DERAIL - Swedish Prostitution

[DrZoidberg]

Tens of thousands men women and children are trafficked in the US every year which makes it likely that you may have raped a slave sometime in your life. You have no way to ascertain if the prostitute that you rent is a slave, child slave or just loves to fuck men that are unable to get a woman without payment.
It is like with stolen goods, you may say that you did not know that the camera you bought from a guy on a street corner was stolen but the court will say that you should have suspected that it was.

The problem with sex trafficking is that the numbers are dubious.

1) Why would anybody have sex with a sex slave if they can go to a willing prostitute? Sex slaves you need to keep under surveillance, you need to smuggle into the country and you live in constant fear of being discovered. Why bother with all that work? Also, non-trafficked prostitutes have the same clients, and have a huge incentive for the traffickers to be taken down. We're a bit light on the evidence of this happening.

2) Prostitutes who have entered countries illegally have an incentive to say they were trafficked. If they do they are victims and not criminals. Their old boss is in jail now, so they have zero incentive not to throw him under a buss.

3) There's most likely a large grey area. Women who were offered jobs as prostitutes and when they got here the deal was changed and it's not as fun any longer. Or they're trapped practically in deals they're not happy with. They're perhaps on a contract for a certain time but now they want to break it early, but can't. Are they victims of trafficking? It's not clear at all.

4) We have no way of knowing how reliable the trafficking numbers are. There's just no way to conduct that research.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Why does any thread with Derec devolve into a conversation about prostitution?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Why does any thread with Derec devolve into a conversation about prostitution?

He also hates Mooslems. Is there a connection?

 

[KeepTalking]

Why does any thread with Derec devolve into a conversation about prostitution?

This time around it seems that it was the (possibly off topic) mention of prostitution that drew Derec to this discussion, as his first post in the thread was a reply to a post about prostitution in Sweden.

 

[Shadowy Man]

It is like with stolen goods, you may say that you did not know that the camera you bought from a guy on a street corner was stolen but the court will say that you should have suspected that it was.

This is a good argument for legalization of prostitution. According to your analogy you should have suspected the camera was stolen because you were buying it from a guy on a street corner instead of a camera shop.

 

[Frikki]

It is like with stolen goods, you may say that you did not know that the camera you bought from a guy on a street corner was stolen but the court will say that you should have suspected that it was.

This is a good argument for legalization of prostitution. According to your analogy you should have suspected the camera was stolen because you were buying it from a guy on a street corner instead of a camera shop.

True, I´m not totally against the legalisation of prostitution but I was explaining to the "crimigrant" why it makes sense to criminalise the renting of women that may be slaves and not the act of prostitution itself since a certain number of prostitutes have little choice while the johns do.

 

[Elixir]

Why does any thread with Derec devolve into a conversation about prostitution?

It's good to have an expert on the subject in the discussion.

 

[Frikki]

Tens of thousands men women and children are trafficked in the US every year which makes it likely that you may have raped a slave sometime in your life. You have no way to ascertain if the prostitute that you rent is a slave, child slave or just loves to fuck men that are unable to get a woman without payment.
It is like with stolen goods, you may say that you did not know that the camera you bought from a guy on a street corner was stolen but the court will say that you should have suspected that it was.

The problem with sex trafficking is that the numbers are dubious.

1) Why would anybody have sex with a sex slave if they can go to a willing prostitute? Sex slaves you need to keep under surveillance, you need to smuggle into the country and you live in constant fear of being discovered. Why bother with all that work? Also, non-trafficked prostitutes have the same clients, and have a huge incentive for the traffickers to be taken down. We're a bit light on the evidence of this happening.

2) Prostitutes who have entered countries illegally have an incentive to say they were trafficked. If they do they are victims and not criminals. Their old boss is in jail now, so they have zero incentive not to throw him under a buss.

3) There's most likely a large grey area. Women who were offered jobs as prostitutes and when they got here the deal was changed and it's not as fun any longer. Or they're trapped practically in deals they're not happy with. They're perhaps on a contract for a certain time but now they want to break it early, but can't. Are they victims of trafficking? It's not clear at all.

4) We have no way of knowing how reliable the trafficking numbers are. There's just no way to conduct that research.

1) How do you know if the prostitute you are with is willing or not?

2) I´m not sure what you mean there can you clarify vis a vis the boss? Sex slavery is very much a group effort. For instance Hells Angels have been involved in procuring slaves for brothels in Germany.

3) Well if they want to leave the profession and are not allowed to and someone else holds the earnings then they are in fact slaves.

