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Did United Airlines have any other choice than to eject that passenger?

Bottom line. If they say get out. You gotta get out. That's a fact. Not an opinion.

SLD
WRONG!

Picky picky... so, he should have said "Bottom line. If they say get out. You gonna get out."
Never mind that they might beat you to a bloody pulp while you're being "gotten out"... it's their plane; just be thankful they didn't give you a ride into the side of a mountain.
 
Bulshit.
We did not review the actions of the security officers of the Chicago Department of Aviation because it is not DOT's role to investigate police conduct.
And furthermore they did not say anything about wether they could have continues to stay on the plane.

They only reviewed wether this was an act of discrimination and wether they got repaid the correct sum.

United's position that day just gets worse with every new piece of information:

one passenger offered to give up her seat for compensation following the initial request from a United agent for Drs. David and Teresa Dao to deplane the aircraft.

So someone else volunteered to give up her seat compensation in place of Dr. Dao, yet United went ahead with having the faux-cops violently remove him. Wow!
 
You haven't answered my question.
Because it is irrelevant to the discussion.
Why don't airlines get volunteers every single time they have to bump someone?
Probably because they can get away with it. But that does not address the situation where they cannot. Duh.

Sometimes people get away with armed robbery too. That doesn't make it moral or lawful.

Airlines get away with a lot of shit that probably isn't lawful, but that is now routine, and that they expect nobody will call them on - the effort and expense of complaining just isn't worthwhile for any individual passenger, and a class-action would be very difficult to organize.

They expect to be treated as a dictatorial authority, and to be allowed to get away with a lot of really scummy behaviours - and largely they do get away with these behaviours, because they deliberately avoid letting the passengers interact directly with the decision makers.

You have some poor underpaid clerk whose job is to be yelled at by angry passengers who just got bumped, who has no authority or ability to do anything practical to help those people; And then you have the executives who decide to deliberately overbook to get every last drop of profit out of the system, and who write the policies, but who never see a passenger (or at least, not a passenger who knows who they are).

This was the fundamental error made by UA - They had nobody 'on the ground' with sufficient authority to change anything, so when the situation developed outside the presumptions that went into their policy documents, there was no solution that their staff were authorized to implement. There was one perfectly good option - offer more money until someone chose to take it in exchange for their seat - but the staff on the ground were explicitly prohibited from implementing that option, by a policy whose author was not available. That's UA's fault. They engineered a situation where the good (but expensive) solution was not possible, because they were terrified that if they allowed their staff to spend corporate money without a very low limit, that they would be ripped off by their own staff.

They deliberately blocked that 'safety valve', and when the situation reached an impasse, their staff had no options left that were not going to ultimately cause a far worse final result - and so it came to pass.

This was a situation that was inevitably going to lead to disaster for UA; But they were perfectly happy as long as that disaster hadn't happened yet.

The moral of the story is that you must always have someone available who has both the authority, and the ability, to make hard decisions in real situations. Such people are expensive - but they are essential for ANY organization; To operate without them (as most large corporations do) is to set yourself up for a disaster - maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon. The people who inhabit the boardrooms are very keen to make sure that someone else is sitting in the hot-seat when the music stops, of course; That's MUCH easier (and more lucrative) than fixing the problem.
 
FTFY

Just don't be nice to me, I bruise easily.

Except it was law enforcement who did it. Same way if I called the cops for someone on my property I told to leave and didn't. They are the ones who have to decide how to remove someone.

And when that "someone" shows the police officer the lease YOU signed, and the receipt YOU gave "someone" for the money they paid you for the right to be on your property, the police officer will rightly tell YOU that they will NOT remove "someone" and advise YOU to call your lawyer if you want to pursue it through civil court.
 
Bulshit.

And furthermore they did not say anything about wether they could have continues to stay on the plane.

They only reviewed wether this was an act of discrimination and wether they got repaid the correct sum.

United's position that day just gets worse with every new piece of information:

one passenger offered to give up her seat for compensation following the initial request from a United agent for Drs. David and Teresa Dao to deplane the aircraft.

So someone else volunteered to give up her seat compensation in place of Dr. Dao, yet United went ahead with having the faux-cops violently remove him. Wow!

