Democrats 2020

[PyramidHead]

I'm thinking about the number of Bernie supporters who refused to vote for Hillary, about 25%

You're thinking of Hillary supporters who refused to vote for Obama. The number of Sanders voters who flipped to Trump is closer to 10%, not abnormal for crossover voting in any presidential election

What percentages Trump win PA, WI, MI by again?

What's the price of tea in China? I was correcting an erroneous figure, quit your sniping unless you have reason to believe I'm wrong about it.

ETA: And at best, you're only arguing that Sanders supporters were needed to beat Trump, therefore we should have nominated Sanders. Welcome to the revolution

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

What percentages Trump win PA, WI, MI by again?

What's the price of tea in China?

Roughly 278 electoral votes.

I was correcting an erroneous figure, quit your sniping unless you have reason to believe I'm wrong about it.

So you are upset that someone overspoke about the number of Sanders supporters that voted for Trump... even though with the expected numbers it is likely that Sanders supporters helped put Trump into the White House via directly voting for Trump.

ETA: And at best, you're only arguing that Sanders supporters were needed to beat Trump, therefore we should have nominated Sanders.

The math not strong with you is.

 

[PyramidHead]

Roughly 278 electoral votes.

I was correcting an erroneous figure, quit your sniping unless you have reason to believe I'm wrong about it.

So you are upset that someone overspoke about the number of Sanders supporters that voted for Trump... even though with the expected numbers it is likely that Sanders supporters helped put Trump into the White House via directly voting for Trump.

I guess we shouldn't have nominated a candidate who didn't appeal to Sanders supporters. Funny how the larger % of Clinton supporters who went for McCain didn't make much of a difference in 2008, which couldn't have had anything to do with a progressive and ideals-driven candidate with grassroots support being the nominee

 

[PyramidHead]

I wonder which candidate polls ahead of Trump in all 3 the states you mentioned

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Roughly 278 electoral votes.

I was correcting an erroneous figure, quit your sniping unless you have reason to believe I'm wrong about it.

So you are upset that someone overspoke about the number of Sanders supporters that voted for Trump... even though with the expected numbers it is likely that Sanders supporters helped put Trump into the White House via directly voting for Trump.

I guess we shouldn't have nominated a candidate who didn't appeal to Sanders supporters.

You mean the person who won the most states in the primaries? The person who added a number of Sanders' planks to the party platform? That person?

Funny how the larger % of Clinton supporters who went for McCain didn't make much of a difference in 2008, which couldn't have had anything to do with a progressive and ideals-driven candidate with grassroots support being the nominee

I think any Sanders primary supporter that voted for Trump was a fucking idiot (or somehow a conservative).There is no justification for such a vote.

 

[Rhea]

I'm thinking about the number of Bernie supporters who refused to vote for Hillary, about 25%

You're thinking of Hillary supporters who refused to vote for Obama. The number of Sanders voters who flipped to Trump is closer to 10%, not abnormal for crossover voting in any presidential election

1. I don't think your numbers stand up. The polls were taken in MARCH, before McCain chose Palin and before Obama actually got the nomination.
2. Note that your article also says 19% of Obama supports would bolt to McCain, too. (They would also have been stupid to choose this ridiculous self-hating path.)
3. Any of them who actually did go to McCain were foolish and voting against their own opinion, IMHO, but MCain was trying to sell himself as a moderate/Maverick based on old tapes of when he was a moderate/maverick. He stopped being that, but it had been fairly recent, and his stoppage was quiet.
4. If it were still 25% by election day, Obama would not have won.
5. 10% of Bernie Bros ACTUALLY voting for Trump, on the other hand, was indeed enough to give the election to a force so far from Sanders that it defies logic that these people can still claim it was a natural choice.
6. Everything Sanders stood for has been destroyed by the Deranged Orange Neck Vulva. And BernieBros still claim that they were the ones who made the ethical choice ("she never visited our state! !! ). And this intended destruction of everything Sanders stood for was known long before they cast their vote in vivid red-hatted orange color. They voted for a known destruction.

