Did Black Lives Matter cost Hillary the presidency?

[Toni]

Not according to the Exit Polls which show Dems supported Clinton in the same turnout percentage and goes from just 90 to 91 in support of Cooper. Once again Independents switch to the Democrat for Governor but voted for Trump. Which I can't make any sense of.

Maybe Trump was right about rigged elections....

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

As dismal and Trausti prove my point but not in the way they intended.

Well, yeah, if your point was "I use racism as an explanation like a crutch".

We did prove that. Have you not considered you are trying to explain why people who voted for Obama did not vote for Hillary? (Tip: he's Black, she's white.)

You have to understand, dismal, something that I pointed out way back during the 2008 election.

Republicans generally vote Republican and Democrats generally vote Democrat. I understand that and you understand that, but that is not generally understood.

So in 1980, Republicans generally voted for Reagan and Democrats generally voted for Carter (both white males).
So in 1984, Republicans generally voted for Reagan and Democrats generally voted for Mondale (both white males).
So in 1988, Republicans generally voted for Bush and Democrats generally voted for Dukakis (both white males).
So in 1992, Republicans generally voted for Bush and Democrats generally voted for Clinton (both white males).
So in 1996, Republicans generally voted for Dole and Democrats generally voted for Clinton (both white males).
So in 2000, Republicans generally voted for Bush and Democrats generally voted for Gore (both white males).
So in 2004, Republicans generally voted for Bush and Democrats generally voted for Kerry (both white males).

That's why in 2008, all those Republicans who generally vote Republican because that's what Republicans do, voted against Obama based entirely on his race.
That's why in 2016, all those Republicans who generally vote Republican because that's what Republicans do, voted against Clinton based entirely on her gender.

It has nothing to do with "Republicans generally vote Republican and Democrats generally vote Democrat."

 

[laughing dog]

Well, yeah, if your point was "I use racism as an explanation like a crutch".

We did prove that. Have you not considered you are trying to explain why people who voted for Obama did not vote for Hillary? (Tip: he's Black, she's white.)

You have to understand, dismal, something that I pointed out way back during the 2008 election.

Republicans generally vote Republican and Democrats generally vote Democrat. I understand that and you understand that, but that is not generally understood.

So in 1980, Republicans generally voted for Reagan and Democrats generally voted for Carter (both white males).
So in 1984, Republicans generally voted for Reagan and Democrats generally voted for Mondale (both white males).
So in 1988, Republicans generally voted for Bush and Democrats generally voted for Dukakis (both white males).
So in 1992, Republicans generally voted for Bush and Democrats generally voted for Clinton (both white males).
So in 1996, Republicans generally voted for Dole and Democrats generally voted for Clinton (both white males).
So in 2000, Republicans generally voted for Bush and Democrats generally voted for Gore (both white males).
So in 2004, Republicans generally voted for Bush and Democrats generally voted for Kerry (both white males).

That's why in 2008, all those Republicans who generally vote Republican because that's what Republicans do, voted against Obama based entirely on his race.
That's why in 2016, all those Republicans who generally vote Republican because that's what Republicans do, voted against Clinton based entirely on her gender.

It has nothing to do with "Republicans generally vote Republican and Democrats generally vote Democrat."

If the proportion of people identifying as Republican and Democrat remain constant and the voter participation rate remains constant, then your analysis would provide a cogent explanation. Since neither condition is true, your analysis reduces to either a mindless tautology or an a faulty analysis based on faulty premises.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Let's also just pretend that Geraldine Ferraro never existed.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Also let us not forget that long before Hillary Clinton or Geraldine Ferraro there was the first woman to earn an electoral vote.

 

[skepticalbip]

..... snip .....

Once again Independents switch to the Democrat for Governor but voted for Trump. Which I can't make any sense of.

Why? I have never voted a straight ticket. Generally my ballot will be checked for some Democrats, some Republicans, some Libertarians, some Independents. Party affiliation says very little about the qualifications or personal stances of politicians. I think that you will find that this is how independents vote - by considering the candidates, not the parties. (ETA: personally, I would like to see the "D", "R", "L", "I" designation eliminated on ballots.)

If you will recall both John Kennedy and George Wallace were Democrats (well George became an independent late in his career but only because another Democrat got nominated).