That's authoritarians for you - they dare not allow their authority to be questioned, so once they have made a decision, no new information can be allowed to change that decision, lest they appear weak.
 
The problem is that you are expecting proof beyond a shadow of a doubt. That's an unreasonable standard in a civil case.

No. I am expecting you and CA to stop inserting your unsubstantiated opinions in place of facts when you are trying to justify a violent assault on an innocent passenger.

And since it is abundantly clear that neither of you have any actual facts on this point, you need to stop bringing it up

1) He has shown what the flight has to be, and thus the timeline.

2) I have been pointing out the crew rest rules that are what is causing the problem--all your "solutions" are way too slow.
 
Just so we are 100% clear - multiple people have already noted that the opinions of ColoradoAtheist and Loren are NOT facts... no matter how many times they repeat the same nonsense.

The lack of response to yet more of their unsupported opinions is not an indication of abdication... just bored with the nonsense.

We are actually trying to analyze the situation rather than bible-thump. (And that's the right word. You're going on the unsupported assumption that since United had the power they have to be in the wrong. The only thing resembling a fact from your side is that one legal opinion--that neglects the fact that the airlines consider "boarding" to be the whole process, not a set of independent actions.)

Since we don't have access to tools like discovery we can't prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt and you're using that to claim we are wrong. Your argument sounds about like the creationists with their god-of-the-gaps arguments.
 
Please provide a link to where you got this information unless it was from a male bovine, in which case we'll just call it bullshit and move on.

Ever flown? Paid any attention to what they actually say?

And what is the airline supposed to do when there's a IT snafu and two people are issued boarding passes for the same seat?

They're supposed to realize it at the gate and solve the issue before boarding both of them.

Reality: Something goes wrong in the process of moving somebody into another seat. The first seat is released, and then issued to someone else. It's bound to happen sometimes.

Passengers can be bumped from a flight prior to boarding. No one disputes this! The airlines are required by federal regulations to provide compensation to those passengers. But an already boarded passenger cannot be removed from an aircraft except under specific conditions. The airline's staffing needs is/was not one of those conditions.

Reality: There are various situations that can occur on the airplane that cause someone to be removed. Take one that happens occasionally locally and provokes outrage: We're sorry, you have to be removed from the flight due to weather. (Compensation: None--they just get put on another plane.) People don't understand this, especially since when they look outside it's sunny without a cloud to be seen. (It's quite legitimate. The "weather" that's causing the problem is heat. The warmer it gets the longer the takeoff roll. If it gets hot enough they don't have enough runway and have to lighten the plane.)

Dr. Dao was not acting belligerent or throwing a temper tantrum. He was within his rights as a consumer of airline services to remain in his seat following boarding, and was calmly talking to his lawyer when the security guard got violent.

What I'm talking about is his behavior when they attempted to remove him, not his behavior while sitting.

So you agree he was not being belligerent before the security guard grabbed him and dragged him out of his seat. I'm glad we finally got that straightened out.

And the cops didn't hurt him in dragging him out of his seat, either. He's not the first to be dragged off a plane, he's not the last. Only this time he responded to being dragged by throwing a temper tantrum.
 
Here is the Department of Transportations response to the United incident. They had no problem with it being called involuntary denial of boarding and they did not have a problem with them removing him from the flight after they boarded. The problem that they had with United as that they didn't provide Dr Dao a written statement about being IDBed at the time when he was going to the hospital. The DOT said that United needed to pay those 4 passengers the oversold rate.


https://www.transportation.gov/sites/dot.gov/files/docs/resources/individuals/aviation-consumer-protection/285521/dot-letter-united.pdf

And I'm not going to fault them for not providing the paperwork they didn't really have a chance to provide.
 
Bulshit.
We did not review the actions of the security officers of the Chicago Department of Aviation because it is not DOT's role to investigate police conduct.
And furthermore they did not say anything about wether they could have continues to stay on the plane.

They only reviewed wether this was an act of discrimination and wether they got repaid the correct sum.

Read it again. It's obvious that the DOT considers this to be an involuntary denied boarding, they were looking at whether there were any irregularities in following the IDB rules.
 