You can't compare March numbers to post-November numbers, they are not comparable messages.

 

[Rhea]

Roughly 278 electoral votes.

I was correcting an erroneous figure, quit your sniping unless you have reason to believe I'm wrong about it.

So you are upset that someone overspoke about the number of Sanders supporters that voted for Trump... even though with the expected numbers it is likely that Sanders supporters helped put Trump into the White House via directly voting for Trump.

I guess we shouldn't have nominated a candidate who didn't appeal to Sanders supporters. Funny how the larger % of Clinton supporters who went for McCain didn't make much of a difference in 2008, which couldn't have had anything to do with a progressive and ideals-driven candidate with grassroots support being the nominee

They did not "go for McCain."
They said, IN MARCH, in the heat of the primary that they would. (they were stupid to say so, IMHO, but you have no support that they actually did so)
Did they?
No, Obama would not have won if they did.

 

[PyramidHead]

I guess we shouldn't have nominated a candidate who didn't appeal to Sanders supporters.

You mean the person who won the most states in the primaries? The person who added a number of Sanders' planks to the party platform? That person?

Funny how the larger % of Clinton supporters who went for McCain didn't make much of a difference in 2008, which couldn't have had anything to do with a progressive and ideals-driven candidate with grassroots support being the nominee

I think any Sanders primary supporter that voted for Trump was a fucking idiot (or somehow a conservative).There is no justification for such a vote.

I'm sure there's nothing constructive that can be done in the future to prevent it from happening again, though. Let's just call those voters idiots and nominate another candidate who can't win without their votes. I, too, remember the great presidencies of Gore and Kerry

 

[PyramidHead]

I guess we shouldn't have nominated a candidate who didn't appeal to Sanders supporters. Funny how the larger % of Clinton supporters who went for McCain didn't make much of a difference in 2008, which couldn't have had anything to do with a progressive and ideals-driven candidate with grassroots support being the nominee

They did not "go for McCain."
They said, IN MARCH, in the heat of the primary that they would. (they were stupid to say so, IMHO, but you have no support that they actually did so)
Did they?
No, Obama would not have won if they did.

1. Exit polling has the number of Clinton supporters who went for McCain at 15%, which is still larger than 12%.
2. The 2016 election was close enough that any voting population could have swung the election if it had voted differently. The lesson to be learned is that we should nominate a candidate whose victory over Trump does not depend on such small margins that it can be compromised by an unremarkable % of crossover votes.

 

[Rhea]

I guess we shouldn't have nominated a candidate who didn't appeal to Sanders supporters. Funny how the larger % of Clinton supporters who went for McCain didn't make much of a difference in 2008, which couldn't have had anything to do with a progressive and ideals-driven candidate with grassroots support being the nominee

They did not "go for McCain."
They said, IN MARCH, in the heat of the primary that they would. (they were stupid to say so, IMHO, but you have no support that they actually did so)
Did they?
No, Obama would not have won if they did.

1. Exit polling has the number of Clinton supporters who went for McCain at 15%, which is still larger than 12%.
2. The 2016 election was close enough that any voting population could have swung the election if it had voted differently. The lesson to be learned is that we should nominate a candidate whose victory over Trump does not depend on such small margins that it can be compromised by an unremarkable % of crossover votes.

And you are blithely saying that a BernieBros Candidate fits that bill? Why?


What I'd like to see is the non-fascist voters be not fucking stupid with their votes and remember this is a best move forward event, not a perfection or bust event.
But people are stupid and they end up with Trump and complain that someone else made them do it.
Fuck them. If they didn't vote to STOP TRUMP, then they voted to get this shit storm that we got. It's not someone else fault that the candidate wasn't perfect enough for their little snowflake visions. And no amount of better compromise for the big tent that is the Democrats will make them see that truth. They think they should get their perfect pick and ]everyone else should compromise, but they are completely unwilling to be the ones to compromise. They got a fucking fascist. They made that happen.

