allowing people on the right to vote! Maybe would be better to put them in reeducation camps? (How would you define fascism?)

Honestly, anyone that'd vote for Trump three times...

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You are upset that I'm not blaming the people that don't want progressive ideals in Governance instead of the people that want progressive ideals in Governance but voted for someone that helped prevent any chance of progressive ideals continuing to advance?

Oh, a progressive who thinks Republicans did nothing wrong. We're into whole new fucking frontiers, here!

No kidding.. I mean, in the sense of you are way out in left field.

I can't do anything about people that want A and vote for A.
It is the people that want B and are voting in a manner to help A get elected.

 

[Politesse]

You are upset that I'm not blaming the people that don't want progressive ideals in Governance instead of the people that want progressive ideals in Governance but voted for someone that helped prevent any chance of progressive ideals continuing to advance?

Oh, a progressive who thinks Republicans did nothing wrong. We're into whole new fucking frontiers, here!

No kidding.. I mean, in the sense of you are way out in left field.

I can't do anything about people that want A and vote for A.
It is the people that want B and are voting in a manner to help A get elected.

And your idea of "doing something" about them is... what, exactly? Nursing a poorly aimed grudge about a quarter-century old election?

 

[Politesse]

Why America Chose Trump: Inflation, Immigration, and the Democratic Brand - Blueprint

Harris couldn’t outrun her past or her party— it was a vice grip that proved impossible to escape.

blueprint-research.com

KEY FINDINGS:​

1. The top reasons voters gave for not supporting Harris were that inflation was too high (+24), too many immigrants crossed the border (+23), and that Harris was too focused on cultural issues rather than helping the middle class (+17).
2. Other high-testing reasons were that the debt rose too much under the Biden-Harris Administration (+13), and that Harris would be too similar to Joe Biden (+12).
3. These concerns were similar across all demographic groups, including among Black and Latino voters, who both selected inflation as their top problem with Harris. For swing voters who eventually chose Trump, cultural issues ranked slightly higher than inflation (+28 and +23, respectively).
4. The lowest-ranked concerns were that Harris wasn’t similar enough to Biden (-24), was too conservative (-23), and was too pro-Israel (-22).

Those results are fascinating! I'm going to have to spend some time considering them. Nice to have some solid data in this thread, well done sniffing it out, Zip!

 

[Derec]

Fascism is, by in large, people trading leftward thoughts for "keeping the trains running on time", on procedure and "decorum" and playing nice and capitulation in fucking advance.

Let me get you straight. You think that anything that does not involve "leftward thoughts" is fascism?

 

[Harry Bosch]

You are upset that I'm not blaming the people that don't want progressive ideals in Governance instead of the people that want progressive ideals in Governance but voted for someone that helped prevent any chance of progressive ideals continuing to advance?

Oh, a progressive who thinks Republicans did nothing wrong. We're into whole new fucking frontiers, here!

No kidding.. I mean, in the sense of you are way out in left field.

I can't do anything about people that want A and vote for A.
It is the people that want B and are voting in a manner to help A get elected.

And your idea of "doing something" about them is... what, exactly? Nursing a poorly aimed grudge about a quarter-century old election?

The left would have a check on Trump today from the Supreme Court if not for that election.

 

[Derec]

Are you insane?

No. Are you?

After the current Republican budget came out with huge record breaking deficits

Yes, the budget bill is a hot mess. What does that have to do with "Dem post mortem"?

and your criticizing AOC debt spending I can no longer take you seriously.

I am actually focusing on the topic of the thread, which is Democrats.
In particular, I was referring to the ideas from post #1,774, which posited that expensive spending programs like the Green New Deal or free college, were popular in some polls, and post #1,882 which also referred to a poll where AOC was found to be third most popular Democrat (albeit even then with only a +2 net favorability).
The idea you are pushing is that Democrats did not go too far left enough already, and should move to the left even more. In particular, AOC herself pushed the idea that deficits do not matter in order to justify the GND spending she wants.
Ocasio-Cortez boosts progressive theory that deficits aren’t so scary

You are most obviously highly partisan. You can try to deny it but your silence about the Republicans speaks volumes.

This is a thread about Democrats. Stay on topic, please.

And since I voted for Trump exactly zero times, but voted for Obama twice and also for Biden and Harris, I reject your accusation that I am "highly partisan" toward Republicans.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You are upset that I'm not blaming the people that don't want progressive ideals in Governance instead of the people that want progressive ideals in Governance but voted for someone that helped prevent any chance of progressive ideals continuing to advance?

