Do we ALL have a "right to die"?

[Unknown Soldier]

Way back in the OP I asked who should be allowed to choose physician assisted suicide (PAS). Did you answer that question?

No, I came onto the thread later.

I’ll answer now:

• Everyone has the right to die.

OK. Who granted us the right to die?

• I would not expect anyone to help them (to do it peacefully and painlessly, for example,) unless they were in a severe unwanted situation with no hope of recovery. Examples of this include ALS, Parkinsons, Alzheimer’s, and brain cancer.

If a person's own morals are that she or he can never kill another person, then I think it's wrong to say she or he is obligated to kill another person.

• If a person were in a severe unwanted situation with no hope of recovery, I would expect a humane society to make it possible for them to elect and carry out a pain-free death with dignity.

How can we ever know there is no hope of recovery or that the person cannot adapt to the person's circumstances?

• I would expect that society to put in place a path that would help to protect against suicides that are coerced or for reversible reasons.

What if that doesn't work? There's a fine line between "voluntary" euthanasia and murder.

Generally, I just want the truth about this "right to die" to be understood by everybody as the dangerous lie that it is.

By making this claim you mock the pain of those who suffer from serious diseases that have no hope of recovery and no ability to alleviate symptoms short of loss of sentience.

I don't see how that follows. How is exposing a lie mocking pain? If you're so concerned about people mocking pain, then you had better have a very serious talk with the blatant ridicule that has been inflicted by some of the members here on Terri Schiavo's family, the Schindlers, because they tried to save her life.

I gave you the story in my family, and you completely ignored it. Not one word. That told me a lot.

What did it tell you? Did you consider the possibility that I was busy doing something else?

So if you don't see my point, then let me spell it out for you: For many of us, physician assisted suicide is a means by which we can rid the world of people we do not value. That's why those of us we value have no "right" to die.

You have not presented any evidence that physician assisted death with dignity has led to anyone “getting rid of unwanted people.”

That's not true. I detailed how the Terri Schiavo case is but one example of getting rid of an unwanted person while deceitfully calling it "her right to die."

So you want to stop people from having this choice, with no data to support your claim of a problem with it.

Where's your data?

Meanwhile, there is a GREAT DEAL of evidence that it has helped people in dire circumstances who elected to avoid being tortured by their disease. You have not shown any compassion to those people and the suffering they endured, and the choice they made freely and clearly. They were valued by their loved ones, but asked to not be forced to endure pain or torture. And their loved ones - valuing them - did not imprison them against their will and prevent them from their choice.

Where is that evidence? All I can think of is the Nazi T4 euthanasia program.

Your premise states that you support my mother being strapped to a chair for years while she cries out, every day, for help that no one can give. Or maybe you support them drugging her into a stupor. I’m not sure exactly what your care plan would be. She wants to die, though, not be strapped to a chair, unable to move, slowly losing her ability to eat, drink, and ultimately breathe.

I don't know if any of that is true, but I do know it differs markedly from the real-life cases of dying people I'm acquainted with. They tend to live on adapting to their circumstances remarkably well.

I don't think so. Like I said, Terri's family were in the best position to know her.

And by this claim you assert that I am in the best position to know the will of my mother -

I suppose you are, but I don't know anything about it, and I won't take your word for it.

...yet you want us to bend to YOUR decision, and you have never even met her.

But you want the world to bend to your decision while you disregard the fear of those who see it for what it is.

Sounds like you want one rule for you and a different rule for me.

Nah--I want good quality of life for everybody.

In conclusion, let me say that I just finished watching the infamous Nazi-produced film, Ich Klage An ("I Accuse" in English). This film was a propaganda tool created by the Nazis to garner support for their euthanasia program, AKTION T4 THE NAZI EUTHANASIA PROGRAMME THAT KILLED 300,000 disabled persons. If you watch the movie, you should notice that it emotionally insists that the dying be killed for very similar reasons that you and other people here propose. So how can you put faith in something that was used by the Nazis and that had such horrific consequences? Do you think it's just mere coincidence and that this time around it will be different?

 

[abaddon]

Do you think it's just mere coincidence and that this time around it will be different?