 

[PyramidHead]

1. Exit polling has the number of Clinton supporters who went for McCain at 15%, which is still larger than 12%.
2. The 2016 election was close enough that any voting population could have swung the election if it had voted differently. The lesson to be learned is that we should nominate a candidate whose victory over Trump does not depend on such small margins that it can be compromised by an unremarkable % of crossover votes.

And you are blithely saying that a BernieBros Candidate fits that bill? Why?

Bernie leads all the other candidates in donations from women:


Which is not surprising since they comprise the largest percentage of his supporters (data is from August):


The "Bernie Bro" thing is so thoroughly debunked by now that it can only be found on the lips of people wanting to disingenuously poison the well.

What I'd like to see is the non-fascist voters be not fucking stupid with their votes and remember this is a best move forward event, not a perfection or bust event.
But people are stupid and they end up with Trump and complain that someone else made them do it.
Fuck them. If they didn't vote to STOP TRUMP, then they voted to get this shit storm that we got. It's not someone else fault that the candidate wasn't perfect enough for their little snowflake visions. And no amount of better compromise for the big tent that is the Democrats will make them see that truth.

Sounds like you have a productive strategy. I think if you stamp your feet continuously between now and November, the thermal energy it generates might be enough to warm a small glass of water. That's clearly a superior approach to supporting the candidate whose supporters, combined with all the smart people like you who vote blue no matter who, will easily beat Trump.

 

[PyramidHead]

Speaking of Clinton:

Hillary Clinton: Warren's 'Medicare for All' plan would never get enacted

I'm reminded of how Warren put her credibility on the line and refused to endorse Sanders in 2016, no doubt expecting a place in a Clinton administration. Between this and her comments about Gabbard, it's amazing how "lack of party unity" is never a problem when a private citizen who has never won a presidential election uses her class position to create divisions within the primary field.

 

[Rhea]

The "Bernie Bro" thing is so thoroughly debunked by now that it can only be found on the lips of people wanting to disingenuously poison the well.

What I'd like to see is the non-fascist voters be not fucking stupid with their votes and remember this is a best move forward event, not a perfection or bust event.
But people are stupid and they end up with Trump and complain that someone else made them do it.
Fuck them. If they didn't vote to STOP TRUMP, then they voted to get this shit storm that we got. It's not someone else fault that the candidate wasn't perfect enough for their little snowflake visions. And no amount of better compromise for the big tent that is the Democrats will make them see that truth.

Sounds like you have a productive strategy. I think if you stamp your feet continuously between now and November, the thermal energy it generates might be enough to warm a small glass of water. That's clearly a superior approach to supporting the candidate whose supporters, combined with all the smart people like you who vote blue no matter who, will easily beat Trump.

Cute, but Bernie didn't get it done last time. He did not get more votes than Clinton in the Primaries. To claim that if only he had! then he would have won!!11!! just doesn't have enough realistic data to support it to justify a claim that he's the "best" candidate now, let alone the "only one who can do it! (tm)"

No, I don't have a productive strategy. I don't know how to deal with that bunch. I watch these Bernie supporters (and I have no idea how a Bernie Bro is "debunked," or whatever, I use the term to describe the our-guy-or-the-devil bunch) and I am just so fucking tired of their whining and complaining about how they wouldn't vote blue no matter who, but since OTHER people would have, we should have all pandered to them knowing they were petulant fucking snowflakes who were going to scream through the movie if we didn't give them candy and we should have just given them the candy because that's a good way to vote in the primaries.

Sick of their whining and complaining and asking everyone to do that again.

Oh, the evil DNC won't annoint their guy! They won't make everyone buy us candy! Waaaaanh!
These people don't want a primary, they don't want us to talk about candidates' platforms, they just want us all to know, that THEY WANT CANDY AND THEY ARE READY TO SCREAM AGAIN AND DO WE GET IT THIS TIME?


