Well, good luck with your own language there. I find it's easier to communicate if I stick with the meanings of words that everyone else uses.
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Dictatorship is neither left nor right
- Thread starter untermensche
- Start date
Well, good luck with your own language there. I find it's easier to communicate if I stick with the meanings of words that everyone else uses.
Jason Harvestdancer
Contributor
It was a great triumph of the democratic process.
The democratic process moved the nation from slavery to the Civil Rights Act.
That is where democracy has brought us.
Yet somehow you have a problem with democracy.
I'm not making a value judgement, I'm stating a fact. The exact same system that gave us the Civil Rights Act is the exact same system that gave us Jim Crow. Same franchise, some representation, same everything else.
So if one of them is Democracy, so is the other.
So if one of them is not Democracy, so is the other.
So if one of them is imperfect Democracy, so is the other.
I'm not saying it is good or bad, I'm just saying it is what it is. You're the one attaching value judgements, and you say the two are different because ... because even though they have the same system, you say the system was different because you like one of the results and don't like one of the results. I'm not passing value judgements, I'm just stating facts. You're not stating facts, you're passing value judgements ... but what good is a value judgement without facts?
untermensche
Contributor
Something about exercising power in there.
A lot more than just voting.
Voting for people that don't care what you have to say is not exercising power with your vote.
Well, good luck with your own language there. I find it's easier to communicate if I stick with the meanings of words that everyone else uses.
You think democracy is merely casting votes.
Yet the definition you provide talks about exercising power with votes.
You are missing something.
untermensche
Contributor
It was a great triumph of the democratic process.
The democratic process moved the nation from slavery to the Civil Rights Act.
That is where democracy has brought us.
Yet somehow you have a problem with democracy.
I'm not making a value judgement, I'm stating a fact. The exact same system that gave us the Civil Rights Act is the exact same system that gave us Jim Crow. Same franchise, some representation, same everything else.
So if one of them is Democracy, so is the other.
So if one of them is not Democracy, so is the other.
So if one of them is imperfect Democracy, so is the other.
I'm not saying it is good or bad, I'm just saying it is what it is. You're the one attaching value judgements, and you say the two are different because ... because even though they have the same system, you say the system was different because you like one of the results and don't like one of the results. I'm not passing value judgements, I'm just stating facts. You're not stating facts, you're passing value judgements ... but what good is a value judgement without facts?
You are making the absurd argument that slavery and all the problems that flowed from allowing a sadistic minority to torture humans for centuries is a problem with democracy.
As absurd as claiming cancer is a problem with democracy.
Do you have any other problems allegedly caused by democracy besides slavery and the sick history immediately after slavery?
Jason Harvestdancer
Contributor
Do you have any other problems allegedly caused by democracy besides slavery and the sick history immediately after slavery?
The exact same system that gave us the Civil Rights Act is the exact same system that gave us Jim Crow. Same franchise, some representation, same everything else. Fact.
So if one of them is Democracy, so is the other. Fact.
So if one of them is not Democracy, so is the other. Fact.
So if one of them is imperfect Democracy, so is the other. Fact.
Do you dispute the facts?
If you want to have a reality based conversation, there are two options for you. Either you say neither of them were democracy, or admit that democracies sometimes do bad things.
untermensche
Contributor
I heard you.
You think democracy caused centuries of race based slavery and all the racists and their race based laws.
To you centuries of race based slavery leading to widespread racism that created race based laws and excluded blacks from voting is an expression of democracy.
You think the nation is still filled with problems created by racists because of democracy.
It is total stupidity but you've said it.
And it seems you have nothing else.
Thanks.
I suggest you read a little.
Read about how racism is transmitted from parent to child and from peer to peer.
I assure you democracy has nothing to do with it.
It really takes a twisted mind to blame democracy for problems caused by allowing a minority to own and torture humans for centuries.
You think democracy caused centuries of race based slavery and all the racists and their race based laws.
To you centuries of race based slavery leading to widespread racism that created race based laws and excluded blacks from voting is an expression of democracy.
You think the nation is still filled with problems created by racists because of democracy.
It is total stupidity but you've said it.
And it seems you have nothing else.
Thanks.
I suggest you read a little.
Read about how racism is transmitted from parent to child and from peer to peer.
I assure you democracy has nothing to do with it.
It really takes a twisted mind to blame democracy for problems caused by allowing a minority to own and torture humans for centuries.
Something about exercising power in there.
A lot more than just voting.
Voting for people that don't care what you have to say is not exercising power with your vote.
Well, good luck with your own language there. I find it's easier to communicate if I stick with the meanings of words that everyone else uses.
You think democracy is merely casting votes.
Yet the definition you provide talks about exercising power with votes.
You are missing something.
Hmm, I can't imagine why you think you are onto something important here.
If you feel its necessary to qualify, I agree that Democracy is government by people voting, then counting the votes, and the most votes wins.