This time around? Do you think there are people who want to get rid of the disabled like how the Nazis did? And they're just waiting in the wings for their chance to slaughter lots of people?

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Do you think it's just mere coincidence and that this time around it will be different?

This time around? Do you think there are people who want to get rid of the disabled like how the Nazis did? And they're just waiting in the wings for their chance to slaughter lots of people?

Answer my question, and I will answer yours.

 

[abaddon]

Answer my question, and I will answer yours.

Yes. "This time around" will be entirely different. There's nothing in today's society that justifies the fear you're expressing.

 

[Rhea]

• Everyone has the right to die.

OK. Who granted us the right to die?

No one. We have always had the right - as humans. Sometimes people try to block that right.

• I would not expect anyone to help them (to do it peacefully and painlessly, for example,) unless they were in a severe unwanted situation with no hope of recovery. Examples of this include ALS, Parkinsons, Alzheimer’s, and brain cancer.

If a person's own morals are that she or he can never kill another person, then I think it's wrong to say she or he is obligated to kill another person.

Who ever said anyone was obligated?
We are talking about the ability to work with someone who is offering this service.

Your premise states that you support my mother being strapped to a chair for years while she cries out, every day, for help that no one can give. Or maybe you support them drugging her into a stupor. I’m not sure exactly what your care plan would be. She wants to die, though, not be strapped to a chair, unable to move, slowly losing her ability to eat, drink, and ultimately breathe.

I don't know if any of that is true, but I do know it differs markedly from the real-life cases of dying people I'm acquainted with. They tend to live on adapting to their circumstances remarkably well.

I don't think so. Like I said, Terri's family were in the best position to know her.

And by this claim you assert that I am in the best position to know the will of my mother -

I suppose you are, but I don't know anything about it, and I won't take your word for it.

Ah. Well I can see that when someone agrees with what you already think, they can be believed, but if someone has an illness that you don’t understand, you don’t trust them. Well that’s certainly - indefensible.


Well, to continue the discussion with the people in the thread who are not making contradictary statements, dismissing the agony of others and accusing others of being nazis; The list of diseases that make life into torture is sadly longer than any of us wish. I support the right of people to decide - when they know they are going to die - how they are going to die, and to carry it out with compassionate help from medical officials. No one should be made to suffocate to death, knowing it is coming and not allowed to avoid that death.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Answer my question, and I will answer yours.

Yes. "This time around" will be entirely different.

We all better hope that you're right here. I think it's foolish to take the chance that somehow the Nazi philosophy of killing the disabled will have consequences any different from the consequences it had eighty years ago.

There's nothing in today's society that justifies the fear you're expressing.

That's obviously false, or at least I think there's evidence to justify my fear. The Terri Schiavo case, for example, demonstrates that like in Germany, here in America we put the disabled to death under the pretense of compassion. And if that's not bad enough, this very thread is full of hate-filled posts attacking not only Terri but her family for trying to save her.

This time around? Do you think there are people who want to get rid of the disabled like how the Nazis did?

I know that people want to get rid of us like the Nazis did.

And they're just waiting in the wings for their chance to slaughter lots of people?

That sounds about right to me. I've learned not to be quick to trust people or to believe them especially when they claim they're doing something good for the disabled. Such claims almost always turn out to be lies.

 

[bilby]

For what it's worth (likely nothing, given the fact resistant behaviour of the OP), my support for voluntary assisted dying has nothing much to do with other people. It's entirely selfish - I want the option FOR ME.

That consistency requires that if it's available to me, it will also be available to others, is a mere side-effect. I may never take up my right to die with dignity rather than suffer; I might well be fortunate enough to die suddenly, or (relatively) painlessly. But there's no guarantee of that, and if it turns out that I am unlucky enough to suffer a drawn out and painful death, I demand my personal and individual right, as the sole arbiter of my existence, to end my own life on my own terms.

That doesn't seem to me to be something a free society ought to be able to overrule me on.

Fuck "the disabled" and "the terminally ill" and "the depressed". I'm in this for ME. If any of them should also benefit, that's just their good fortune.