They are not rational and they are not reliable. I know some of them in real life and they just keep whining away.

 

[PyramidHead]

The "Bernie Bro" thing is so thoroughly debunked by now that it can only be found on the lips of people wanting to disingenuously poison the well.

What I'd like to see is the non-fascist voters be not fucking stupid with their votes and remember this is a best move forward event, not a perfection or bust event.
But people are stupid and they end up with Trump and complain that someone else made them do it.
Fuck them. If they didn't vote to STOP TRUMP, then they voted to get this shit storm that we got. It's not someone else fault that the candidate wasn't perfect enough for their little snowflake visions. And no amount of better compromise for the big tent that is the Democrats will make them see that truth.

Sounds like you have a productive strategy. I think if you stamp your feet continuously between now and November, the thermal energy it generates might be enough to warm a small glass of water. That's clearly a superior approach to supporting the candidate whose supporters, combined with all the smart people like you who vote blue no matter who, will easily beat Trump.

Cute, but Bernie didn't get it done last time. He did not get more votes than Clinton in the Primaries. To claim that if only he had! then he would have won!!11!! just doesn't have enough realistic data to support it to justify a claim that he's the "best" candidate now, let alone the "only one who can do it! (tm)"

No, I don't have a productive strategy. I don't know how to deal with that bunch. I watch these Bernie supporters (and I have no idea how a Bernie Bro is "debunked," or whatever, I use the term to describe the our-guy-or-the-devil bunch) and I am just so fucking tired of their whining and complaining about how they wouldn't vote blue no matter who, but since OTHER people would have, we should have all pandered to them knowing they were petulant fucking snowflakes who were going to scream through the movie if we didn't give them candy and we should have just given them the candy because that's a good way to vote in the primaries.

Sick of their whining and complaining and asking everyone to do that again.

Oh, the evil DNC won't annoint their guy! They won't make everyone buy us candy! Waaaaanh!
These people don't want a primary, they don't want us to talk about candidates' platforms, they just want us all to know, that THEY WANT CANDY AND THEY ARE READY TO SCREAM AGAIN AND DO WE GET IT THIS TIME?


They are not rational and they are not reliable. I know some of them in real life and they just keep whining away.

Do you feel better now? Sometimes a good whine can be cathartic.

 

[Rhea]

Speaking of Clinton:

Hillary Clinton: Warren's 'Medicare for All' plan would never get enacted

I'm reminded of how Warren put her credibility on the line and refused to endorse Sanders in 2016, no doubt expecting a place in a Clinton administration. Between this and her comments about Gabbard, it's amazing how "lack of party unity" is never a problem when a private citizen who has never won a presidential election uses her class position to create divisions within the primary field.

you didn't notice this part of the interview, where she says she likes the idea, she just thinks different steps to it are necessary, oh, and party unity?

Clinton, though, tried to shift the debate back to highlighting the contrast between Democrats and Republicans, pointing to the fact that the GOP is trying to repeal the Affordable Care Act, including backing a lawsuit currently in the courts to overturn the entire law.

“Yeah, we're having a debate on our side of the political ledger, but it's a debate about the right issue, how do we get to health care coverage for everybody that we can afford?” Clinton said, noting the GOP is “in court right now to strike the entire law down.”

Yes, I'm a supporter of the idea that party unity is necessary to speak the language of the people who need to vote on these issues.
Yes, I think party unity is useful and absolutely necessary in this climate.
Yes, I think Clinton would have been better off dumbing it down for those who would read her interview and think she was "creating divisions."

But a discerning reader will see that she supports Warren's idea, even though she thinks it is too big a step for the current legislature, and that we can make a step that covers people, get our foot in the door, and then she is right there with Liz.

