DERAIL - Swedish Prostitution

[Tom Sawyer]

I think the drug addict prostitutes, while real, isn't the main group of prostitutes. I think it's been heavily promoted as the main image of prostitutes because feminists wants to see all prostitutes as victims.

I see this alot and have wondered about it, along with the claim all exotic dancers were sexually abused as children. Unfortunately a great many have been, but not more when compared to the public at large. I think it is a way to subliminally shame them.

Huh. I was unaware that there was a subliminal aspect to the attempts to shame them with things like this.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

I see this alot and have wondered about it, along with the claim all exotic dancers were sexually abused as children. Unfortunately a great many have been, but not more when compared to the public at large. I think it is a way to subliminally shame them.

Huh. I was unaware that there was a subliminal aspect to the attempts to shame them with things like this.

and liminal.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I think the drug addict prostitutes, while real, isn't the main group of prostitutes. I think it's been heavily promoted as the main image of prostitutes because feminists wants to see all prostitutes as victims.

I see this alot and have wondered about it, along with the claim all exotic dancers were sexually abused as children. Unfortunately a great many have been, but not more when compared to the public at large. I think it is a way to subliminally shame them.

The problem with that is that everybody has something traumatic they can point to. I remember the biggest study they'd ever done in Sweden on sexual crime. They asked every 18 year old in all of Sweden if they'd ever been the victim of a sexual assault. 100% said they had been. Sweden is a very safe country in genreal. If "our" women report this then how common is it in other countries? My guess is that all women have at some point been the victim of sexual assault.

The hard part isn't finding the trauma that led to the behaviour. But rather explaining why the women who turned out fine turned out fine.

I saw a similar study on people who'd been seriously sexually molested as children by a guardian. Same thing there. The molested children who grew up with mental problems, blamed the molestation. But adults who had been molested as children were no more mentally ill than people who hadn't been. The numbers were identical. It seemed to have no measurable effect.

 

[Derec]

They don't. Sometimes the threads devolve into why black people are evil.

Only because people like you say that as some sort of giant straw man worthy of Burning Man.
I never have held nor expressed such an opinion about black people in general. I do criticize individual people and groups, but when those people or groups are part of a privileged group (blacks, hispanics, women, Muslims) some people on here lose their rag.

 

[Derec]

Just a routine drug arrest in Sweden

Routine drug arrest in areas that are more Swedistan than Sweden. ]

That's the "New Sweden" politicians like Mona Sahlin think is so superior to old Sweden.

 

[Derec]

We aren't leaving this thread until someone fesses bringing up a Derec hot button issue in an unrelated thread.

It was Malintent.

False. Sweden is doing it right. When they have a social issue, they go after those causing harm, and treat those affected as the victims.
Prostitution - it is illegal, but the prostitutes are not arrested, they get free counseling and work placement. The 'Johns' are arrested.
Heroin - It is illegal, but while the drug dealers are arrested for dealing illegal drugs, the users are treated as victims... they receive counseling, housing, medical assistance, and job placement.

 

[Derec]

1) How do you know if the prostitute you are with is willing or not?

How do you know anything for sure? You can't. But at the same time you can make observations and go by that.
It would certainly be easier if sex work is legal because then the authorities can focus on the actual problem instead of persecuting consenting adults.

2) I´m not sure what you mean there can you clarify vis a vis the boss? Sex slavery is very much a group effort.

Which is why I perefer independent contractors.

For instance Hells Angels have been involved in procuring slaves for brothels in Germany.

Citation needed, preferably from a source that does not conflate all sex work with "trafficking" and "slavery".

3) Well if they want to leave the profession and are not allowed to and someone else holds the earnings then they are in fact slaves.

But what does that have to do with sex? Such conditions occur in for example food industry. That is no reason to outlaw food industry or to treat anybody who is not growing their own food or is getting their food for free as some sort of criminal.
Why Slave Labor Still Plagues The Global Food System

4) Victimisation surveys are one way to conduct the research, dark figure surveys also. The State Dept, CIA and FBI all claim that trafficking is in the tens of thousands and academic criminologists tend to agree with those figures more or less.

I think authorities should go hard against people holding other people against their will and forcing them to perform work.
That is not a reason to outlaw the entire industry, however.

 

[Derec]

True, I´m not totally against the legalisation of prostitution but I was explaining to the "crimigrant" why it makes sense to criminalise the renting of women that may be slaves and not the act of prostitution itself since a certain number of prostitutes have little choice while the johns do.

(emphasis added)
No, you have not explained it at all. Mere possibility of involuntary servitude does not mean one should make all prostitution illegal nor does it mean we should lock up customers who are usually unaware of the situation even to the extent that it occurs.