But most of all, fuck the authoritarians. My life isn't yours to decide about. You no more get to force me to live against my will, without being vile, cruel and immoral monsters, than you can get to kill me against my will, without being vile, cruel and immoral monsters.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

• Everyone has the right to die.

OK. Who granted us the right to die?

No one. We have always had the right - as humans. Sometimes people try to block that right.

Then you're making up "the right to die." I can say I have the right to be a millionaire, but I can guarantee you that nobody will honor that right. Why are rights you make up any different?

But don't feel bad. We really have no rights. All rights, and not just you right to die, are fabricated and have little to do with the real world.

• I would not expect anyone to help them (to do it peacefully and painlessly, for example,) unless they were in a severe unwanted situation with no hope of recovery. Examples of this include ALS, Parkinsons, Alzheimer’s, and brain cancer.

If a person's own morals are that she or he can never kill another person, then I think it's wrong to say she or he is obligated to kill another person.

Who ever said anyone was obligated?

If people have a right to physician assisted suicide, then obviously some physician is obligated to do the killing. But even more broadly you say that you expect anybody to assist somebody who supposedly is in "a severe unwanted situation with no hope of recovery" to kill themselves.

Your premise states that you support my mother being strapped to a chair for years while she cries out, every day, for help that no one can give. Or maybe you support them drugging her into a stupor. I’m not sure exactly what your care plan would be. She wants to die, though, not be strapped to a chair, unable to move, slowly losing her ability to eat, drink, and ultimately breathe.

I don't know if any of that is true, but I do know it differs markedly from the real-life cases of dying people I'm acquainted with. They tend to live on adapting to their circumstances remarkably well.

I don't think so. Like I said, Terri's family were in the best position to know her.

And by this claim you assert that I am in the best position to know the will of my mother -

I suppose you are, but I don't know anything about it, and I won't take your word for it.

Ah. Well I can see that when someone agrees with what you already think, they can be believed, but if someone has an illness that you don’t understand, you don’t trust them. Well that’s certainly - indefensible.

Yes, some people I find to be more credible than others. If I don't believe you, then that's your problem, not mine.

Well, to continue the discussion with the people in the thread who are not making contradictary statements, dismissing the agony of others and accusing others of being nazis; The list of diseases that make life into torture is sadly longer than any of us wish. I support the right of people to decide - when they know they are going to die - how they are going to die, and to carry it out with compassionate help from medical officials. No one should be made to suffocate to death, knowing it is coming and not allowed to avoid that death.

I just heard the same reasoning used in Ich Klage An. In that movie a woman with multiple sclerosis is deemed by her doctors including her husband to be a hopeless case. Those doctors are obvious experts who know exactly what they are doing, are perfectly honest, and only want to show compassion for their patient.

Do you believe that the Nazis portrayed doctors in that film accurately?

 

[SIB]

For me, all of us have the right to choose and nobody has a right to choose is binary thinking. The tools of fundy think types. It ignores the reality of the situation.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

OK. Who granted us the right to die?

More like, how does anyone have the right to deny us permission to die?

• I would not expect anyone to help them (to do it peacefully and painlessly, for example,) unless they were in a severe unwanted situation with no hope of recovery. Examples of this include ALS, Parkinsons, Alzheimer’s, and brain cancer.

If a person's own morals are that she or he can never kill another person, then I think it's wrong to say she or he is obligated to kill another person.

You don't need everyone to be willing to do it.

How can we ever know there is no hope of recovery or that the person cannot adapt to the person's circumstances?

Most euthanasia patients are rapidly heading downhill. Why do you think there's a hope of recovery? It's usually about avoiding the last stage of life.

What if that doesn't work? There's a fine line between "voluntary" euthanasia and murder.

The line is very clear--is it what the patient wants?

Generally, I just want the truth about this "right to die" to be understood by everybody as the dangerous lie that it is.

By making this claim you mock the pain of those who suffer from serious diseases that have no hope of recovery and no ability to alleviate symptoms short of loss of sentience.

I don't see how that follows. How is exposing a lie mocking pain? If you're so concerned about people mocking pain, then you had better have a very serious talk with the blatant ridicule that has been inflicted by some of the members here on Terri Schiavo's family, the Schindlers, because they tried to save her life.