 

[laughing dog]

Cute, but Bernie didn't get it done last time. He did not get more votes than Clinton in the Primaries. To claim that if only he had! then he would have won!!11!! just doesn't have enough realistic data to support it to justify a claim that he's the "best" candidate now, let alone the "only one who can do it! (tm)"

No, I don't have a productive strategy. I don't know how to deal with that bunch. I watch these Bernie supporters (and I have no idea how a Bernie Bro is "debunked," or whatever, I use the term to describe the our-guy-or-the-devil bunch) and I am just so fucking tired of their whining and complaining about how they wouldn't vote blue no matter who, but since OTHER people would have, we should have all pandered to them knowing they were petulant fucking snowflakes who were going to scream through the movie if we didn't give them candy and we should have just given them the candy because that's a good way to vote in the primaries.

Sick of their whining and complaining and asking everyone to do that again.

Oh, the evil DNC won't annoint their guy! They won't make everyone buy us candy! Waaaaanh!
These people don't want a primary, they don't want us to talk about candidates' platforms, they just want us all to know, that THEY WANT CANDY AND THEY ARE READY TO SCREAM AGAIN AND DO WE GET IT THIS TIME?


They are not rational and they are not reliable. I know some of them in real life and they just keep whining away.

Do you feel better now? Sometimes a good whine can be cathartic.

Apparently not for Bernie supporters.

 

[Politesse]

The "Bernie Bro" thing is so thoroughly debunked by now that it can only be found on the lips of people wanting to disingenuously poison the well.

What I'd like to see is the non-fascist voters be not fucking stupid with their votes and remember this is a best move forward event, not a perfection or bust event.
But people are stupid and they end up with Trump and complain that someone else made them do it.
Fuck them. If they didn't vote to STOP TRUMP, then they voted to get this shit storm that we got. It's not someone else fault that the candidate wasn't perfect enough for their little snowflake visions. And no amount of better compromise for the big tent that is the Democrats will make them see that truth.

Sounds like you have a productive strategy. I think if you stamp your feet continuously between now and November, the thermal energy it generates might be enough to warm a small glass of water. That's clearly a superior approach to supporting the candidate whose supporters, combined with all the smart people like you who vote blue no matter who, will easily beat Trump.

Cute, but Bernie didn't get it done last time. He did not get more votes than Clinton in the Primaries. To claim that if only he had! then he would have won!!11!! just doesn't have enough realistic data to support it to justify a claim that he's the "best" candidate now, let alone the "only one who can do it! (tm)"

No, I don't have a productive strategy. I don't know how to deal with that bunch. I watch these Bernie supporters (and I have no idea how a Bernie Bro is "debunked," or whatever, I use the term to describe the our-guy-or-the-devil bunch) and I am just so fucking tired of their whining and complaining about how they wouldn't vote blue no matter who, but since OTHER people would have, we should have all pandered to them knowing they were petulant fucking snowflakes who were going to scream through the movie if we didn't give them candy and we should have just given them the candy because that's a good way to vote in the primaries.

Sick of their whining and complaining and asking everyone to do that again.

Oh, the evil DNC won't annoint their guy! They won't make everyone buy us candy! Waaaaanh!
These people don't want a primary, they don't want us to talk about candidates' platforms, they just want us all to know, that THEY WANT CANDY AND THEY ARE READY TO SCREAM AGAIN AND DO WE GET IT THIS TIME?


They are not rational and they are not reliable. I know some of them in real life and they just keep whining away.

'course, by the same logic... Biden has tried for and lost his bid for the presidency twice now, yet on his third go people will speak of nothing but his "electibility". I'm not sure this discourse ever follows any sort of logic, really.

 

[PyramidHead]

Speaking of Clinton:

Hillary Clinton: Warren's 'Medicare for All' plan would never get enacted

I'm reminded of how Warren put her credibility on the line and refused to endorse Sanders in 2016, no doubt expecting a place in a Clinton administration. Between this and her comments about Gabbard, it's amazing how "lack of party unity" is never a problem when a private citizen who has never won a presidential election uses her class position to create divisions within the primary field.

you didn't notice this part of the interview, where she says she likes the idea, she just thinks different steps to it are necessary, oh, and party unity?

