Do we ALL have a "right to die"?

[TomC]

Well, that sounds like a happy ending to a story that argues against suicide. Problems in life are mostly temporary, but death is permanent. Bill Ward, the former drummer for Black Sabbath, has said that he became so ill from his drug abuse that he contemplated suicide. He got over his illness. Today he says that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. I think there's a lot of truth in what Bill says.

The key word in your post here is "mostly".

All too often people with temporary problems seek a permanent solution. But that's not always the case by any means. Sometimes problems really are permanent.

Modern medical miracles sometimes have the unintended side effect of causing a living hell. Mostly not, but sometimes. Those cases of living hell are the ones the rest of us in this thread are grappling with, even if you want to hand wave them away as unimportant.
Tom

 

[abaddon]

I'd be surprised if there's anyone here who doesn't have a story to tell about suffering so badly they considered suicide but they powered through. It's not an uncommon experience and it doesn't really address the death with dignity arguments in this thread.

 

[Rhea]

I'd be surprised if there's anyone here who doesn't have a story to tell about suffering so badly they considered suicide but they powered through. It's not an uncommon experience and it doesn't really address the death with dignity arguments in this thread.

Indeed, I notice that the opponent of death with dignity has had zero words to say on the condition of my mother, who has been suffering every minute of every day for more than 8 years with absolutely no chance of recovery even remotely possible.

If Unknown Soldier treated my mother the way the disease treats my mother, he would be a monster, tried and convicted of torture. She is tortured daily, and it will never stop until the disease’s hand around her throat finally constricts enough to choke her, though she will gasp and struggle, they say, for several days or perhaps weeks when she finally is suffocated to death. And we have to watch. And she has to experience it. The only exit strategy would be suicide. And since she can no longer ask for that, she will suffocate slowly instead.

Unknown Soldier thinks this is a fitting death sentence for my mother and he shows no comapssion toward alleviating the daily physical and psychological torture. He says her life is “good” and she should get no relief from it. He says that the last 8 years of a vital and active person strapped to a wheel chair and shushed from her daily cries of “just kill me!” is a good life in his opinion and she must cleave to his opinion and live it, because he and his ilk oppose assisted suicide to let her die with dignity.


Honestly, UnkSol, I find your lack of humility to understand the situation of others to be cruel. I’m watching you interact on this thread, having brushed over my mother’s eight-year-long torture and impending slow suffocation without even a word of sympathy. One can understand the ignorant stance of never having known about the suffering of such a common disease, but one cannot understand the coldhearted silence when someone takes the time to tell you about it, followed by the cheerful denial of it with this post:

Well, that sounds like a happy ending to a story that argues against suicide. Problems in life are mostly temporary, but death is permanent. Bill Ward, the former drummer for Black Sabbath, has said that he became so ill from his drug abuse that he contemplated suicide. He got over his illness. Today he says that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. I think there's a lot of truth in what Bill says.

There are 90,000 news cases per year of this disease. And you care not one bit for the suffering of any of them. You can understand why I would not trust you with legislation to govern the care of these people.

I have no respect for your position because it requires the dismissal of the suffering of others.

 

[Marvin Edwards]

Well, that sounds like a happy ending to a story that argues against suicide. Problems in life are mostly temporary, but death is permanent. Bill Ward, the former drummer for Black Sabbath, has said that he became so ill from his drug abuse that he contemplated suicide. He got over his illness. Today he says that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. I think there's a lot of truth in what Bill says.

The key word in your post here is "mostly".

All too often people with temporary problems seek a permanent solution. But that's not always the case by any means. Sometimes problems really are permanent.

Modern medical miracles sometimes have the unintended side effect of causing a living hell. Mostly not, but sometimes. Those cases of living hell are the ones the rest of us in this thread are grappling with, even if you want to hand wave them away as unimportant.
Tom

One of the devices the Pain Clinic gave me for my back pain problem was a TENS machine. I didn't find it helpful. I could still feel the nerve pain in my back, and now had the additional irritation of the trickling electrical shock. Not exactly a "living hell", but I discontinued using the device because it wasn't working for me.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I doubt that those here who have strong objections to the option of assisted suicide...

You are referring to me, of course. I think I'm the only person on this board who hasn't hopped on the suicide bandwagon.

