Discussion of Ashli Babbit death on J6 (split)

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

It is kind of silly to discuss arms in this particular instance because the sheer number of Q-inspired insurrectionists storming the Capitol were such a threat that individual scattered police had ceded control and could do nothing. That is the reason there were 1 or 2 police on the Ashli side of the door to begin with. But, additionally, many of the insurrectionists did actually have arms, not just a Confederate flag or an American flag used to beat people either. And the insurrectionists were screaming to hang Mike Pence and wanted to kill Pelosi and others. The motivations of Ashli Babbit can be observed from her social media account--she was there FOR insurrection. The environment immediately around Ashli Babbit was one in which defenders of the government had to keep retreating from her and/or insurrectionists closest to her. The timing of what happened around the Ashli Babbit shooting was that this was the last barricade before insurrections could murder the people they said they wanted to murder. The thinking of the police defending the government officials was one of probably initially respecting free speech from far away but as the crazy people got closer and closer and made it through one barrier after another, it became a thing where the last barrier is more like a military fort and the job becomes more like soldiers defending that fort from assailants coming in to murder the government. Right then, the insurrectionists broke the windows of the door. Two police, no soldiers at this point, wanted to hold the fort from the insurrectionists. Ashli Babbit was not there to innocently look through the window and say "Hi" like conservolibertarians try to disingenuously argue...she was scoping out the defense and was going to breach the last barrier if it seemed either safe or that the guards had given up. It is unfortunate that her life is no more--but that is the fault of the people who brainwashed her...and the last thoughts of the guards was that they had to stop insurrectionists from entering to murder the government. If she breached it and they allowed it to happen, everyone else would come through. If they used other weapons exposing themselves and bodies to the insurrectionist crowd, they were in danger of significant bodily harm, which is why they stayed around the corner and waved weapons to keep reasonably minded people away. Ashli Babbit was no such reasonable person--she made a mistake based on risk, thinking no one would shoot her and that her insurrectionist Reich wing comrades would quickly follow. Again, the fault of her death lies squarely with the people who brainwashed her. Conservolibertarians and other assorted Qarens who are still arguing over these details are only doing it because deep in their hearts there is denial and blood on their own hands for participating in that irrational, insane nonsense ideology.

 

[Toni]

Somehow, I had not been aware that this had been split off.

I wonder what people think would have happened if the insurrectionists had succeeded in breaking through the barrier? How many government officials and how many police officers and other LEO might have been killed? Would Mike Pence still be alive? Would Pelosi?

I'm afraid that I think there are those on this board for whom that would be a fine thing.

 

[Elixir]

Somehow, I had not been aware that this had been split off.

I wonder what people think would have happened if the insurrectionists had succeeded in breaking through the barrier? How many government officials and how many police officers and other LEO might have been killed? Would Mike Pence still be alive? Would Pelosi?

I'm afraid that I think there are those on this board for whom that would be a fine thing.

Not surprising. When I see Don2 musing that "It is unfortunate that her life is no more" I have to admit thinking "No, it's not; she was a traitor and a danger to America". I'm not inclined to violence myself, but don't pretend to be immune to the impulse. So it would not surprise me in the least if some of our right wing extremist Believers might approve of deadly force against those they perceive as traitors and dangerous to America. Like Nancy, and cowardly Mike who "failed to do the right thing" (as Agent Orange encourages them to recite.)

This is why I think it would be better to get the bloodshed over with. Jail the MFs who attacked the capitol, arrest the elected officials who incited, aided and abetted them and use deadly force without hesitation against anyone threatening or using violence to protest those arrests.

 

[Bronzeage]

Somehow, I had not been aware that this had been split off.

I wonder what people think would have happened if the insurrectionists had succeeded in breaking through the barrier? How many government officials and how many police officers and other LEO might have been killed? Would Mike Pence still be alive? Would Pelosi?

I'm afraid that I think there are those on this board for whom that would be a fine thing.

