Derail from Feminist Gamer: Catcalling on the Streets

[Loren Pechtel]

The problem is repetition and safety.
When a man ignores a woman desire to be left alone, or insults her for that, it raises red flags. It has a "I don't respect your boundaries" meaning, that means the woman is going to feel her safety diminished in presence of that man.

Except she's wearing a notice-me! outfit. Thus she's projecting crossed messages.

 

[Juma]

The problem is repetition and safety.
When a man ignores a woman desire to be left alone, or insults her for that, it raises red flags. It has a "I don't respect your boundaries" meaning, that means the woman is going to feel her safety diminished in presence of that man.

Except she's wearing a notice-me! outfit. Thus she's projecting crossed messages.

Then what is not a "notice-me" outfit?

 

[Axulus]

Except she's wearing a notice-me! outfit. Thus she's projecting crossed messages.

Then what is not a "notice-me" outfit?

 

[dx713]

The problem is repetition and safety.
When a man ignores a woman desire to be left alone, or insults her for that, it raises red flags. It has a "I don't respect your boundaries" meaning, that means the woman is going to feel her safety diminished in presence of that man.

Except she's wearing a notice-me! outfit. Thus she's projecting crossed messages.

By thinking she's wearing a "notice-me" outfit, you're projecting. She's wearing what makes her feel good. You can't know if "being noticed" is part of what makes her feel good.
We live in free societies. She should be able to walk outside in a bikini, or even naked if laws allowed for that, without it being intended as a "notice me" post.

If we all think it your way, we are constraining the way women dress according to our cultural appreciation of what is a "proper" way to dress.
That means you're mandating a woman walking a street inhabitied by fundie Christians to wear formless jumpers else they think she's calling for "notice me".
That means you're mandating a woman walking in a Muslim-inhabited streed to wear a hijab else they think she's calling for "notice me".
That means you're approving rural afghanisti mandating burqas, because in their culture, something else would mean "notice me".
Is that really where you want to go?
If not, you have to accept that what means "notice me" for a woman depends on her own culture, and that you cannot make any assumption on it as an onlooker, even if it would mean "notice me" to your mother or spouse.

 

[Arctish]

To guys who have objectified a woman they find pretty passing in the street and lack the self-control and find they must say something to her, and wonder why a compliment or comment on the weather can seem threatening or harassing to such a woman...

Guys, if she's pretty to you, she's probably pretty to a bunch of other guys who also can't hold their tongues and so far, like the video, she's already heard it from a dozen or more guys in the street by the time you see her.

 

[RavenSky]

The problem is repetition and safety.
When a man ignores a woman desire to be left alone, or insults her for that, it raises red flags. It has a "I don't respect your boundaries" meaning, that means the woman is going to feel her safety diminished in presence of that man.

Except she's wearing a notice-me! outfit. Thus she's projecting crossed messages.

So your solution to men disrespecting a woman's right to be left alone is that the woman has to wear a burqa?

 

[Axulus]

Some men may well be sincere, but their advances are still as unwelcome as the salespeople who stand in the mall trying to catch a shopper's interest: The occasional person might not mind, and may even stop and buy, but the majority of people want the salespeople to fuck off and leave them alone.

(It's not that I don't like want a good deal on a birthday party at a paintball field, it's just that I don't want to stop and talk to you about it, as evidenced by my complete lack of interest in your booth and the fact that I haven't even broken stride.)

It is predatory, although that is not necessarily a bad thing. It's quite natural for (straight) men to take notice of women they find sexy. However it's poor form to express one's desires spontaneously to women on the street without regard to how they might receive it: Odds are that most won't welcome the attention.

If you never try, failure is guaranteed, right?

That does not give one a licence to engage in anti-social behaviour.

Well, this is all good news to me. I never open my mouth to strangers for fear I might be found annoying or the conversation unwanted. It looks like I had the right idea in mind. About the only time I talk to someone is under pressure from friends or acquaintances who think I'm being too quiet, or after at least 3 drinks.