It's not a bandwagon.

FYI, the "bandwagon effect" (wanting to join forces with others to attain peer approval) is often encouraged by ad populum arguments which infer conclusions based merely on the perceived popularity of those conclusions. I make a point of arriving at conclusions based on facts and reason and to heck with what other people think. That's why I'm sticking to my guns on this issue no matter how many people here disagree with me.

...have ever watched lots of people die...

No, I've never watched anybody die although I've known some people who were dying. I made a point of encouraging them and in some cases spent time with them to help them cope.

And did spending time with them remove their suffering?!

I think my treating dying people with respect and valuing them by spending time with them eased their pain significantly. So obviously much of their pain results from loneliness and depression and feeling that nobody wants them. I've noticed that those who support euthanasia don't seem to bother to treat the dying the way I have done.

...or have cared for terminally ill people who have suffered horrendously at the end of life.

I did do some care for a man who was paralyzed from the chest down. Although I wasn't sure about his being a dying man, I discovered soon after that he died from a heart attack.

Anyway, your comments are fairly typical of how euthanasia proponents characterize those who oppose their philosophy. We are stereotyped as callous and living in ivory towers, but at least for me that isn't true at all. I think it's fair to say that I've seen and experienced more suffering than many euthanasia proponents have. I've noticed that euthanasia proponents tend to rely on what they imagine about the sick and the dying while I rely on real-life cases. I think reality trumps fiction on this issue.

You realize one of the people you're arguing against provided home care?

No, I don't realize that. But I should say that I'm very familiar with home "care." I received it for several years, and it was ridiculously bad. Many of my aides were literally criminals, and some of them cheated me out of money, lied to me, cursed at me, showed up late if they showed up at all, and were incompetent lacking many of the most basic skills they should have had. I ended up dropping the "service" realizing that I'm better off without it.

And by the way, one such euthanasia proponent on this board was unable to offer any real-life examples as evidence for his position, and when I pointed out to him that I am a real-life example to support my position, all he could do was curse. I've seen that kind of mentality from the euthanasia enthusiasts many times, and that's why I don't trust them.

And, let me add, that even when assisted suicide is an option, very few people take that option.

That's correct, or at least it is from my own experiences with the dying. I don't recall anybody who ever went through with assisted suicide. It appears that when people say they want it they actually are temporarily feeling hopeless and in time get over it.

The person I know who begged for death did so for months.

I don't believe your story. It's too different from the stories of the dying and suffering people I've known. Your tale seems to be a "boiler-plate" version of the horror stories suicide proponents use to try to convince people that the dying should be killed.

Perhaps our survival mechanism is that strong, so that even when are facing death, we grasp for those few extra weeks, days or hours of life.

SH, you're more perceptive than what I've been giving you credit for! Yes, people tend to seek to live on even under miserable circumstances.

I think I've already mentioned that I've read that just having the option of assisted suicide gives a lot of terminally ill folks comfort. They may not take that option, but they like knowing they can end things if their suffering becomes unbearable. It's the kindest thing we can offer a terminally ill person, imo.

It's kind to tell them we'll help to kill them if they want us to?

Yes. It's much better than Mother Teresa style help torture.

Why do people need to die to avoid "Mother Teresa style torture"? Just make sure they get good care. Did you ever think of that?

 

[Rhea]

FYI, the "bandwagon effect" (wanting to join forces with others to attain peer approval) is often encouraged by ad populum arguments which infer conclusions based merely on the perceived popularity of those conclusions. I make a point of arriving at conclusions based on facts and reason and to heck with what other people think. That's why I'm sticking to my guns on this issue no matter how many people here disagree with me.

Hearing you say that you will force torture on people, no matter what they say asking it to stop, is cruel.

The person I know who begged for death did so for months.

I don't believe your story. It's too different from the stories of the dying and suffering people I've known. Your tale seems to be a "boiler-plate" version of the horror stories suicide proponents use to try to convince people that the dying should be killed.

You don’t believe his story.

Listen to yourself. The lack of compassion is naked there for us all to see. You think you’re the only one to define suffering, and no one else’s experience means a damn thing to you.

Why do people need to die to avoid "Mother Teresa style torture"? Just make sure they get good care. Did you ever think of that?