 

[Derec]

As bizarre as this notion may be to you, it is entirely possible to support someone's right to protest even if you don't agree with their message.

Yes, one can support one's right to protest. That is distinct from blocking highways and other illegal tactics that are not part of the "right to protest".

Personally, I've been inconvenienced by road repair---seriously inconvenienced for weeks on end! Yet I support road repair.

We went over that already in the other thread. But just quickly again, since you did not quite get it the first time. Road work is necessary, and obviously has to happen on the road surface, making it temporarily unusable. So it's a necessary, unavoidable closure, designed to improve traffic after repairs. Furthermore, road work is generally scheduled at night or weekends, when the impact on traffic is minimized. Road work is also announced ahead so motorists can plan around it. None of these things is there with these protests: they don't have to block highways in order to protests. They block highways when the traffic volumes are high for maximum disruption.

I've been inconvenienced by marathons--and support healthy lifestyles.

Marathons or other races are scheduled when they disrupt traffic the least. Our local road race, Peachtree Road Race, a 10k, takes place in the morning of the 4th of July, when businesses are closed and downtown traffic is light. It is also well publicized in advance and everybody knows that certain roads will be closed for it. Also, the organizers of the race are paying the city to compensate it for the costs incurred.

I've been inconvenienced by Independence Day parades--and love my country and enjoy a good marching band and cheesy float.

Well good thing then that there are no impromptu parades in the middle of the interstate highway during rush hour.

I've been extremely inconvenienced by numerous blizzards and yet I bemoan global warming.

And thousands of cars idling (effective fuel economy of 0 mpg) because they are stuck in traffic is going to help the climate how exactly?

 

[Derec]

Oh and white men... *sigh*

Yeah, according to the progressives, we are the root of all evil. Totally no racism or sexism there ...

 

[Derec]

I think part of the Trump Base rise started with Trayvon Martin. #BLM just gave racist assholes a larger target to aim at in between shootings of blacks.

So according to you anybody opposed to #BLM is racist?

I did hear cops are glad Trump won.

Is it surprising given the demonization of police by the left? Obama sent three White House representatives to the funeral of Michael Brown, a thug who robbed a store and attacked a police officer before getting shot. That is sending a signal to police that Obama is not on their side. As is inviting Michael Brown's mother to the DNC convention.

 

[Derec]

What cost Hillary Clinton the election was her own hubris.

Now Derec just wants to blame shit on black people, that is what he does, but the rest of y'all should know better.

Just like with everything else, there are multiple reasons for how the election turned out. I do not deny that Hillary's hubris played a role. Why would you want to deny that #BLM played a role?

And no, I am not blaming shit on "black people" as if you were some monolithic block with no individuality. I blame it on a particular movement, one that has many white adherents as well, that do share a common ideology and members of which have engaged in highly visible actions that probably affected the result of the election.

This election was close enough that small shifts in Wisconsin (not carried by a Republican since 1984), Pennsylvania (not carried by a Republican since 1988) and Florida would have meant President Elect Clinton. When burning American cities are broadcast on TV, when businesses are looted, when a police station is blockaded for weeks, when people can't drive home because they are stuck on a highway, don't you think that affects the way these states voted?

Dondald Trump, president by the grace of these motherfuckers.

 

[Derec]

It's most likely that there was not one single factor that cost Clinton the election. Even more likely is that those that have strong negative feelings over what they see as a societal ill will assign sole blame to that issue for an election result they didn't like.

I never said "sole blame" and "single factor". But unrests due to #BLM are a major part of the story of this election I think. #BLM gave a middle finger to America and America returned the favor.

By the way, Darthmouth refused to punish #BLM activists who were harassing white students in the library and destroyed a Blue Lives Matter display.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

..... snip .....

Once again Independents switch to the Democrat for Governor but voted for Trump. Which I can't make any sense of.

Why? I have never voted a straight ticket.

And if this were just politics, I'd agree with your context free generalization. We are talking about Donald Trump. North Carolina, an incumbent Republican Governor lost in a state Trump won. I suppose maybe some Independents looked at the financial consequences of the Governor's actions, but otherwise, why would Independents support Trump for President, but Cooper for Governor?

Sure Wallace was a Democrat and so was Kennedy. But Trump is the Wallace and McCrory is like Trump.

 

[laughing dog]

What cost Hillary Clinton the election was her own hubris.