Oh, a progressive who thinks Republicans did nothing wrong. We're into whole new fucking frontiers, here!

No kidding.. I mean, in the sense of you are way out in left field.

I can't do anything about people that want A and vote for A.
It is the people that want B and are voting in a manner to help A get elected.

And your idea of "doing something" about them is... what, exactly? Nursing a poorly aimed grudge about a quarter-century old election?

I'm just pointing out that when the these people think they have a great idea, historically... it wasn't. It didn't result in the party moving to the left. It didn't result in the nation moving to the left. It achieved nothing positive and helped push the country the wrong way. W and the Neocons hurt the US is many more ways than merely the SCOTUS bench. So while past losses aren't a guarantee to future losses, it is worth considering and reminding people.

I'm sorry pragmatism is a four letter word to some. But I've found that it is better to recognize what is and work to what should be... instead of pretending that what should be is what is.

 

[Derec]

To add to the last post, these findings back up my contention that Dems need to become more moderate again, rather than going even further to the left.

The top reasons voters gave for not supporting Harris were that inflation was too high (+24), too many immigrants crossed the border (+23), and that Harris was too focused on cultural issues rather than helping the middle class (+17).

Inflation was exacerbated by Biden administration's spending, particularly keeping the Pandemic era largess, such as expanded unemployment and expanded child tax credit, going on well beyond the point when the economy reopened.
Immigration is also an issue where Dems have moved well to the left, especially AOC who infamously wants to abolish ICE.
"Cultural issues" are mostly things like trans issues, where Dems have been too obsequious to the activist class, and race, esp. as the country was coming down from the bad trip that was the collective insanity on racial issues in the aftermath of the George Floyd riots.

[*]The lowest-ranked concerns were that Harris wasn’t similar enough to Biden (-24), was too conservative (-23), and was too pro-Israel (-22).

Yes, Gaza was not a major issue overall. It may have been important in some pockets, but even in the Islamic Republic of Hamtramckabad, there was more than Gaza that pushed voters away from the Dems.
A Muslim Mayor Endorses Trump, and a City of Immigrants Finds Itself Undone

 

[Derec]

W won Florida by < 1000 votes. People who voted for Nader in Florida >>> 1000 votes.

No, Jimmy. W won Florida with 2,912,790 votes. Not a thousand.

"By", not "with". You say that Jimmy is bad at math, but do not even understand the concept of a Δ?

It's funny, you "moderates" accuse "progressives" of every evil under the sun, just for our supposed disloyalty to a Party we never promised loyalty to, and which promises us nothing at all.

A presidential election is a binary choice. Ralph Nader was never getting elected president, the choice was between Gore and Bush.
In a system like France, where there is a top-two runoff when no candidate gets a majority, it's fine to vote your conscience (i.e. vote for hopeless candidates to send a message). But in the US system, vote is not just state-by-state, but also only requires plurality, rather than majority, which means that votes for 3rd party candidates are effectively wasted, at least in swing states.
As to Gore/Dem "promises us nothing at all", Gore was actually a pretty progressive candidate, esp. on climate. The "not a dime's worth of difference" was a stupid quip.

But you'll take any opportunity to excuse Republicans for being Republicans, finger-wag us for so much as daring to criticize them.... for intentionally throwing away our democracy.

Florida Republicans who voted for W got the candidate who was better aligned with their views and values than the alternative.
Florida voters who voted for Nader got the candidate who was far less aligned with their views and values than the alternative.
Again, it was a binary choice: Bush or Gore.

Never mind that we are among the most consistent of Democratic voting blocs and usually do hold our nose and vote for the Party approved candidate. Never mind that when we are doing a protest, we usually vote for a third party, as opposed to "moderates", who when discontent directly cast votes for the enemy. As thousands did in Florida.

Moderate independents are usually between the two major party candidates. They may be more aligned with the one over the other on various issues, but there is a balance. You are to the left of Gore though. That means that while you may not have been super excited about Gore, he was still far closer to you than Bush. And yet, by stubbornly voting for Nader, you helped Bush get elected. It's an absolute strategic fail.

I do not understand why this is so difficult for some people to grasp.

But no, it's not the conservatives' fault. Never the conservatives' fault.

They helped elect whom they wanted - the conservative president. You helped elect somebody who is diametrically opposed to your views - the conservative president. Do you not understand the difference? It's not rocket surgery.

Even the ones who are registered Democrats. Yes two million people voted for George W. Bush, but it's not their fault. How could it be their fault? A few thousand environmentalists made them do it. Those poor, oppressed conservatives, forced to betray their country!