No. I am expecting you and CA to stop inserting your unsubstantiated opinions in place of facts when you are trying to justify a violent assault on an innocent passenger.

And since it is abundantly clear that neither of you have any actual facts on this point, you need to stop bringing it up

1) He has shown what the flight has to be, and thus the timeline.

2) I have been pointing out the crew rest rules that are what is causing the problem--all your "solutions" are way too slow.

Neither of you have presented anything remotely approaching factual evidence, and I have not offered "solutions" to your strawmen. :rolleyes:
 
United's fuck up was trying to be nice and get people onto the plane so the could board and be off on time
Republic Airlines: The pilot needed to come out and take control of the situation too
Law Enforcement: Having the armrest down on the other side and not deboarding the plane
Passenger: Not leaving

How was not leaving the passenger's fuck up? He was on the phone with his lawyer checking to see if he was being given a legal order before deciding whether or not to comply with it. Since it turns out that he was not being given a legal order, he was right to double check.

The piece of the government that oversees this is the Department of Transportation. They had no problem with the order. I think that means a lot more than some talking hat lawyer that spoke without understanding the legal situation.
 
Just so we are 100% clear - multiple people have already noted that the opinions of ColoradoAtheist and Loren are NOT facts... no matter how many times they repeat the same nonsense.

The lack of response to yet more of their unsupported opinions is not an indication of abdication... just bored with the nonsense.

We are actually trying to analyze the situation rather than bible-thump. (And that's the right word. <snip>.

The only bible-thumpers here are the self-proclaimed Libertarians thumping for corporate rights superseding a human being's right not to be violently attacked.
 
Except it was law enforcement who did it. Same way if I called the cops for someone on my property I told to leave and didn't. They are the ones who have to decide how to remove someone.

And when that "someone" shows the police officer the lease YOU signed, and the receipt YOU gave "someone" for the money they paid you for the right to be on your property, the police officer will rightly tell YOU that they will NOT remove "someone" and advise YOU to call your lawyer if you want to pursue it through civil court.

Did you purposely confuse terms? I would agree with you if he had a LEASE. But he did not have a LEASE, he had a license, big difference.

- - - Updated - - -

1) He has shown what the flight has to be, and thus the timeline.

2) I have been pointing out the crew rest rules that are what is causing the problem--all your "solutions" are way too slow.

Neither of you have presented anything remotely approaching factual evidence, and I have not offered "solutions" to your strawmen. :rolleyes:

Huh. United gave us where they were going and when. There was only one morning united flight and it was in the 6am hour.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
And the cops didn't hurt him in dragging him out of his seat, either. He's not the first to be dragged off a plane, he's not the last. Only this time he responded to being dragged by throwing a temper tantrum.

If someone tried to drag me out of my seat, i'd give them more than a tantrum.
 
Just so we are 100% clear - multiple people have already noted that the opinions of ColoradoAtheist and Loren are NOT facts... no matter how many times they repeat the same nonsense.

The lack of response to yet more of their unsupported opinions is not an indication of abdication... just bored with the nonsense.

We are actually trying to analyze the situation rather than bible-thump. (And that's the right word. You're going on the unsupported assumption that since United had the power they have to be in the wrong. The only thing resembling a fact from your side is that one legal opinion

There was more than one, and links to them were provided more than once.

Jeebus, Loren, do you ever read links or do you just guess what they say and go with whatever apologetic you can cook up on the spot? I am not going to keep posting links you refuse to read.

--that neglects the fact that the airlines consider "boarding" to be the whole process, not a set of independent actions.)

You didn't provide supporting evidence for this claim but don't bother. The 'boarding process' is the process of each individual passenger leaving the terminal and entering the aircraft. Determining if a passenger has boarded depends on whether they've stepped onto an aircraft, not whether anyone else has. If the process is interrupted and not all ticketed passengers actually make it on board, that doesn't affect the status of the passengers already in their seats.