Clinton, though, tried to shift the debate back to highlighting the contrast between Democrats and Republicans, pointing to the fact that the GOP is trying to repeal the Affordable Care Act, including backing a lawsuit currently in the courts to overturn the entire law.

“Yeah, we're having a debate on our side of the political ledger, but it's a debate about the right issue, how do we get to health care coverage for everybody that we can afford?” Clinton said, noting the GOP is “in court right now to strike the entire law down.”

Yes, I'm a supporter of the idea that party unity is necessary to speak the language of the people who need to vote on these issues.
Yes, I think party unity is useful and absolutely necessary in this climate.
Yes, I think Clinton would have been better off dumbing it down for those who would read her interview and think she was "creating divisions."

But a discerning reader will see that she supports Warren's idea, even though she thinks it is too big a step for the current legislature, and that we can make a step that covers people, get our foot in the door, and then she is right there with Liz.

Where you see the issue as one of incrementalism versus reckless idealism, I recognize it as accommodating the status quo versus overturning it. Hillary's comments place her firmly on the side of the insurance companies and the for-profit health care business generally, which would love nothing more than a gradualist package of technocratic reforms that have no ultimate effect on their dominance of the industry. She has no substantive critique of Medicare for All and is just regurgitating Biden's campaign platform, which is the same as the Republican talking point (how will we afford it, it's too disruptive, etc.) and the same as the insurance lobbyists' line of attack. They all amount to the same thing: more people dying or going bankrupt because of medical expenses.

Your referring to the real, life-or-death struggles of ordinary people to buy medicine, get checkups, and see specialists as whiny babies demanding candy is emblematic of a real disdain for poor people. It speaks to an inability to see political progress as anything other than something the dumb masses appoint enlightened rich people to do behind closed doors, and we should take whatever corrupted, watered-down, easily challenged legislation the wealthy elites agree to. The only thing preventing everyone from having free, high quality medical care in this country is the lack of organization behind a political faction capable of successfully taking on the private actors and institutional barriers that stand in the way. Such a faction is materializing and growing before our very eyes, and is gaining momentum. The only people who think that at this point in history the correct move is to stall that momentum rather than to unite behind it are those with nothing at stake except their tax rate.

 

[Rhea]

Speaking of Clinton:

Hillary Clinton: Warren's 'Medicare for All' plan would never get enacted

I'm reminded of how Warren put her credibility on the line and refused to endorse Sanders in 2016, no doubt expecting a place in a Clinton administration. Between this and her comments about Gabbard, it's amazing how "lack of party unity" is never a problem when a private citizen who has never won a presidential election uses her class position to create divisions within the primary field.

I'm looking again at your posts and find them just a little bit weird. First there is, "hey, if you look at this one demographic where Bernie leads - HE'S LEADING! Se e how that makes him the best candidate?

Then there is "yeah, Party Unity is being harmed by Clinton," says the person shilling for the guy who is ruinning one campaign as an Independent and another as a Democrat.


It's all kind of disjointed and "hey, did I mention Bernie yet"ish.


Weird.

 

[Rhea]

They are not rational and they are not reliable. I know some of them in real life and they just keep whining away.

'course, by the same logic... Biden has tried for and lost his bid for the presidency twice now, yet on his third go people will speak of nothing but his "electibility". I'm not sure this discourse ever follows any sort of logic, really.

But to my point about the whiners, Biden voters do not whine about his losses and claim he's the only one who can win. There are people who claim he is most electable, but they are not people who have been complaining for years. (I don't think he's particularly electable, but if he's what I'm given, after a primary in which I'm voting for someone else, then he's better than Trump and I will vote with enthusiasm.)


And Sanders ran and lost once already. So there's that one, too.