Once again, faith--you're pretending your analysis of the situation is right.

I gave you the story in my family, and you completely ignored it. Not one word. That told me a lot.

What did it tell you? Did you consider the possibility that I was busy doing something else?

You're still here in the thread.

So if you don't see my point, then let me spell it out for you: For many of us, physician assisted suicide is a means by which we can rid the world of people we do not value. That's why those of us we value have no "right" to die.

You have not presented any evidence that physician assisted death with dignity has led to anyone “getting rid of unwanted people.”

That's not true. I detailed how the Terri Schiavo case is but one example of getting rid of an unwanted person while deceitfully calling it "her right to die."

Except you never addressed the facts.

Meanwhile, there is a GREAT DEAL of evidence that it has helped people in dire circumstances who elected to avoid being tortured by their disease. You have not shown any compassion to those people and the suffering they endured, and the choice they made freely and clearly. They were valued by their loved ones, but asked to not be forced to endure pain or torture. And their loved ones - valuing them - did not imprison them against their will and prevent them from their choice.

Where is that evidence? All I can think of is the Nazi T4 euthanasia program.

We have programs in many countries. Strangely, the percent that choose that route remains quite consistent--it's obviously the people making the choice.

Your premise states that you support my mother being strapped to a chair for years while she cries out, every day, for help that no one can give. Or maybe you support them drugging her into a stupor. I’m not sure exactly what your care plan would be. She wants to die, though, not be strapped to a chair, unable to move, slowly losing her ability to eat, drink, and ultimately breathe.

I don't know if any of that is true, but I do know it differs markedly from the real-life cases of dying people I'm acquainted with. They tend to live on adapting to their circumstances remarkably well.

Note the 4% figure.

Nah--I want good quality of life for everybody.

The problem is that that's not always going to happen.

 

[TomC]

More like, how does anyone have the right to deny us permission to die?

This question has been asked more than once.

Closest thing to an answer was a reference to government authority to legally enforce the ban. As if the government has the right to enforce that, but the right to enforce T-4(whatever that is) it doesn't.
Tom

 

[Unknown Soldier]

For me, all of us have the right to choose and nobody has a right to choose is binary thinking. The tools of fundy think types. It ignores the reality of the situation.

Who's saying that?

 

[bilby]

For me, all of us have the right to choose and nobody has a right to choose is binary thinking. The tools of fundy think types. It ignores the reality of the situation.

Who's saying that?

It would appear that @SIB is saying that.

Indeed, I am now wondering how you could possibly be unaware of that.

 

[atrib]

But Tom--if you died, then you wouldn't be able to tell people to die. And then where would you be???

He would be dead. Probably 6 feet under, or turned into Ashes.

And much more importantly, Tom is NOT telling people to die. [Removed]

 

[Rhea]

Indeed, Unknown soldier seems to have a bee in his bonnet about a position no one here is espousing, while being willing to falsely accuse others of intent to harm.

He opened his thread (post #1) asking if there is a right to suicide for people who are not terminally ill. Someone who is “healthy” but despondent over a temporary emotional situation.

And before he even gets an answer to that question (still post #1), he pivots in his last paragraph to; “This means you all want to have an excuse to kill the disabled!!” This is before he even gets any answers.

So then he gets answers here about the expectation of the right when ill, and the fact that suicide is up to an individual anyway, and no, no one is trying to get rid of the disabled.

But he repsonds, (post #6) “wait! Answer my question! Can anyone at all access physician assisted suicide?”

And he gets answers: no one can force the physician to do it, and it’s already available by self to everyone. Although some places make it a crime, but why should it be?

UnkSol then dumps in (post #16) “but you are disrespecting the rights of others!! If you commit suicide, you will make someone else sad or destitute, so you should not be allowed to end your own life! So no physician should have a right to help anyone die with dignity”. He appears to jump from “healthy breadwinner is needed therefore person tortured by their disease must get no relief.” And seems to insist that it means if the right to physician assisted suicide is available that every physician MUST provide this service. Like if you have a right to have a baby every physician must be your OBGYN.