Fortunately, the people who stormed the Capitol had no end game. Their plan, if it can be called that was to create enough turmoil to compel the President to declare martial law, and then the military would take over the process. Pence and Pelosi were be safe for the time being because of the concentration of armed security that surrounded them.

As for Ashli Babbit, she did not realize something of which Black Lives Matter and Antifa protesters are well aware. The police will shoot you.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Somehow, I had not been aware that this had been split off.

I wonder what people think would have happened if the insurrectionists had succeeded in breaking through the barrier? How many government officials and how many police officers and other LEO might have been killed? Would Mike Pence still be alive? Would Pelosi?

I'm afraid that I think there are those on this board for whom that would be a fine thing.

Fortunately, the people who stormed the Capitol had no end game. Their plan, if it can be called that was to create enough turmoil to compel the President to declare martial law, and then the military would take over the process. Pence and Pelosi were be safe for the time being because of the concentration of armed security that surrounded them.

As for Ashli Babbit, she did not realize something of which Black Lives Matter and Antifa protesters are well aware. The police will shoot you.

Yea, the people doing the storming were tools. But I think that the evidence will show that the planners and instigators (Trump and other republican officials) wanted the results of the electoral college to be nullified, and the ultimate vote for the president to be thrown to the individual state legislators, which is majority controlled by the republicans. Trump and his ilk want the right to decide to how elections should be decided AFTER THE VOTE in order to ensure their power.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Trump and his ilk want the right to decide to how elections should be decided AFTER independent of THE VOTE in order to ensure their power.

Probably more accurate.

 

[ideologyhunter]

When a mob can smash windows and door jambs to break into the Capitol while the 'peaceful transfer of power' is being finalized -- and the intent of the mob is to stop the process and lynch the Vice President et al. -- you tell me how robust democracy is. Trump is STILL at it, which means we could see more of this Republican criminality. If Ashli and a few other fanatics had been shot down before they broke in, it might have staved off the break-in. But that would've required more manpower than law enforcement had on the scene. Next time, I hope the maniacs face reality sooner. Ashli was a criminal. Trump is a criminal ("I need you to find me 11,000 votes"...) The stakes are too high to allow this fanaticism to continue.

 

[Elixir]

When a mob can smash windows and door jambs to break into the Capitol while the 'peaceful transfer of power' is being finalized -- and the intent of the mob is to stop the process and lynch the Vice President et al. -- you tell me how robust democracy is. Trump is STILL at it, which means we could see more of this Republican criminality. If Ashli and a few other fanatics had been shot down before they broke in, it might have staved off the break-in. But that would've required more manpower than law enforcement had on the scene. Next time, I hope the maniacs face reality sooner. Ashli was a criminal. Trump is a criminal ("I need you to find me 11,000 votes"...) The stakes are too high to allow this fanaticism to continue.

"Next time, I hope the maniacs face reality sooner."
Right. More important, we have to make sure their puppetmasters are forced to pay for their treason before the next confrontation, in order to minimize bloodshed when it happens.

 

[Toni]

Somehow, I had not been aware that this had been split off.

I wonder what people think would have happened if the insurrectionists had succeeded in breaking through the barrier? How many government officials and how many police officers and other LEO might have been killed? Would Mike Pence still be alive? Would Pelosi?

I'm afraid that I think there are those on this board for whom that would be a fine thing.

Fortunately, the people who stormed the Capitol had no end game. Their plan, if it can be called that was to create enough turmoil to compel the President to declare martial law, and then the military would take over the process. Pence and Pelosi were be safe for the time being because of the concentration of armed security that surrounded them.

As for Ashli Babbit, she did not realize something of which Black Lives Matter and Antifa protesters are well aware. The police will shoot you.

That's an excellent point. It is understandable that there has been so much attention given to law enforcement killings of black people, it really is a problem for people of all colors. I think it is definitely time that police shootings of white people get much more prominent national news coverage. As sad as it is to write, too many people won't recognize the need for change unless and until they can see faces that look enough like theirs on the victims.