Now Derec just wants to blame shit on black people, that is what he does, but the rest of y'all should know better.

Just like with everything else, there are multiple reasons for how the election turned out. I do not deny that Hillary's hubris played a role. Why would you want to deny that #BLM played a role?

And no, I am not blaming shit on "black people" as if you were some monolithic block with no individuality. I blame it on a particular movement, one that has many white adherents as well, that do share a common ideology and members of which have engaged in highly visible actions that probably affected the result of the election.

This election was close enough that small shifts in Wisconsin (not carried by a Republican since 1984), Pennsylvania (not carried by a Republican since 1988) and Florida would have meant President Elect Clinton. When burning American cities are broadcast on TV, when businesses are looted, when a police station is blockaded for weeks, when people can't drive home because they are stuck on a highway, don't you think that affects the way these states voted?

So your thesis is that the actions of "BLMers" induced enough people in Wisconsin, Pennslyvania and Florida to either not vote or vote for Trump instead of Clinton?

 

[Toni]

Yes, one can support one's right to protest. That is distinct from blocking highways and other illegal tactics that are not part of the "right to protest".

Personally, I've been inconvenienced by road repair---seriously inconvenienced for weeks on end! Yet I support road repair.

We went over that already in the other thread. But just quickly again, since you did not quite get it the first time. Road work is necessary, and obviously has to happen on the road surface, making it temporarily unusable. So it's a necessary, unavoidable closure, designed to improve traffic after repairs. Furthermore, road work is generally scheduled at night or weekends, when the impact on traffic is minimized. Road work is also announced ahead so motorists can plan around it. None of these things is there with these protests: they don't have to block highways in order to protests. They block highways when the traffic volumes are high for maximum disruption.

I've been inconvenienced by marathons--and support healthy lifestyles.

Marathons or other races are scheduled when they disrupt traffic the least. Our local road race, Peachtree Road Race, a 10k, takes place in the morning of the 4th of July, when businesses are closed and downtown traffic is light. It is also well publicized in advance and everybody knows that certain roads will be closed for it. Also, the organizers of the race are paying the city to compensate it for the costs incurred.

I've been inconvenienced by Independence Day parades--and love my country and enjoy a good marching band and cheesy float.

Well good thing then that there are no impromptu parades in the middle of the interstate highway during rush hour.

I've been extremely inconvenienced by numerous blizzards and yet I bemoan global warming.

And thousands of cars idling (effective fuel economy of 0 mpg) because they are stuck in traffic is going to help the climate how exactly?

Unsurprisingly you believe that your personal experience with the inconveniences I describes is universal or even common. Roadwork in my area is normally carried out M-F, with much less work, if any, done on weekends. Oh, and during rush hours--definitely not reduced then. Nor are parades--our local parade is on the busiest section of the busiest street in town. Marathons are not scheduled around traffic but around people's work schedules to get the max participation.

Oh and you might consider reading up a bit on civil disobedience. You can do that, right?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Just like with everything else, there are multiple reasons for how the election turned out. I do not deny that Hillary's hubris played a role. Why would you want to deny that #BLM played a role?

And no, I am not blaming shit on "black people" as if you were some monolithic block with no individuality. I blame it on a particular movement, one that has many white adherents as well, that do share a common ideology and members of which have engaged in highly visible actions that probably affected the result of the election.

This election was close enough that small shifts in Wisconsin (not carried by a Republican since 1984), Pennsylvania (not carried by a Republican since 1988) and Florida would have meant President Elect Clinton. When burning American cities are broadcast on TV, when businesses are looted, when a police station is blockaded for weeks, when people can't drive home because they are stuck on a highway, don't you think that affects the way these states voted?

So your thesis is that the actions of "BLMers" induced enough people in Wisconsin, Pennslyvania and Florida to either not vote or vote for Trump instead of Clinton?

I think for some people, blacks not knowing their place was a reason. From Martin to Gray, some whites were angry that blacks wanted justice.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Just like with everything else, there are multiple reasons for how the election turned out. I do not deny that Hillary's hubris played a role. Why would you want to deny that #BLM played a role?

And no, I am not blaming shit on "black people" as if you were some monolithic block with no individuality. I blame it on a particular movement, one that has many white adherents as well, that do share a common ideology and members of which have engaged in highly visible actions that probably affected the result of the election.