Should you be locked up for buying a tomato that was picked/processed by somebody in involuntary servitude?
Should you be locked up simply because there is a possibility that the person who picked/processed the tomato you bought may be in involuntary servitude?
Why Slave Labor Still Plagues The Global Food System
Should we outlaw the food industry entirely and tell people that they are scum if they don't get all their food for free?

Or let's give another example. Let's say a woman goes to a nail salon. I don't know about Iceland (do women there get their nails done up there or has it become illegal yet?) but around here many of those are staffed by Vietnamese women. If a shady owner of a nail salon brought some of them illegally and is holding back their wages/passports and preventing them from leaving, should the women getting their nails done be treated as criminals even though they are not aware of anything like that going on? And should they be treated as criminals because of a mere possibility that something like that may be going on even if it actually isn't in this case?
And furthermore, should all employees of a nail salon be treated as if they were forced to do it, whether or not that actually applies in their case?
Let's say a woman decides to work independently and do nails, should she be automatically be treated as a "victim" just because there are some victims in her large industry?

And why should sex be treated differently from any other service? Other than sex-negative moralizing inherited from Abrahamic religions?

 

[Derec]

He also hates Mooslems. Is there a connection?

I don't hate Muslims. I am against mass migration of Muslims, many of them funddamentalists, into Western countries. Those are very different things.

But there is a connection. I am social libertarian. Both fundamentalist Islam (as well as Christianity but that is not much of a problem in Europe) and fundamentalist feminism are opposed to many individual sexual freedoms. Maybe that's why Swedish feminists love fundamentalist Islam.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I don't hate Muslims. I am against mass migration of Muslims, many of them funddamentalists, into Western countries. Those are very different things.

In that sentence you proved that you do hate Muslims. I suspect it's racism. But it's just a suspicion.

But there is a connection. I am social libertarian.

HA HA HA HA HA. No you're not. You are the opposite. You have the most twisted and perverse concept of social libertarianism I've ever come across. In Sweden libertarians help smuggle migrants into Sweden, and help them go underground when they're threatened with deportation. You know, because they love freedom.

Both fundamentalist Islam (as well as Christianity but that is not much of a problem in Europe) and fundamentalist feminism are opposed to many individual sexual freedoms. Maybe that's why Swedish feminists love fundamentalist Islam.

They are? I'm pretty sure they're the main target of fundie Islamic hate in the world. My theory is that fundamentalist Islam is mainly fuelled by their fear of empowered women.

 

[Derec]

Tens of thousands men women and children are trafficked in the US every year which makes it likely that you may have raped a slave sometime in your life.

First of all, many trafficking victims are employed in industries other than sex industry. Should we outlaw those too?
Second, anti-trafficking groups tend to conflate all sex work with trafficking. Thus their figures are unreliable.
Third, rape requires intent. Let's say an Icelandic woman's kid was kidnapped and the kidnapper ordered her to seduce you and sleep with you or her child will be killed. Did you just rape her?

You have no way to ascertain if the prostitute that you rent is a slave, child slave or just loves to fuck men that are unable to get a woman without payment.

Neither do you have a way to ascertain for sure whether the woman you sleep with and are not paying is acting under some duress like in the scenario above. If we are going to go by hypotheticals, there are many of those.
However, there are ways to reduce the chances greatly. I prefer independent contractors and also have a couple of regulars whom I have gotten to know relatively well.

It is like with stolen goods, you may say that you did not know that the camera you bought from a guy on a street corner was stolen but the court will say that you should have suspected that it was.

Except that I am allowed to go to a store and buy a camera.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

First of all, many trafficking victims are employed in industries other than sex industry. Should we outlaw those too?
Second, anti-trafficking groups tend to conflate all sex work with trafficking. Thus their figures are unreliable.
Third, rape requires intent. Let's say an Icelandic woman's kid was kidnapped and the kidnapper ordered her to seduce you and sleep with you or her child will be killed. Did you just rape her?

You have no way to ascertain if the prostitute that you rent is a slave, child slave or just loves to fuck men that are unable to get a woman without payment.

Neither do you have a way to ascertain for sure whether the woman you sleep with and are not paying is acting under some duress like in the scenario above. If we are going to go by hypotheticals, there are many of those.
However, there are ways to reduce the chances greatly. I prefer independent contractors and also have a couple of regulars whom I have gotten to know relatively well.

It is like with stolen goods, you may say that you did not know that the camera you bought from a guy on a street corner was stolen but the court will say that you should have suspected that it was.

Except that I am allowed to go to a store and buy a camera.

Look, if you cannot accept our culture and values, then you shouldn't be here.

 

[Derec]

In that sentence you proved that you do hate Muslims. I suspect it's racism. But it's just a suspicion.

Again, just because I am against mass migration does not mean I hate anybody. I don't hate people in my city either, but I still would not want all of them to move to my house.