The "few thousand environmentalists" helped Bush get elected even though Al "Inconvenient Truth" Gore was far more aligned with their views, especially on the environment. It is certainly their fault. It's also the fault of Palm Beach County mouth breathers who could not figure out the ballot.

 

[Derec]

Oh, a progressive who thinks Republicans did nothing wrong. We're into whole new fucking frontiers, here!

They did nothing wrong from their perspective. They voted for their guy, and helped get him elected. Textbook outcome of voting, really.
Naderites did something wrong from their perspective. They voted for a hopeless candidate, and helped the guy who is diametrically opposed to their views get elected.
Can you walk me through which part of this is still not clear?

 

[Politesse]

Oh, a progressive who thinks Republicans did nothing wrong. We're into whole new fucking frontiers, here!

They did nothing wrong from their perspective. They voted for their guy, and helped get him elected. Textbook outcome of voting, really.
Naderites did something wrong from their perspective. They voted for a hopeless candidate, and helped the guy who is diametrically opposed to their views get elected.
Can you walk me through which part of this is still not clear?

It's actually much better to make a honest mistake than commit an intentional crime. Also, that has nothing do with who "really" got someone elected. They all "really" helped Bush get elected, votes are not weighted by moral purity.

 

[Politesse]

They helped elect whom they wanted - the conservative president. You helped elect somebody who is diametrically opposed to your views - the conservative president.

I'm not Floridian, and did not vote for Ralph Nader. So no, I did no such thing. Nor is my vote for the presidency meaningful to anyone but me, as California's electoral votes are haven't been in serious contention since 1984.

 

[Elixir]

Why America Chose Trump: Inflation, Immigration, and the Democratic Brand - Blueprint

Harris couldn’t outrun her past or her party— it was a vice grip that proved impossible to escape.

blueprint-research.com

KEY FINDINGS:​

1. The top reasons voters gave for not supporting Harris were that inflation was too high (+24), too many immigrants crossed the border (+23), and that Harris was too focused on cultural issues rather than helping the middle class (+17).
2. Other high-testing reasons were that the debt rose too much under the Biden-Harris Administration (+13), and that Harris would be too similar to Joe Biden (+12).
3. These concerns were similar across all demographic groups, including among Black and Latino voters, who both selected inflation as their top problem with Harris. For swing voters who eventually chose Trump, cultural issues ranked slightly higher than inflation (+28 and +23, respectively).
4. The lowest-ranked concerns were that Harris wasn’t similar enough to Biden (-24), was too conservative (-23), and was too pro-Israel (-22).

In other words, Trump won because Americans believed lies.
What a revelation.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Out with the good vibes and in with the "get mean".

Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz is urging his fellow Democrats to show they will fight for the working class. "We didn't just lose the working class. We lost the working class to a billionaire who gives tax cuts to other billionaires," Walz said. The governor says his party needs to be meaner. "I'm getting called out on this because I called Donald Trump a wannabe dictator. It's because he is. It's because he is. 'Oh, the governor's being mean and the governor's speaking out on that.' Maybe it's time for us to be a little meaner. Maybe it's time for us to be a little more fierce," he said.

News

Walz is a dullard.

Don't like the truth, do you?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Reps have to look at the whole picture. Not "wouldn't it be nice to have this shiny new thing" but look at advantages and disadvantages of policies, including how much they would cost. That's why AOC et al were so busy promoting MMT (either "Modern Monetary Theory" or "Magic Money Tree") that posited that since US debt is denominated in US dollars, the federal government can just spend the $60-100T of how much AOC's Green New Deal would cost by making the money printer go brrrr.
Or take "free college". There is afaik not a country in existence that combines unregulated access to tertiary education with paying for all of it. "Free college" people like to point to Germany, but don't want to change our tertiary education system to be more like the German model.

Except the reps care far more about appearances than reality.

Personally, do I want free tertiary education? No, I want affordable tertiary education. We used to have affordable tertiary education, it was good for the country. But every budget cycle the politicians nibbled away a bit of it.

I am just floored by the fact that some of the Democrats in here really don't want those policies. The Overton window shifts because people let themselves be pushed, because those people on the left let themselves be pushed.

Some of the Democrats here are realistic about what is achievable. Not just electorally, but also as far as implementing it. It's not just flipping the switch, and lo, there is free universal healthcare and free college.

The thing with universal healthcare is that it's mostly a matter of redirecting existing money, not spending more. I do not believe it would work due to politicians cutting corners, but the concept is sound.