Yup, you had the right idea all along if your conversation was going to be about her looks, her body or her availability.
Nothing wrong with looking pleasant and happy about life as people pass you by.
And nothing wrong with opening your mouth about the weather, the big local event, the cute kid or puppy that you both see - when you are both paused in the same place. When you accidentally or casually make eye contact with a stranger, a small smile and a nodded, "hello" are not harassing (although I realize city people rarely make eye contact as we rural folks do, but there's a reason for that, right? It's to show that greeting are not desired.)

But if you call out to stop someone you don't know from what they are already doing, in order to get them to include you in their day, especially if it is to discuss their physical person, then it will almost universally be unwelcome, annoying and harassing.

It's a continuum, but there are some things that are pretty clearly always on the creeper side of the line with regard to people you do not know:

• Trying to stop them from their existing path/speed/direction to notice you by calling out or shouting out at them when they are just going by.
• Making your comment about their physical person.
• Feeling annoyance at them if they fail to notice you(stranger) in a sea of many strangers.

Those three are not jovial, not polite, not friendly, and, for the target not safe.
They are harassment.
If any person in that video did something other than those three things, we could argue about whether they were harassing. But they all did. She was walking purposefully without inviting socialization. They violated that clear signal, every one of them.

They weren't calling out "Good Morning," to the happy world in general, they were calling it out to her, at her, expecting her attention to it.

But I'm specifically referring to those who walk by her who say "how are you doing?" or "hope you are having a nice evening" or even "wow, you are a beauty.". Yes, her looks are what is getting their attention, but is it really harassment? Maybe annoying, sure? Annoying for every woman? Are you sure about that? It seems like they are throwing out a line to see if she will catch it. If she doesn't, no big deal (any of those guys who act offended or admonish her for not responding to them are engaging in harassment, no question, I'm only talking about those who make a brief attempt and then go along their way when she doesn't respond). How many women think this is creepy? What about the men who are trying to grab the attention of the women who happen to get a response (because some women perhaps don't view it as harassment)? I'm not trying to justify creepy behavior here. I'm just trying to determine where the line is here and whether all women are in agreement.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Some men may well be sincere, but their advances are still as unwelcome as the salespeople who stand in the mall trying to catch a shopper's interest: The occasional person might not mind, and may even stop and buy, but the majority of people want the salespeople to fuck off and leave them alone.

(It's not that I don't like want a good deal on a birthday party at a paintball field, it's just that I don't want to stop and talk to you about it, as evidenced by my complete lack of interest in your booth and the fact that I haven't even broken stride.)

It is predatory, although that is not necessarily a bad thing. It's quite natural for (straight) men to take notice of women they find sexy. However it's poor form to express one's desires spontaneously to women on the street without regard to how they might receive it: Odds are that most won't welcome the attention.

If you never try, failure is guaranteed, right?

That does not give one a licence to engage in anti-social behaviour.

Well, this is all good news to me. I never open my mouth to strangers for fear I might be found annoying or the conversation unwanted. It looks like I had the right idea in mind. About the only time I talk to someone is under pressure from friends or acquaintances who think I'm being too quiet, or after at least 3 drinks.

Yup, you had the right idea all along if your conversation was going to be about her looks, her body or her availability.
Nothing wrong with looking pleasant and happy about life as people pass you by.
And nothing wrong with opening your mouth about the weather, the big local event, the cute kid or puppy that you both see - when you are both paused in the same place. When you accidentally or casually make eye contact with a stranger, a small smile and a nodded, "hello" are not harassing (although I realize city people rarely make eye contact as we rural folks do, but there's a reason for that, right? It's to show that greeting are not desired.)

But if you call out to stop someone you don't know from what they are already doing, in order to get them to include you in their day, especially if it is to discuss their physical person, then it will almost universally be unwelcome, annoying and harassing.

It's a continuum, but there are some things that are pretty clearly always on the creeper side of the line with regard to people you do not know:

• Trying to stop them from their existing path/speed/direction to notice you by calling out or shouting out at them when they are just going by.
• Making your comment about their physical person.
• Feeling annoyance at them if they fail to notice you(stranger) in a sea of many strangers.