HA HA HA HA HA. No you're not. You are the opposite. You have the most twisted and perverse concept of social libertarianism I've ever come across. In Sweden libertarians help smuggle migrants into Sweden, and help them go underground when they're threatened with deportation. You know, because they love freedom.

No, those are not social libertarians. Those are either misguided do-gooders or those who think Western culture is corrupt and should be replaced by something like Islamic culture.
But Islamic culture is very opposed to individual freedom. Thus, by bringing in hordes of fundamentalist Muslims from places like Afghanistan, they are reducing overall freedom, not increasing it. Btw, I would bet that 90%+ of those illegal Muslim smugglers also favor sex work being outlawed. So much for "freedom".

They are? I'm pretty sure they're the main target of fundie Islamic hate in the world. My theory is that fundamentalist Islam is mainly fuelled by their fear of empowered women.

In many areas they have surprisingly similar views. And Islamic and left-wing terrorists have a history of working together. Example: Entebbe.

 

[Derec]

Look, if you cannot accept our culture and values, then you shouldn't be here.

Except that sex work is part of every culture. It's not just us naturalized citizens who (in)frequent sex workers. It's mostly regular anglo Americans.

Sex work was actually legal in US until the late 19th/early 20th century. It's home-grown, not some foreign imposition. Unlike say Sharia law.

 

[Malintent]

Why does any thread with Derec devolve into a conversation about prostitution?

I don't think that was his fault. It was the community that latched on to my post pointing out that Sweden has a very liberal approach to certain social problems, ONE of which was how they deal with prostitution. This community chose interest in that aspect over the encompassing point of legislative philosophy... and the thread was subsequently split. Just pointing that out. People are free to discuss whatever aspects of posts interest them the most... and if a split is warranted, that is at the discretion of the mods.

 

[Derec]

I am actually capable of getting a woman

Are you? Then why aren't you balls-deep in them rather than obsessing about me and my sex life?

and I don´t need to rent a likely trafficing victim to get my rocks off.

Why do you say "likely"? How "likely" do you think it is?

But back to immigrant criminals, how has your day been and what are your thoughts on your hero Milo being more or less ok with pedophilia?

First of all, Milo is hardly my hero. I only became aware of him in the first place due to violent response of leftists when he is scheduled to speak somewhere. I do find some of the things he says funny, but that's about it.
Second, there is a difference between pedophilia, hebephilia and ephebophilia. Most people improperly conflate the three. Chrome's spell checker doesn't even recognize the latter two.

In any case, he really stepped into it. I wonder whom the left will pick now to violently protest.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Are you? Then why aren't you balls-deep in them rather than obsessing about me and my sex life?

Why do you need to be balls deep in women? And maybe we wouldn't discuss your sex life if you didn't bring it up. We have been over the ways of how you can fix your perceived lack of relationships. You have rejected our advice, so I have little sympathy left. If you want to continue to wallow in self-pity, please do. If you want help, we are here.

 

[Toni]

Well, the feminist authorities in Sweden keep locking up their customers for no good reason, so it's kind of hard to engage in that line of work.

Also you are missing the part where not all prostitutes are female.

Vast majority are. If they weren't, then the feminist Left would not declare them all victims automatically.

As well as the part where a large segment of prostitutes of any gender are not prostituting themselves because they are exercising their own agency but because they are compelled to do so.

What do you consider a "large segment"? Note that anti-sex work groups love to conflate "trafficking" and sex work in general.

Every source I've seen indicates that more than 80% of prostitutes are not in the trade because they wish to be. If it were such a desirable trade, there would be no sex trafficking. Unfortunately, sex trafficking is a significant problem all over the world, including where sex work is legal.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Every source I've seen indicates that more than 80% of prostitutes are not in the trade because they wish to be. If it were such a desirable trade, there would be no sex trafficking. Unfortunately, sex trafficking is a significant problem all over the world, including where sex work is legal.

Ya, legalizing prostitution won't stop sex trafficking, mainly because there will likely always be more willing customers than providers and legalization will raise the price and there will always be a segment of the customer base who wants to save money on discounted options without caring about why it is that these women are discounted.

However, keeping the industry illegal doesn't help to solve the problem and has the entire thing run by a criminal element and makes it more dangerous for the women involved because nobody in the industry wants police involved in what's going on. Having a legal, regulated segment of the industry where the women are protected and the men can be sure they're finding a willing partner will allow the police to focus on the abuse and exploitation in the industry without the need to criminalize consensual sex at the same time.

 

[dismal]

Nope. It's the complete opposite. Swedish drug enforcement is a complete disaster.

You have to understand that when the American left says "Sweden" they are talking about how they imagine things would work in Lefty Leftopia not the actual Sweden.