Then in Post #19 - here comes Nazi Germany. And the accusation that - “we,” I guess? - want to force death on them (the disabled).

Actually, one of the most outspoken groups opposing physician assisted suicide are the disability rights groups. It's ironic that they don't want your death for them considering that they are supposed to be the beneficiaries.

NO ONE HERE has advocated any of the following:

• Forcing people to die
• Asking people to die
• Coercing people to die
• Disrespecting disabilities
• Forcing doctors to assist in purposeful death
• Allowing dignified assisted death free of oversight or constraint

So, unknown soldier, if that is what you are arguing against, you are arguing a position that you fabricated. And every time you have railed against it, you are railing against a paranoia that does not exist and no one is asking to exist.

You have accused Tom of wanting to “tell people to die” and that is a false accusation.
You have accused, “I've seen plenty of pro-death zeal--some of it on this thread.”
You have accused, “Loud right to die support. Almost silent voices for the right to live.”


Your accusations are false. You are fabricating enemies out of people who have never ever advocated for “coercing suicide of unwanted people with disabilities.”


So UnkSol - you have a bee in your bonnet about some unknown, unnamed, nefarious force who wants to murder disabled people, some force that looks to you like Nazis.

And NO ONE is advocating any of that. And today’s laws that govern physician assisted dignified death protect against that - to the extent that terminally ill people who DO want it can’t even get it because the bar for proof is high. That’s today’s balance


But you are here accusing anyone who wants it for themselves or supports it for loved ones who have asked for it as a murderer, and saying that anyone who has indeed wanted such a thing is lying, and you don’t believe them. You seem to be operating from a one-sided, entrenched extreme position that seeks to control the lives and pain and health care decisions of others. Everyone else is arguing for each person to have their own choices - and to have all the care and help they need to access life for as long as they want it.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Indeed, Unknown soldier seems to have a bee in his bonnet about a position no one here is espousing, while being willing to falsely accuse others of intent to harm.

He opened his thread (post #1) asking if there is a right to suicide for people who are not terminally ill. Someone who is “healthy” but despondent over a temporary emotional situation.

And before he even gets an answer to that question (still post #1), he pivots in his last paragraph to; “This means you all want to have an excuse to kill the disabled!!” This is before he even gets any answers.

So then he gets answers here about the expectation of the right when ill, and the fact that suicide is up to an individual anyway, and no, no one is trying to get rid of the disabled.

But he repsonds, (post #6) “wait! Answer my question! Can anyone at all access physician assisted suicide?”

And he gets answers: no one can force the physician to do it, and it’s already available by self to everyone. Although some places make it a crime, but why should it be?

UnkSol then dumps in (post #16) “but you are disrespecting the rights of others!! If you commit suicide, you will make someone else sad or destitute, so you should not be allowed to end your own life! So no physician should have a right to help anyone die with dignity”. He appears to jump from “healthy breadwinner is needed therefore person tortured by their disease must get no relief.” And seems to insist that it means if the right to physician assisted suicide is available that every physician MUST provide this service. Like if you have a right to have a baby every physician must be your OBGYN.

Then in Post #19 - here comes Nazi Germany. And the accusation that - “we,” I guess? - want to force death on them (the disabled).

Actually, one of the most outspoken groups opposing physician assisted suicide are the disability rights groups. It's ironic that they don't want your death for them considering that they are supposed to be the beneficiaries.

NO ONE HERE has advocated any of the following:

• Forcing people to die
• Asking people to die
• Coercing people to die
• Disrespecting disabilities
• Forcing doctors to assist in purposeful death
• Allowing dignified assisted death free of oversight or constraint

So, unknown soldier, if that is what you are arguing against, you are arguing a position that you fabricated. And every time you have railed against it, you are railing against a paranoia that does not exist and no one is asking to exist.

You have accused Tom of wanting to “tell people to die” and that is a false accusation.
You have accused, “I've seen plenty of pro-death zeal--some of it on this thread.”
You have accused, “Loud right to die support. Almost silent voices for the right to live.”


Your accusations are false. You are fabricating enemies out of people who have never ever advocated for “coercing suicide of unwanted people with disabilities.”