Those three are not jovial, not polite, not friendly, and, for the target not safe.
They are harassment.
If any person in that video did something other than those three things, we could argue about whether they were harassing. But they all did. She was walking purposefully without inviting socialization. They violated that clear signal, every one of them.

They weren't calling out "Good Morning," to the happy world in general, they were calling it out to her, at her, expecting her attention to it.

But I'm specifically referring to those who walk by her who say "how are you doing?" or "hope you are having a nice evening" or even "wow, you are a beauty.". Yes, her looks are what is getting their attention, but is it really harassment? Maybe annoying, sure? Annoying for every woman? Are you sure about that? It seems like they are throwing out a line to see if she will catch it. If she doesn't, no big deal (any of those guys who act offended or admonish her for not responding to them are engaging in harassment, no question, I'm only talking about those who make a brief attempt and then go along their way when she doesn't respond). How many women think this is creepy? What about the men who are trying to grab the attention of the women who happen to get a response (because some women perhaps don't view it as harassment)? I'm not trying to justify creepy behavior here. I'm just trying to determine where the line is here and whether all women are in agreement.

If a woman in you life told you she was being called out daily by men on her way to work, would you spend this much time trying to convince her that is wasn't really harassment, or would you listen to her?

 

[ZiprHead]

If a woman in you life told you she was being called out daily by men on her way to work, would you spend this much time trying to convince her that is wasn't really harassment, or would you listen to her?

That's what really gets me about this. Women all over the internet where this is being discussed say they don't like it yet men continue to defend it. They want to defend their right to be rude and obnoxious because they're men. Women don't like it so just stop it already.

 

[Rhea]

They weren't calling out "Good Morning," to the happy world in general, they were calling it out to her, at her, expecting her attention to it.

But I'm specifically referring to those who walk by her who say "how are you doing?" or "hope you are having a nice evening" or even "wow, you are a beauty.". Yes, her looks are what is getting their attention, but is it really harassment?

They are trying to impede her progress. Change it. Stop it. Make themselves part of her day.
Yes.

Maybe annoying, sure? Annoying for every woman? Are you sure about that?

The response by women to this video is nearly universal. Read the comments on any of the zillion postings of this video. The comments by women are saying YES WE HATE THIS nearly universally. There may be a 0.001% occurence of women saying "no big deal," as is their right. Conclusion - annoying for pretty much every woman. Women are answering this in droves with a pretty singular message. As I said, if you are genuinely curious if this is "every woman" then just go read the comments sections on 20 or 30 of the places where this is posted. Note what the women are saying.

There's your sign.

It seems like they are throwing out a line to see if she will catch it.

Can you document a single instance of this actually working? I don't think it works, pretty much ever.
As has been noted in this very thread, it's not the catcallers who turn our heads. it's the respectful interactions. The one who smiles warmly and nods good day.

If she doesn't, no big deal (any of those guys who act offended or admonish her for not responding to them are engaging in harassment, no question, I'm only talking about those who make a brief attempt and then go along their way when she doesn't respond). How many women think this is creepy?

So far on this thread? All of us, right?
In the comments sections of the myriad postings of this video? All but one or two.
Are you willing to harrass 99.999% of women in the hopes of landing the ppm?

edited to add: and yeah, it actually is a big deal. Since nearly every single woman asked hates it and feels harassed. Or is there an argument that this result isn't a big deal?

What about the men who are trying to grab the attention of the women who happen to get a response (because some women perhaps don't view it as harassment)? I'm not trying to justify creepy behavior here. I'm just trying to determine where the line is here and whether all women are in agreement.

In my opinion, and apparently in the opinion of the overwhelmingly vast majority of women posting on those blogs and threads, the line lies here:

Is she a stranger?
Are you calling out to grab her attention because she did not offer her attention on her own?

= creepy.

- - - Updated - - -

If a woman in you life told you she was being called out daily by men on her way to work, would you spend this much time trying to convince her that is wasn't really harassment, or would you listen to her?

That's what really gets me about this. Women all over the internet where this is being discussed say they don't like it yet men continue to defend it. They want to defend their right to be rude and obnoxious because they're men. Women don't like it so just stop it already.