 

[Shadowy Man]

If Ashli and a few other fanatics had been shot down before they broke in, it might have staved off the break-in. But that would've required more manpower than law enforcement had on the scene.

Would it have though? If the police began firing on the crowd prior to their incursion of the Capitol, how many do you think would have continued attempting to break in? I think much of the crowd were just regular people swept up by the emotions and actions of a few who had lead the charge. When guns start going off and bodies start dropping, most people run away. The few diehards left with their body armor and helmets could then perhaps have been handled more easily by the forces at hand. And also, it is likely that reinforcements would have had to have come sooner once a true firefight began.

 

[Toni]

If Ashli and a few other fanatics had been shot down before they broke in, it might have staved off the break-in. But that would've required more manpower than law enforcement had on the scene.

Would it have though? If the police began firing on the crowd prior to their incursion of the Capitol, how many do you think would have continued attempting to break in? I think much of the crowd were just regular people swept up by the emotions and actions of a few who had lead the charge. When guns start going off and bodies start dropping, most people run away. The few diehards left with their body armor and helmets could then perhaps have been handled more easily by the forces at hand. And also, it is likely that reinforcements would have had to have come sooner once a true firefight began.

I agree with ideologyhunter. It appears that there has been no good public explanation for exactly why there was so little LEO at the Capitol that day and why help was so delayed. AND it appears that some of the Capitol police on site were cooperative with the insurgents.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If Ashli and a few other fanatics had been shot down before they broke in, it might have staved off the break-in. But that would've required more manpower than law enforcement had on the scene.

Would it have though? If the police began firing on the crowd prior to their incursion of the Capitol, how many do you think would have continued attempting to break in? I think much of the crowd were just regular people swept up by the emotions and actions of a few who had lead the charge. When guns start going off and bodies start dropping, most people run away. The few diehards left with their body armor and helmets could then perhaps have been handled more easily by the forces at hand. And also, it is likely that reinforcements would have had to have come sooner once a true firefight began.

I agree with ideologyhunter. It appears that there has been no good public explanation for exactly why there was so little LEO at the Capitol that day and why help was so delayed. AND it appears that some of the Capitol police on site were cooperative with the insurgents.

I think the threat was underestimated, and that was due to a lack of an insurrection before like this, so fewer LEO there.

That some of the officers were sympathetic was definitely a problem.

Delay in help, that was the Trump Admin trying to get Congress killed. I mean seriously.

DC Police: We need reinforcements. Congress has evacuated and are in lockdown..
Reinforcements: We are worried about what message reinforcing you guys would give.
DC Police: WHAT?! Congress is in lockdown!

A half-assed coup because they couldn't get enough support within the military to keep them in power.

 

[Shadowy Man]

If Ashli and a few other fanatics had been shot down before they broke in, it might have staved off the break-in. But that would've required more manpower than law enforcement had on the scene.

Would it have though? If the police began firing on the crowd prior to their incursion of the Capitol, how many do you think would have continued attempting to break in? I think much of the crowd were just regular people swept up by the emotions and actions of a few who had lead the charge. When guns start going off and bodies start dropping, most people run away. The few diehards left with their body armor and helmets could then perhaps have been handled more easily by the forces at hand. And also, it is likely that reinforcements would have had to have come sooner once a true firefight began.

I agree with ideologyhunter. It appears that there has been no good public explanation for exactly why there was so little LEO at the Capitol that day and why help was so delayed. AND it appears that some of the Capitol police on site were cooperative with the insurgents.

Those are different issues than the one I was addressing.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If Ashli and a few other fanatics had been shot down before they broke in, it might have staved off the break-in. But that would've required more manpower than law enforcement had on the scene.

Would it have though? If the police began firing on the crowd prior to their incursion of the Capitol, how many do you think would have continued attempting to break in? I think much of the crowd were just regular people swept up by the emotions and actions of a few who had lead the charge. When guns start going off and bodies start dropping, most people run away.

