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Dictatorship is neither left nor right

untermensche

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Dictators can arise from any side of the spectrum. They are an expression of the desire in some for total control and for no need to compromise.

But once a dictator is in power the idea of left and right have lost all meaning. There are no longer competing factions.

Left and right only have meaning in a democracy where power is won through a competition.

And today they generally mean little more than party loyalty.

Today right leaning Democrats like Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton are called "leftists" when they are to the right of Eisenhower.

This is because the right in American politics now is radical and insane. With an insane leader guiding them. It is a group of dangerous fundamentalists. But that is not the topic here.

The topic is dictatorship and idea that some are right wing and some are left wing.

That idea is nonsense.

They are all a departure from any wing.

Dictatorship is despicable in any form and to be within one is to be dehumanized. In a dictatorship the idea of left and right have no meaning anymore.
 
Dictators can arise from any side of the spectrum. They are an expression of the desire in some for total control and for no need to compromise.

But once a dictator is in power the idea of left and right have lost all meaning. There are no longer competing factions.

Left and right only have meaning in a democracy where power is won through a competition.

And today they generally mean little more than party loyalty.

Today right leaning Democrats like Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton are called "leftists" when they are to the right of Eisenhower.

This is because the right in American politics now is radical and insane. With an insane leader guiding them. It is a group of dangerous fundamentalists. But that is not the topic here.

The topic is dictatorship and idea that some are right wing and some are left wing.

That idea is nonsense.

They are all a departure from any wing.

Dictatorship is despicable in any form and to be within one is to be dehumanized. In a dictatorship the idea of left and right have no meaning anymore.

A dictator creates their own party, for all intents and purposes, and we should not expect them to conform to any other group's notion of proper governance. If we're talking about Americans here (as you seem to be) the notion of a dictator would be opprobrious in the eyes of traditionalists to either stripe, as fierce defense of individual liberty and a fear of tyrants is inherent to the rhetoric of both parties and indeed a core unifying philosophical trend among Americans generally.
 
Dictators can arise from any side of the spectrum. They are an expression of the desire in some for total control and for no need to compromise.

But once a dictator is in power the idea of left and right have lost all meaning. There are no longer competing factions.

Left and right only have meaning in a democracy where power is won through a competition.

And today they generally mean little more than party loyalty.

Today right leaning Democrats like Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton are called "leftists" when they are to the right of Eisenhower.

This is because the right in American politics now is radical and insane. With an insane leader guiding them. It is a group of dangerous fundamentalists. But that is not the topic here.

The topic is dictatorship and idea that some are right wing and some are left wing.

That idea is nonsense.

They are all a departure from any wing.

Dictatorship is despicable in any form and to be within one is to be dehumanized. In a dictatorship the idea of left and right have no meaning anymore.

A dictator creates their own party, for all intents and purposes, and we should not expect them to conform to any other group's notion of proper governance. If we're talking about Americans here (as you seem to be) the notion of a dictator would be opprobrious in the eyes of traditionalists to either stripe, as fierce defense of individual liberty and a fear of tyrants is inherent to the rhetoric of both parties and indeed a core unifying philosophical trend among Americans generally.

Funny, but my immediate thought was a dictatorship that supports individual rights might be better than a democracy that didn't. The US founders are full of quotes warning of the dangers of democracy.

But it's hard to disagree with Unter on this one. "Dictatorship" versus "Democracy" describes the process by which laws are made not whether the laws are of any particular type. In practice, of course, governments that don't protect the right to vote aren't usually good on protecting other rights. And in practice governments that tend to view humanity as a collective rather than individuals with rights don't tend to do well with democracy either.
 
Funny, but my immediate thought was a dictatorship that supports individual rights might be better than a democracy that didn't.

Dictatorship in itself is a violation of human liberty and the freedom of people to create their own state.

The US founders are full of quotes warning of the dangers of democracy.

Slave owners tend to oppose things that make them less than master.

The founders did not have one mind.

And they moved the world a little from monarchy towards democracy.

Some want to run right back.

The cure for dictatorship is democracy. It is the only known cure.

We have come to a place where we understand that the only legitimate form of government is some kind of democracy. Anything else is illegitimate.

The better the democracy and the more voices in it the more legitimate the government.
 