Personal anecdote to illustrate the point in HIDE tags so people can skip right over it if they'd like:



I was once in an airport about to board a plane when a security alert sounded and everyone was ordered to leave the building. I was fourth in line to have my boarding pass scanned and I was hoping to get on the aircraft and leave that way, but no such luck. I had to leave the gate and go out the front of the terminal. We were there standing around for over an hour before we were given transport to a different building. One of the people standing outside near me was a teenager who'd been a few places ahead of me in line. Turns out, his parents had stepped onto the aircraft but he was still in the jetway when the alert happened. His parents remained on the aircraft (I assume they wanted to come back to be with him but the airline probably couldn't send boarded passengers back up the jetway) while he was sent outside with the rest of us who'd been denied boarding. The plane took off without him about 30 minutes later.



Now, if you have evidence that first-in-line passengers are not considered to have boarded an aircraft until all passengers are on board, I'd like to see it.
 
Just so we are 100% clear - multiple people have already noted that the opinions of ColoradoAtheist and Loren are NOT facts... no matter how many times they repeat the same nonsense.

The lack of response to yet more of their unsupported opinions is not an indication of abdication... just bored with the nonsense.

We are actually trying to analyze the situation rather than bible-thump. (And that's the right word. You're going on the unsupported assumption that since United had the power they have to be in the wrong.
You are going on the unsupported assumption that since United had the power they have to be in the right - which is textbook bible thumping.
 
Bulshit.

And furthermore they did not say anything about wether they could have continues to stay on the plane.

They only reviewed wether this was an act of discrimination and wether they got repaid the correct sum.

Read it again. It's obvious that the DOT considers this to be an involuntary denied boarding, they were looking at whether there were any irregularities in following the IDB rules.
”Obvious”? Do you really want to join club untermensche? How about provide some actual arguments based on the actual text as a decent person would do?
I have already shown that this document does not cover the act of actual forcing out of the passengers.
And that it explicitly states that united did not do what they should to let these people stay on the plane.
 
Bulshit.

And furthermore they did not say anything about wether they could have continues to stay on the plane.

They only reviewed wether this was an act of discrimination and wether they got repaid the correct sum.

Not bullshit. The DoT's job is to evaluate the rights being violated by the airlines on certain cases. Rightfully, they saw the incident just as a normal involuntary boarding. They could have said United violated his rights by trying to remove his ticket after boarding and that United wrongfully used Involuntary Boarding. But they didn't.

- - - Updated - - -

The concept of basic customer relations/good will would suggest the best course to take is offer a large enough incentive so that someone is likely to take the offer and vacate their seat feeling satisfied with the deal, resulting in a happy customer and a vacant seat for the airline to use. Both parties benefit without violence or ill will.


But that doesn't apply everywhere. If you get a bad meal at a restaurant they can say I'm sorry, they can comp the meal, or offer some extras but they don't have to give the customer more and more money until they say they had a good experience. At some point a business can say no more and lose a customer. How about customers learning some empty.

The restaurant can't forcedly remove a meal that you have paid for and is on the table and you are about to begin eating because they want to give your meal to one of their staff who has need of a meal. It's not only rude, not only poor business practice, but an assault. Compensation prior to any action has to be offered by management and accepted by the customer.
 
Here's another article on the legality of the airline's actions, written by an Associate Dean and Professor of Law at Cornell Law School. It first appeared back in April and it addresses almost all of the arguments that have been presented in this thread: Why United Was Legally Wrong to Deplane David Dao

Most articles and news reports have implied that the airline was permitted to remove Dao from the airplane. Articles have made this claim as part of a larger point to readers: Airlines frequently overbook their flights and “bump” passengers, and then pay them compensation in line with federal regulations governing the payment of this compensation.

It happens all the time, according to the newspapers.

This overarching narrative—repeated in virtually every newspaper, with only a few exceptions—is incorrect at least as applied to this situation. Or, at the very least, it is far more complicated than the news reports suggest.

In truth, airlines do indeed “bump” passengers from oversold flights, but the process by which they do so is to “deny boarding” to ticketed passengers who have otherwise complied with the boarding requirements. However, Dao was not denied boarding. Dao was granted boarding, and then subsequently involuntarily deplaned, which is not the same thing.

To understand the difference, it is important to review the facts of the case. This summary is drawn from press reports in major newspapers.

It then goes on to talk about boarding, the boarding process, the conditions under which an already boarded passenger may be removed from the aircraft, the fact the flight wasn't oversold, that the four people needing accommodation weren't ticketed passengers, and more.
 
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