Yes, this is so obvious and unequivocal.

 

[jladam]

So extroverted/outgoing men complimenting a good looking woman or greeting her on the street now constitutes harassment?

If they are saying "Hi, how are you?" to every single person walking down the street, then, no, it's not harassment. If they are purposely singling out only young good-looking females to greet and ignoring everyone else, then, there is clearly a huge difference between the two.

 

[ksen]

Then what is not a "notice-me" outfit?

I don't know man, I would notice that.

 

[Rhea]

The problem is repetition and safety.
When a man ignores a woman desire to be left alone, or insults her for that, it raises red flags. It has a "I don't respect your boundaries" meaning, that means the woman is going to feel her safety diminished in presence of that man.

Except she's wearing a notice-me! outfit. Thus she's projecting crossed messages.

And did you REALLY just say this? She is wearing jeans and a tee shirt. Black, no writing, no sparkles, nothing to stand out.

Did you really even think this?

Not to mention the arrogance and idiocy of thinking that when a woman dresses up, it must be for you and not only that but for any man because it is just not right for a woman to dress up for ONE special person and then walk to get to him. It's all comers any time she goes out, right? That's just sick. You're not that special, Loren.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Except she's wearing a notice-me! outfit. Thus she's projecting crossed messages.

And did you REALLY just say this? She is wearing jeans and a tee shirt. Black, no writing, no sparkles, nothing to stand out.

Did you really even think this?

It's the concept of "less is more". She's clearly just fishing for compliments while trying to look like she's not fishing for compliments. She's not fooling anyone.

 

[Rhea]

And did you REALLY just say this? She is wearing jeans and a tee shirt. Black, no writing, no sparkles, nothing to stand out.

Did you really even think this?

It's the concept of "less is more". She's clearly just fishing for compliments while trying to look like she's not fishing for compliments. She's not fooling anyone.

Women. Deceptive to the core, huh.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

It's the concept of "less is more". She's clearly just fishing for compliments while trying to look like she's not fishing for compliments. She's not fooling anyone.

Women. Deceptive to the core, huh.

That's a really misogynistic comment.

It's not women's fault that they're all so deceptive. It's because their smaller brain size doesn't allow them to engage in proper levels of moral reasoning. Blaming them for it is like blaming a chimpanzee for stealing a banana - they just don't have the congnitive tools to know any better. Try and have a little more respect in future posts.

 

[thebeave]

Except she's wearing a notice-me! outfit. Thus she's projecting crossed messages.

And did you REALLY just say this? She is wearing jeans and a tee shirt. Black, no writing, no sparkles, nothing to stand out.

Did you really even think this?

Not to mention the arrogance and idiocy of thinking that when a woman dresses up, it must be for you and not only that but for any man because it is just not right for a woman to dress up for ONE special person and then walk to get to him. It's all comers any time she goes out, right? That's just sick. You're not that special, Loren.

Its not the fact that its jeans and t-shirt, but the snug fit which emphasizes her curves. Here's a guy wearing "just" a t-shirt and jeans while walking in NYC.



I think if he wore a bulky jacket and saggy jeans that hid his physique, I don't think he would have got as much attention.

 

[repoman]

Are feminists scolds?

 

[repoman]

Being serious, humans are not meant to be around thousands of strangers a day from an evolutionary point of view. Our situation now is unprecedented and we don't all have the tools to handle it. You see a peak fertility and well assembled woman or man and part of you is gonna say "Damn!" to yourself. This is about socialization vs instinct.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

The problem is repetition and safety.
When a man ignores a woman desire to be left alone, or insults her for that, it raises red flags. It has a "I don't respect your boundaries" meaning, that means the woman is going to feel her safety diminished in presence of that man.

Except she's wearing a notice-me! outfit. Thus she's projecting crossed messages.

Even if she was, she need not be messaging YOU. Going to meet a date at a restaurant, I wear a red velvet dress because he, my date, likes it. I wear a red velvet dress because I like it. I don't want to hear from some stranger in a parking lot about how good I look. I know how good I look. I AM THE ONE WHO DRESSED ME.