A dictator creates their own party, for all intents and purposes, and we should not expect them to conform to any other group's notion of proper governance.

They surround themselves with agents of their will and they demand worship like Trump demands his cabinet say nice things about him.

If we're talking about Americans here (as you seem to be) the notion of a dictator would be opprobrious in the eyes of traditionalists to either stripe, as fierce defense of individual liberty and a fear of tyrants is inherent to the rhetoric of both parties and indeed a core unifying philosophical trend among Americans generally.

Either party could fall prey to a dictator. The dictator that first says we put party over nation.
 
Funny, but my immediate thought was a dictatorship that supports individual rights might be better than a democracy that didn't.

Dictatorship in itself is a violation of human liberty and the freedom of people to create their own state.

The US founders are full of quotes warning of the dangers of democracy.

Slave owners tend to oppose things that make them less than master.

The founders did not have one mind.

And they moved the world a little from monarchy towards democracy.

Some want to run right back.

The cure for dictatorship is democracy. It is the only known cure.

We have come to a place where we understand that the only legitimate form of government is some kind of democracy. Anything else is illegitimate.

The better the democracy and the more voices in it the more legitimate the government.

Well, then. I think I'll move along so you can get back to your street corner ranting.
 
Funny, but my immediate thought was a dictatorship that supports individual rights might be better than a democracy that didn't. The US founders are full of quotes warning of the dangers of democracy.

Sure, a benevolent dictatorship is better than a corrupt democracy. The difference is that a democracy is (hypothetically at least) able to self-correct, whereas if a dictator is evil or is replaced by evil, there is no chance. We will see shortly whether the American version of democracy is resilient enough to overcome the current evil, or succumbs to the efforts underway to make it an evil dictatorship.
 
Dictatorship in itself is a violation of human liberty and the freedom of people to create their own state.



Slave owners tend to oppose things that make them less than master.

The founders did not have one mind.

And they moved the world a little from monarchy towards democracy.

Some want to run right back.

The cure for dictatorship is democracy. It is the only known cure.

We have come to a place where we understand that the only legitimate form of government is some kind of democracy. Anything else is illegitimate.

The better the democracy and the more voices in it the more legitimate the government.

Well, then. I think I'll move along so you can get back to your street corner ranting.

In other words you have no argument to dispute any of it.

Appealing to the desires of slave owners is not an argument against democracy.

People like Jay, a minor writer of the Federalist Papers, wrote that those that owned the nation ought to run it.

There is your fear of democracy in a nutshell.

The fear that owning the nation wouldn't allow you to run it.

Without democracy who would run the nation but the most wealthy?

You offer nothing but slavish devotion to the idea of oligarchy and nothing more.
 
Funny, but my immediate thought was a dictatorship that supports individual rights might be better than a democracy that didn't. The US founders are full of quotes warning of the dangers of democracy.

Sure, a benevolent dictatorship is better than a corrupt democracy. The difference is that a democracy is (hypothetically at least) able to self-correct, whereas if a dictator is evil or is replaced by evil, there is no chance. We will see shortly whether the American version of democracy is resilient enough to overcome the current evil, or succumbs to the efforts underway to make it an evil dictatorship.

LOL @ "current evil".

ZMFIOG THE TWEETS!
 
The current evil is just what Orwell talked about.

We have a national emergency!

Has the level of threat risen anywhere?

No.
 
Funny, but my immediate thought was a dictatorship that supports individual rights might be better than a democracy that didn't.

Dictatorship in itself is a violation of human liberty and the freedom of people to create their own state.

Yes, but a democracy can lead to far more violations of human liberty, even though they will tend not to. A democracy can still vote to rob the populace of their basic rights to think, speak, act, freely. And an unelected dictator can choose to allow everyone to do anything they want other than chose a new dictator. If 49.9% of the population have zero liberties, then that is a greater violation of liberty than if 100% of the population have all liberties minus 1.

IOW, in the short run, a benevolent dictator is preferable to a malevolent democratic majority. However, in the long run and in the vast majority of instances dictatorships will be worse than democracies in terms of violations of human liberty. That is b/c dictatorial power will attract and produce those with malevolent motives. Power of office in democracies will also attract malevolent motives to some degree, but b/c each individual has varied and sometime conflicting self interests, this puts a constraint on how much damage to others that malevolence would do.
The US founders are full of quotes warning of the dangers of democracy.