4) Victimisation surveys are one way to conduct the research, dark figure surveys also. The State Dept, CIA and FBI all claim that trafficking is in the tens of thousands and academic criminologists tend to agree with those figures more or less. It has been a few years since I studied criminology but I have no reason to expect that the numbers have changed drastically. The EU has an annual report on trafficking and if you look at page 104 of this report http://ec.europa.eu/anti-traffickin...eport-2015-trafficking-and-smuggling-full.pdf then you can read an account of how a Hungarian syndicate handled the trafficking of women and young girls.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Why does any thread with Derec devolve into a conversation about prostitution?

You spelled derail wrong by about 5 letters.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Why does any thread with Derec devolve into a conversation about prostitution?

This time around it seems that it was the (possibly off topic) mention of prostitution that drew Derec to this discussion, as his first post in the thread was a reply to a post about prostitution in Sweden.

Alright, who did it? *looking around room*

We aren't leaving this thread until someone fesses bringing up a Derec hot button issue in an unrelated thread.

 

[Patooka]

Why does any thread with Derec devolve into a conversation about prostitution?

They don't. Sometimes the threads devolve into why black people are evil.

 

[DrZoidberg]

1) How do you know if the prostitute you are with is willing or not?

What I said was that nobody knows. Nobody could know. Saying that therefore women are trafficked against their will is argument from ignorance. Then I argued why it's not particularly likely that prostitutes are slaves. I'm not saying it never happens. We know that it's standard operating procedure in war-zones. But when there's scores of willing prostitutes to the west there's just no incentive to force anyone. Germany operates legal brothels. The legality of it gives an insight to how that world operates. There the brothels compete for prostitutes offering various deals to them. Just like any employer would. It does function just like any workplace. Due to all the attention they get they make an effort to be squeaky clean and be maximally transparent.

2) I´m not sure what you mean there can you clarify vis a vis the boss? Sex slavery is very much a group effort. For instance Hells Angels have been involved in procuring slaves for brothels in Germany.

But why would they? Why not just pay a woman to kidnap herself and give her a decent salary? Like they do where ever it's legal.

There's just so much myths about trafficking that strikes me as absurd. I'd be willing to bet that the only trafficking that goes on in the west is the trafficking of children to pedophile rings. Awful, yes. But another topic entirely. And certainly something which johns would be aware of. Nothing regular prostitute buyers need to worry about.

3) Well if they want to leave the profession and are not allowed to and

What is your evidence these women are forced? Being prostitute is hard work. I think it requires a well motivated woman, since they're part therapist and part "physical therapist". Who wants a prostitute working for them that doesn't want to be there? Just think of the moral at work.

someone else holds the earnings then they are in fact slaves.

Yes, but it's a grey area. I get paid once a month. Am I a slave the rest of the month? If they have a contract for six months and the money is retained until the contract is complete, is that slavery? Maybe. Maybe not.

Employees will always be mistreated in fields which are illegal. Not always. but it will happen. There needs to be regulation. Which requires prostitution being legal. So that's an easy solution to this. Legalising prostitution will also make it much much easier to unwilling prostitutes. Since there will be an incentive from prostitutes (who want less competition) to report the sex traffickers.

4) Victimisation surveys are one way to conduct the research, dark figure surveys also. The State Dept, CIA and FBI all claim that trafficking is in the tens of thousands and academic criminologists tend to agree with those figures more or less. It has been a few years since I studied criminology but I have no reason to expect that the numbers have changed drastically. The EU has an annual report on trafficking and if you look at page 104 of this report http://ec.europa.eu/anti-traffickin...eport-2015-trafficking-and-smuggling-full.pdf then you can read an account of how a Hungarian syndicate handled the trafficking of women and young girls.

The report is on smuggling humans in general. A willing adult prostitute smuggled into a western country will show up as a sex trafficking victim in that report. It's important to keep a level head when reading statistics.

Page 104 refers to trafficking of minors. I'm pretty sure johns know a minor when they see one.

Laura Augustin is a researcher in the field. Where she does a stellar job is in doing peer review of published articles regarding sex work. She's fantastic. I recommend reading her blog on the topic. Here's a general one on tips on how to inform oneself.

http://www.lauraagustin.com/dear-students-of-sex-work-and-trafficking

It's important to understand how organisations like Ecpat and other anti-trafficking organisations function. Their members are mostly raving but-think-of-the-children lunatics. It's impossible to have any rational conversation with them. Any mention of suffering children and they are triggered. Anybody criticising them in any way is immediately shut down and labelled a paedophile. No politicians want to go near them. They're just left to rant and rave and push through one policy more absurd (and pointless) than the next. They're not actually protecting children. This is a mass psychosis. It reminds me more of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5goISKPSH8

Studies on trafficking are shown around and circulated and nobody dares question them. Laura Augustin does. But she's bullet proof by now due to her work for sex workers rights. So she can keep going. But there's not many like her.