Hard to tell. Babbit was shot in an area where mobbing the police was not quite possible. Man, that door was very secure! But in cases where mobbing was possible such as the officer being backed up the stairs, shooting might not have worked as well.

What seems incredible is that while security outside the Capitol was not sufficient for that crowd size, the security inside the Capitol appeared to be non-existent, except the people with the guns protecting the immediate perimeter of those in Congress. The choke points for entry into the building should have been easy enough to defend.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yea, the people doing the storming were tools. But I think that the evidence will show that the planners and instigators (Trump and other republican officials) wanted the results of the electoral college to be nullified, and the ultimate vote for the president to be thrown to the individual state legislators, which is majority controlled by the republicans. Trump and his ilk want the right to decide to how elections should be decided AFTER THE VOTE in order to ensure their power.

This. A coup-light. We are very lucky they weren't organized enough to do it right. I have been predicting a coup from the right for a long time now and people kept calling me nuts.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Yea, the people doing the storming were tools. But I think that the evidence will show that the planners and instigators (Trump and other republican officials) wanted the results of the electoral college to be nullified, and the ultimate vote for the president to be thrown to the individual state legislators, which is majority controlled by the republicans. Trump and his ilk want the right to decide to how elections should be decided AFTER THE VOTE in order to ensure their power.

This. A coup-light. We are very lucky they weren't organized enough to do it right. I have been predicting a coup from the right for a long time now and people kept calling me nuts.

That wasn't a coup. The whole thing is the coup. That was a small part of it. They'll win eventually.

 

[Swammerdami]

She wasn’t a physical threat to anyone. And you should know by now that none of the J6 defendants have been charged with insurrection, or treason, because there’s no evidence of that. Yet, you’re okay killing her because you disagree with her politically.

Wrong and wrong again.

The insurrectionists murdered one cop and attempted to murder others. A getaway-car driver can be charged with a murder not committed in his presence, can be charged even if he didn't know his colleagues were carrying guns. All of the J6 traitors could be charged as accomplices to murder and attempted murder.

A whinge I've heard from pro-treason QOPsters is that cops should have backed away from their attackers rather than confronting them. Does this make sense? Do white cops back away when a black suspect brandishes a ... cell-phone? No, they pull out their guns and fire at center-of-mass. Yet the same ilk that applauds those killings thinks the Capitol Police should not have held their shields up to protect the people they were sworn to protect? Please!! What disgusting hypocrisy.

These heroes showed great restraint. Had the insurrectionists been black or antifas the Capitol floors would have been awash in blood.


And the gibberish about "not charged with insurrection" shows colossal ignorance.

Al Capone was a mass murderer but was charged only with tax evasion. Donald Trump committed several treasons but in his first impeachment was charged only with a political phone call. Prosecutors charge based on convenience and other criteria. There are many charges short of "insurrection" that apply to the J6 traitors and have long prison terms; the shame is that prosecutors haven't even made those charges, NOT that they've avoided a pointless bugaboo in not charging "insurrection." Trausti doesn't even understand that much? Where did he learn law? By watching Judge Judy?

 

[Elixir]

What disgusting hypocrisy.

Agreed; disgusting, but not unexpected.

Had the insurrectionists been black or antifas the Capitol floors would have been awash in blood.

And that would have been right, as would a lethal response to the very first attempt at forceful entry to the capitol by the trumpsucking mob. Any attempt to forcefully prevent Constitutional process should be met with lethal force IMHO.
What went "wrong" on 1/6 was that the capitol was left intentionally undefended because the people in charge wanted the insurrection to succeed in halting the peaceful transfer of power.
Of course that was the part that went "right" in the minds of Trump and his enablers; in their estimation, what went wrong was that they failed to prevent the certification of the electoral votes. The coup failed, partly because the crowd lost its nerve when the Babbit traitor was killed, and mostly because Trump is a coward who failed to go all-in as Putin had instructed him to do.

And the gibberish about "not charged with insurrection" shows colossal ignorance.

Again, disappointing but entirely to be expected.