So UnkSol - you have a bee in your bonnet about some unknown, unnamed, nefarious force who wants to murder disabled people, some force that looks to you like Nazis.

And NO ONE is advocating any of that. And today’s laws that govern physician assisted dignified death protect against that - to the extent that terminally ill people who DO want it can’t even get it because the bar for proof is high. That’s today’s balance


But you are here accusing anyone who wants it for themselves or supports it for loved ones who have asked for it as a murderer, and saying that anyone who has indeed wanted such a thing is lying, and you don’t believe them. You seem to be operating from a one-sided, entrenched extreme position that seeks to control the lives and pain and health care decisions of others. Everyone else is arguing for each person to have their own choices - and to have all the care and help they need to access life for as long as they want it.

Thank you very much for that summary of my arguments on this thread regarding the motives and possible discriminatory bias behind the "right to die." I suppose I can say sincerely that nobody here or anywhere else for that matter has convinced me that the right to die is really what its advocates claim it is. I think that a lot of people do lie about it, and that includes many of the people who have promoted it on this thread. If something somebody claims looks to me like a lot of malarkey, then they're not likely to change my mind by putting me on the defensive.

So what might convince me that I'm wrong? As the old saying goes, "Seeing is believing." I want to see all these loving, compassionate and respectful people truly helping the disabled by granting them the right to die after exhausting all the alternatives to help them live quality lives, of course.

But after 45 years of experiencing deceitful cruelty and broken promises, I would bet every cent I have that that will never happen. Frankly, I would need to be a real idiot to believe this "good death" propaganda.

 

[abaddon]

So what might convince me that I'm wrong? As the old saying goes, "Seeing is believing." I want to see all these loving, compassionate and respectful people truly helping the disabled by granting them the right to die after exhausting all the alternatives to help them live quality lives, of course.

Then what's stopping you from seeing?



Many such persons have shared their experience to reporters and documentarians. It's not hard to find the evidence if you're willing to look for it and learn which opinions will survive an honest effort to kill them.

Here are a couple others.




The list could go on and on but you're not totally incapable, right? Just input your keywords "right to die" and you have the opportunity to get a more balanced perspective.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

So what might convince me that I'm wrong? As the old saying goes, "Seeing is believing." I want to see all these loving, compassionate and respectful people truly helping the disabled by granting them the right to die after exhausting all the alternatives to help them live quality lives, of course.

Then what's stopping you from seeing?



Many such persons have shared their experience to reporters and documentarians. It's not hard to find the evidence if you're willing to look for it and learn which opinions will survive an honest effort to kill them.

Here are a couple others.




The list could go on and on but you're not totally incapable, right? Just input your keywords "right to die" and you have the opportunity to get a more balanced perspective.

I'm sorry if I confused you, but I stipulated "I want to see all these loving, compassionate and respectful people truly helping the disabled by granting them the right to die after exhausting all the alternatives to help them live quality lives, of course." YouTube videos don't count as "seeing." Can you post links to any pro euthanasia groups that I can investigate to see if they can truly help improve the quality of my life?

 

[TomC]

I'm sorry if I confused you, but I stipulated "I want to see all these loving, compassionate and respectful people truly helping the disabled by granting them the right to die after exhausting all the alternatives to help them live quality lives, of course." YouTube videos don't count as "seeing." Can you post links to any pro euthanasia groups that I can investigate to see if they can truly help improve the quality of my life?

I'm very much with you on the "YouTube isn't very credible." It isn't to me either.

If you want to see it up close and personal, you'd have to do it yourself. I know nothing about you, including where you live. So I can't give you specific recommendations.
But I'd bet that various local volunteer groups exist wherever it is. Try Hospice maybe.

I learned about it years ago, during the Aids epidemic. It was ugly. But it was very real. That won't work for you.

I'm absolutely sure that if you were willing to try you could find opportunities to see the issue for yourself. I believe it would improve the quality of your life.
Tom

 

[abaddon]

I'm sorry if I confused you, but I stipulated...

You didn't confuse me, I've been aware of the kind of rigged game you play since your earliest threads at IIDB. The point in posting some vids is that the evidence is out there, it's you refusing to look that is the reason that you don't see it.