Slave owners tend to oppose things that make them less than master.

No, they feared a tyranny of the majority, which I know you deny is possible, but they were smart enough to know was not merely possible but highly probable. This is why within 6 months of the start of the Constitutional democracy they created, they passed a Bill of Rights to protect individuals, especially those in the minority, from violations of human rights by the will of the majority.
Without this and the principles it represents, almost none of the moral, social, and political progress of the subsequent 200 years (including the end of slavery and Jim Crow laws) would have occurred. The value of Democracy lies in its protection of the rights of each individual by forcing law makers to at minimum get consent from 50% of the populace. But it does nothing to protect the other 49.9% of the populace who are little better under a Democracy than a dictatorship, without explicit protections of individuals that restricts the power of the democratic majority and gives deference to the power of the individual unless the state can show a compelling interest.

On a related note, this is also why many of the founders favored secularism and opposed influence of religious authority on the state or any notion that the laws were derived from Christianity. They understood that Christianity was inherently authoritarian and did not respect individual rights of self determination. They also understood that faith was the enemy of reason and that for Democracy to have its positive impact required that arguments about the balance of state interests versus individual rights must be grounded in evidence and reasoning and not just the irrational will of a majority.
 
Yes, but a democracy can lead to far more violations of human liberty, even though they will tend not to. A democracy can still vote to rob the populace of their basic rights to think, speak, act, freely. And an unelected dictator can choose to allow everyone to do anything they want other than chose a new dictator. If 49.9% of the population have zero liberties, then that is a greater violation of liberty than if 100% of the population have all liberties minus 1.

You completely ignore the issue of legitimacy in you talk of things that never happen.

A dictator has NO legitimacy to do anything, good or bad.

The goodness from a dictator is stained by the illegitimate nature of their having the power to do it.

While even a bad representative in a democracy acts with legitimacy.

IOW, in the short run, a benevolent dictator is preferable to a malevolent democratic majority.

To scattered-brained crows that don't care about legitimate governance.

The idea is to make power as tenuous as possible.

Make elected servants as easy to kick out as possible.

The dictator today can smile and when times become a little tough can crush mercilessly.

There is no history of a majority in real control moving to crush the rights of others.

I can't think of an instance in history where a majority ever had real control.

Slave owners tend to oppose things that make them less than master.

No, they feared a tyranny of the majority, which I know you deny is possible, but they were smart enough to know was not merely possible but highly probable.

They were absolute tyrants running a system of human torture and you want to talk about how smart they were?

The so-called "tyranny of the majority" is addressed as you say by Constitutional protections of rights that require super majorities to override.

I know next you will be wailing about the tyranny of the super-majority.

The protections of rights would be far more paramount in a democracy than in any dictatorship.

In a dictatorship all rights exist by whim and can disappear on a whim.

But you prefer this to super-majority protected Constitutional rights?

How far will you go to defend dictatorship?
 
The current evil is just what Orwell talked about.

We have a national emergency!

Has the level of threat risen anywhere?

No.

I believe we have 32 national emergencies.

Relax Chicken Little.

There is a little room left in our emergency rooms.

Go tell the nice doctors about your fears.

Well, you're the one who brought up national emergencies as if they had some relevance to the discussion. I just corrected your statement.
 
You completely ignore the issue of legitimacy in you talk of things that never happen.

A dictator has NO legitimacy to do anything, good or bad.

The goodness from a dictator is stained by the illegitimate nature of their having the power to do it.

While even a bad representative in a democracy acts with legitimacy.



To scattered-brained crows that don't care about legitimate governance.

The idea is to make power as tenuous as possible.

Make elected servants as easy to kick out as possible.

The dictator today can smile and when times become a little tough can crush mercilessly.

There is no history of a majority in real control moving to crush the rights of others.

I can't think of an instance in history where a majority ever had real control.

Slave owners tend to oppose things that make them less than master.

No, they feared a tyranny of the majority, which I know you deny is possible, but they were smart enough to know was not merely possible but highly probable.

They were absolute tyrants running a system of human torture and you want to talk about how smart they were?

The so-called "tyranny of the majority" is addressed as you say by Constitutional protections of rights that require super majorities to override.

I know next you will be wailing about the tyranny of the super-majority.