This election was close enough that small shifts in Wisconsin (not carried by a Republican since 1984), Pennsylvania (not carried by a Republican since 1988) and Florida would have meant President Elect Clinton. When burning American cities are broadcast on TV, when businesses are looted, when a police station is blockaded for weeks, when people can't drive home because they are stuck on a highway, don't you think that affects the way these states voted?

So your thesis is that the actions of "BLMers" induced enough people in Wisconsin, Pennslyvania and Florida to either not vote or vote for Trump instead of Clinton?

No, it is his thesis that black people are the source of all evil in the world and he has a picture from Breitbart to prove it.

 

[Derec]

Unsurprisingly you believe that your personal experience with the inconveniences I describes is universal or even common. Roadwork in my area is normally carried out M-F, with much less work, if any, done on weekends. Oh, and during rush hours--definitely not reduced then.

At least the roadwork on interstates (and we are primarily talking about radicals taking over interstates for protest, remember?) around here is done at night as much as possible, when traffic volumes are much lower and one can close a couple of lanes without disturbing traffic too much. They use these very bright floodlights that make the work site as bright as daylight. I thought it's done like that elsewhere as well - it would certainly make sense. But perhaps the Georgia DOT is just smarter than DOTers up where you live.
But even when it has to be done during daytime and lanes have to be closed for days (thus severely impacting traffic) the difference between road work and protesters blocking highways is like between a surgery and stabbing. A surgeon (like a stabbist) cuts into your abdomen, but he does it in order to repair some damage and the cutting is necessary to the process, while a stabbist merely wants to damage you. A surgeon uses sterile and sharp implement to minimize damage, while a stabbist would use any knife available and might even twist it to increase damage.
Yes, both cause damage and pain and inconvenience but they are as far removed as road work and protesters blocking a highway just because they don't agree with something (like a police officer shooting a thug in self defense not getting indicted).

Nor are parades--our local parade is on the busiest section of the busiest street in town.

But not the middle of the interstate or other vehicle-only highway, right? And what day is your local parade held on?

Marathons are not scheduled around traffic but around people's work schedules to get the max participation.

Which means weekends or holidays when traffic is also lighter. Peachtree Road Race is on 4th of July, NYC Marathon is on Sundays and the Boston Marathon is held on Patriots' Day, which is a holiday in Massachusetts. And none of them are held on interstate highways. And the organizers pay the city.

Oh and you might consider reading up a bit on civil disobedience. You can do that, right?

What in particular would you like me to read up on? How being angry about something (policing or Trump election or a pipeline now, but why not also abortion or gay marriage or election of President [Democrat TBD later] in 2020?) entitles you to break the law and piss everybody around you off?

 

[Derec]

No, it is his thesis that black people are the source of all evil in the world

Who said anything of that nature? In fact, I said the opposite. Yet you hold to your simplistic prejudice of my views.

and he has a picture from Breitbart to prove it.

It's called Google image search. Where the image (not Breitbart btw.) is hosted is irrelevant. Or do you think the photo was staged and the Baltimore riots are just a figment of my imagination?
Man, 20, sentenced to 15 years for arson amid Baltimore rioting
I guess not a figment after all.

- - - Updated - - -

I think for some people, blacks not knowing their place was a reason. From Martin to Gray, some whites were angry that blacks wanted justice.

Wanting justice is fine. Thinking that "justice" means police getting prosecuted and convicted no matter the facts or circumstances is the problem. Blindly taking the side of a black criminal just because he is black is the problem.

 

[Elixir]

Wanting justice is fine. Thinking that "justice" means police getting prosecuted and convicted no matter the facts or circumstances is the problem.

Some monster problem you've identified there, Derec.

"...the number of police officers who were convicted on murder or manslaughter charges last year for fatally shooting a civilian in the line of duty.
In 2015, that number was zero. And that’s not unusual. No officers were convicted on such charges in 2014 either."
SOURCE

Maybe you'd best not worry your little head about it too much. Ya think?

 

[Nice Squirrel]

By the way, Darthmouth refused to punish #BLM activists who were harassing white students in the library and destroyed a Blue Lives Matter display.

Oh my NO! Thems Blacks were exercising political speech. We can't have them participating in an open discussion. They should have been beaten by the Campus Police and expelled and then suspended!