 

[Frikki]

...

 

[Nice Squirrel]

2) I´m not sure what you mean there can you clarify vis a vis the boss? Sex slavery is very much a group effort. For instance Hells Angels have been involved in procuring slaves for brothels in Germany.

But why would they? Why not just pay a woman to kidnap herself and give her a decent salary? Like they do where ever it's legal.

There's just so much myths about trafficking that strikes me as absurd. I'd be willing to bet that the only trafficking that goes on in the west is the trafficking of children to pedophile rings.

Living in one of the hubs for human trafficking I can tell you it's real, it happens, and it is a huge problem here in the west.

 

[DrZoidberg]

But why would they? Why not just pay a woman to kidnap herself and give her a decent salary? Like they do where ever it's legal.

There's just so much myths about trafficking that strikes me as absurd. I'd be willing to bet that the only trafficking that goes on in the west is the trafficking of children to pedophile rings.

Living in one of the hubs for human trafficking I can tell you it's real, it happens, and it is a huge problem here in the west.

So then perhaps you could explain to me why trafficking is worth it for the traffickers? It's the financial model I wonder about. Trafficking is very expensive compared to just being a pimp. The winnings have to be massive to make the risk of getting caught worth it.

How's trafficking in Nevada? A problem their to?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Living in one of the hubs for human trafficking I can tell you it's real, it happens, and it is a huge problem here in the west.

Mainly because it's an illegal industry. It's like how murder, extortion and bribery were huge problems in the alcohol industry during Prohibition. If you structure a law to keep an industry under the control of criminals, they're going to do criminal things within that industry and you hamper the ability of the authorities to police that industry because the entire thing is unregulated and under the radar.

Legalizing prostitution won't stop sex slavery, of course, but it would put a major dent in it and also allow customers to be far more sure that they're having sex with a consenting partner and not raping a sex slave.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Living in one of the hubs for human trafficking I can tell you it's real, it happens, and it is a huge problem here in the west.

So then perhaps you could explain to me why trafficking is worth it for the traffickers? It's the financial model I wonder about. Trafficking is very expensive compared to just being a pimp. The winnings have to be massive to make the risk of getting caught worth it.

It's very lucrative. You lure women to another country with the promise of becoming models. Often the women buy the plane ticket. Their passport is held by the traffickers. Then the women are crowded into a room when one is viciously raped as a example to the others. They are told if they go to the police, the police won't believe them because they are foreign prostitutes and they will be thrown in jail for years. They are housed in a bunkhouse or a locked room.

As far as the money, the traffickers rent a motel room for $60. 10-20 men visit each day. That's about $1500 USD per day profit off of one slave. Or $45,000 USD per month.

One of the things that worry me about the Trump administration is
1) Trump has participated in trafficking through his modeling agency (do not know if it was a prostitution racket)
2) With the new immigration crackdown less people/hotel staff will be willing to go to the police to report suspected human trafficking.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I'm guessing that most prostitutes are drug addicts. Addiction is a different kind of thing in that it reduces a person's ability to make rational decisions in their own best interest. I think if someone wanted to engage in trafficking, getting their prostitutes addicted to drugs would greatly help to keep them compliant.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I'm guessing that most prostitutes are drug addicts. Addiction is a different kind of thing in that it reduces a person's ability to make rational decisions in their own best interest. I think if someone wanted to engage in trafficking, getting their prostitutes addicted to drugs would greatly help to keep them compliant.

I've seen a Swedish study (ten years old now). In that study 95% of all prostitutes (at the time of doing the study) were university students. Not motivated by addiction. It's a job well suited to combine with studies. Also, Rose Alliance members (the sex workers union of Sweden) also question that image. They were also not illegal aliens.

I think the drug addict prostitutes, while real, isn't the main group of prostitutes. I think it's been heavily promoted as the main image of prostitutes because feminists wants to see all prostitutes as victims. If they're helpless victims of addiction we are justified to ignore what they say and we can treat them as children.

It is remarkable that the prostitutes themselves do not have a voice in the prostitution legalisation debate.

- - - Updated - - -

And if you think my views are crazy. Amnesty International shares them.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...research-on-protection-of-sex-workers-rights/

 

[Nice Squirrel]

I think the drug addict prostitutes, while real, isn't the main group of prostitutes. I think it's been heavily promoted as the main image of prostitutes because feminists wants to see all prostitutes as victims.

I see this alot and have wondered about it, along with the claim all exotic dancers were sexually abused as children. Unfortunately a great many have been, but not more when compared to the public at large. I think it is a way to subliminally shame them.