The protections of rights would be far more paramount in a democracy than in any dictatorship.

In a dictatorship all rights exist by whim and can disappear on a whim.

But you prefer this to super-majority protected Constitutional rights?

How far will you go to defend dictatorship?

Try to calm down, control your dogma, stop the personal insults, and listen, think, and reason.

Almost nothing in your reply has logical relevance to what I said.

I very explicit stated that a democratic system is preferable and generally leads to better protection of rights.
That makes most of your post irrelevant since you assume I have argued in favor of dictatorships.

What I said is that there is nothing inherent within democracy itself that protects the rights of the minority. In fact, a democratic majority can vote to eliminate their own basic rights, which has occurred plenty of times when they want everyone to be forced to to do or not do X (such as with abortion) and do not want even themselves to have the right to control their own reproduction.

A dictator can choose to grant rights to people that a democratic majority can choose not to. Do you deny this simple fact of reality?
And there have been non-democratic rulers who have granted their subjects rights that have been taken away under democratic rule (again, abortion is and example, as has been religious liberties). That just means that since majority rule by itself does not protect the human rights of the minority, you can have and there have been instances where a particular dictator is better for the rights of some people than a democratic majority. But since benovolent dictators are uncommon, dictatorships are generally worse than democracies, even when those democracies are not restrained by basic individual rights that prevail over the will of the majority.

To protect basic rights requires a Bill of Rights, but democracy itself is not neccessary and far from sufficient to produce such a Bill of Rights. This is nothing about a democratic system of election legislators that will inherently produce a Bill of Rights, which is why there are plenty of examples of democratic systems that vary wildly in or largely lack such rights.

In addition, non democratic systems can and have produced legal rights of the populace, even those who did not elect them or do not support them. In fact, the US constitution and Bill of Rights are not really democratically produced documents.

The US Constitution and the Bill of Rights were thought up by a couple of "tyrants" as you call them, with no consultation from 99.999% of the population, and voted upon by a handful of other "tyrants" whose authority to do so was only granted to them by the small % of people who declared without democratic legitimacy that they were the only ones with the right to vote. Had these "tyrants" actually allowed the populace (whether just white men or the whole populace) democratic input, neither the Constitution nor Bill of Rights would likely have been ratified. In fact, Vermont was the only State to chose to give its citizens a chance to vote on the Constitution and 90% voted against it. So, a year later after every other state had ratified, Vermont delegates decided the people were too stupid to be given this task and voted amongst themselves to ratify.

In PA, the Constitution was only ratified b/c it's supporters committed assault and kidnapping of the delegates who opposed it, physically dragging them through the streets and into the assembly hall so there would be enough members present to legitimize a vote.

Yet this lack of democracy that led to a constitutional democracy and a Bill to protect individual rights does not undermine the fact that these documents laid the foundation for government and society where equality and individual rights would see huge progress, and prevent a majority vote from undoing that progress, despite plenty of moments in history where a majority of voters would likely have voted to violate the Constitution. And while requiring a Super-majority to undo some of those rights is a good start to protecting against a tyranny of the majority, that doesn't go far enough.

The even less democratic document, the Declaration of Independence, gets it more right than the Constitution. Some basic liberties (such as speech) are philosophically inalienable and can never, even by a 100% democratic vote be rescinded. They have more value and legitimacy than democracy itself whose value largely derives from its protection of individuals rights.

Thus, if at some point a super majority exists to oppose the 1st Amendment, then that democracy and it's will no longer serve their legitimate function, and those who value basic rights would be morally obligated to use violence if needed to oppose that democratic will.
 
Try to calm down, control your dogma, stop the personal insults, and listen, think, and reason.

Preferring democracy to dictatorship is no dogma and the people that think it is deserve to be insulted. They are an insult to reason.

Almost nothing in your reply has logical relevance to what I said.

Because you don't seem to comprehend the idea of legitimacy.

Rights are much more likely to be lost within a dictatorship.

And there is nothing legitimate about any dictatorship.

What about legitimacy?

Thus, if at some point a super majority exists to oppose the 1st Amendment, then that democracy and it's will no longer serve their legitimate function, and those who value basic rights would be morally obligated to use violence if needed to oppose that democratic will.

Such dramatics in service to dictatorship.

You don't get super majorities wanting to take away rights.

It has never happened.
 
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