I think humans understand the rest of this is implied when you say "Democracy means people vote".
untermensche
Contributor
You think democracy is merely casting votes.
Yet the definition you provide talks about exercising power with votes.
You are missing something.
Hmm, I can't imagine why you think you are onto something important here.
If you feel its necessary to qualify, I agree that Democracy is government by people voting, then counting the votes, and the most votes wins.
I think humans understand the rest of this is implied when you say "Democracy means people vote".
People voted in Saddam Hussein's Iraq.
He always did well.
Just voting is meaningless and it is not democracy.
Jason Harvestdancer
Contributor
I heard you.
You think democracy caused centuries of race based slavery and all the racists and their race based laws.
I think a group of elected representatives got together and voted on something. You have admitted that is a form of Democracy. Therefore you say that Jim Crow is the result of Democracy.
By the way, the subject is Jim Crow, not slavery.
Read about how racism is transmitted from parent to child and from peer to peer.
I assure you democracy has nothing to do with it.
If the majority is racist then you're going to get racist outcomes in a Democracy.
You think democracy is merely casting votes.
Yet the definition you provide talks about exercising power with votes.
You are missing something.
Hmm, I can't imagine why you think you are onto something important here.
If you feel its necessary to qualify, I agree that Democracy is government by people voting, then counting the votes, and the most votes wins.
I think humans understand the rest of this is implied when you say "Democracy means people vote".
People voted in Saddam Hussein's Iraq.
He always did well.
Just voting is meaningless and it is not democracy.
Yes, yes - didn't you see where I granted that it implies they count the votes and the most votes wins?
I bolded it and everything.
Do you have a point other than being insufferably pedantic?
I can add they correctly and accurately count the votes. I can add that people vote freely without coercion.
I just don't see the point in belaboring something no one actually disagrees about and is generally presumed by human beings when someone says in the context of a political discussion "Democracy is people voting".
If you don't count the votes and make decisions accordingly, then you don't have government by people voting.
untermensche
Contributor
The always counted the votes and Saddam Hussein always got the most.
Just voting is not democracy.
Not close.
Just voting is not democracy.
Not close.
The always counted the votes and Saddam Hussein always got the most.
Just voting is not democracy.
Not close.
Time to hit the reset button. You’re stuck in a loop again.
untermensche
Contributor
Yes.
I will consistently tell you that merely voting is not democracy.
Not close.
I will consistently tell you that merely voting is not democracy.
Not close.
Jason Harvestdancer
Contributor
Yes.
I will consistently tell you that merely voting is not democracy.
Not close.
It is only democracy when they vote the way you want. Otherwise it isn't democracy.
untermensche
Contributor
Not letting black people vote is not democracy.
Yes.
I will consistently tell you that merely voting is not democracy.
Not close.
Here’s a tip: if you want to seem more lifelike and intelligent, when people point out something is so mindnumbinly obvious it doesn’t need to be pointed out the correct human response is not to point it out 5 more tines.
The scripts need some work.
untermensche
Contributor
Here is what somebody thought would be a good lesson in democracy for Iraq.
After we so nicely handed it to them without hurting anybody but Saddam Hussein.
https://web.stanford.edu/~ldiamond/iraq/DemocracyEducation0204.htm
Thinking democracy is just voting is what a top down authoritarian wants democracy to be.
After we so nicely handed it to them without hurting anybody but Saddam Hussein.
5. What is Democracy?
Government authority flows from the people and is based upon their consent.
Democracy is a system of government in which a country’s political leaders are chosen by the people in regular, free, and fair elections. In a democracy, people have a choice between different candidates and parties who want the power to govern. The people can criticize and replace their elected leaders and representatives if they do not perform well. The people are sovereign—they are the highest authority—and government is based on the will of the people. Elected representatives at the national and local levels must listen to the people and be responsive to their needs.
https://web.stanford.edu/~ldiamond/iraq/DemocracyEducation0204.htm
Thinking democracy is just voting is what a top down authoritarian wants democracy to be.
Jason Harvestdancer
Contributor
The only way it's not authoritarian is if they vote the way you say. If they don't vote the way you say then it isn't democracy.
untermensche
Contributor
Not letting black people vote is not democracy.
It will never be democracy.
You can't see the difference between all people being allowed to freely vote and a bunch of racists keeping blacks from voting.
Your worthless opinions have been noted.
It will never be democracy.
You can't see the difference between all people being allowed to freely vote and a bunch of racists keeping blacks from voting.
Your worthless opinions have been noted.
Jason Harvestdancer
Contributor
Dang it, where's your reset button. Your programmer needs to do some work on you.
There was a vote that took place while black people had their right to vote infringed that you said was a success of Democracy. It is called the Civil Rights Act. Now you say if their right to vote is infringed it is not Democracy at all, no exceptions.
There was a vote that took place while black people had their right to vote infringed that you said was a success of Democracy. It is called the Civil Rights Act. Now you say if their right to vote is infringed it is not Democracy at all, no exceptions.