You are clearly not familiar with the progression of degenerative diseases - those that can cause pain, terror, paranoia.

You can’t just “give good care” to someone whose disease is torturing them.

I realize you are not replying to anyting I post. Perhaps it doesn’t fit in your tidy box, and that’s why you are “sticking to my guns on this issue no matter how many people here disagree with me,” including those who are suffering.

And that is exactly why the Mother Teresa reference is made. She said she liked to watch people suffer. It made her feel close to Jesus. Pathological cruelty.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Well, that sounds like a happy ending to a story that argues against suicide. Problems in life are mostly temporary, but death is permanent. Bill Ward, the former drummer for Black Sabbath, has said that he became so ill from his drug abuse that he contemplated suicide. He got over his illness. Today he says that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. I think there's a lot of truth in what Bill says.

The thing is, not all problems are temporary. When your health goes there's nothing that can be done, you just have to consider whether what's left is worthwhile or simply torment. In many cases the only choices are a painless death or pretty soon a painful death.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I doubt that those here who have strong objections to the option of assisted suicide...

You are referring to me, of course. I think I'm the only person on this board who hasn't hopped on the suicide bandwagon.

It's not a bandwagon.

FYI, the "bandwagon effect" (wanting to join forces with others to attain peer approval) is often encouraged by ad populum arguments which infer conclusions based merely on the perceived popularity of those conclusions. I make a point of arriving at conclusions based on facts and reason and to heck with what other people think. That's why I'm sticking to my guns on this issue no matter how many people here disagree with me.

You're the one who claimed bandwagon.

And did spending time with them remove their suffering?!

I think my treating dying people with respect and valuing them by spending time with them eased their pain significantly. So obviously much of their pain results from loneliness and depression and feeling that nobody wants them. I've noticed that those who support euthanasia don't seem to bother to treat the dying the way I have done.

Maybe your pain came from loneliness and depression but every person I know that asked for or chose death was not lonely.

You realize one of the people you're arguing against provided home care?

No, I don't realize that. But I should say that I'm very familiar with home "care." I received it for several years, and it was ridiculously bad. Many of my aides were literally criminals, and some of them cheated me out of money, lied to me, cursed at me, showed up late if they showed up at all, and were incompetent lacking many of the most basic skills they should have had. I ended up dropping the "service" realizing that I'm better off without it.

The point is they were in a position to have a good idea of the medical situation--I'm not talking about the low level people who provide basically unskilled care. I wouldn't expect good treatment from the bottom of the profession, period.

The person I know who begged for death did so for months.

I don't believe your story. It's too different from the stories of the dying and suffering people I've known. Your tale seems to be a "boiler-plate" version of the horror stories suicide proponents use to try to convince people that the dying should be killed.

So you simply discount the experiences of anyone who has observed something that disagrees with your position. Yours is a position of faith, not reason.

Yes. It's much better than Mother Teresa style help torture.

Why do people need to die to avoid "Mother Teresa style torture"? Just make sure they get good care. Did you ever think of that?

You seem to think "good care" can alleviate suffering.

Could it ease my father's pain? Yes--but only at the cost of his mind. Suffering other than pain? Rarely can the doctors help much.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

FYI, the "bandwagon effect" (wanting to join forces with others to attain peer approval) is often encouraged by ad populum arguments which infer conclusions based merely on the perceived popularity of those conclusions. I make a point of arriving at conclusions based on facts and reason and to heck with what other people think. That's why I'm sticking to my guns on this issue no matter how many people here disagree with me.

Hearing you say that you will force torture on people, no matter what they say asking it to stop, is cruel.

The person I know who begged for death did so for months.

I don't believe your story. It's too different from the stories of the dying and suffering people I've known. Your tale seems to be a "boiler-plate" version of the horror stories suicide proponents use to try to convince people that the dying should be killed.

You don’t believe his story.

Listen to yourself. The lack of compassion is naked there for us all to see. You think you’re the only one to define suffering, and no one else’s experience means a damn thing to you.

Why do people need to die to avoid "Mother Teresa style torture"? Just make sure they get good care. Did you ever think of that?

You are clearly not familiar with the progression of degenerative diseases - those that can cause pain, terror, paranoia.

You can’t just “give good care” to someone whose disease is torturing them.

I realize you are not replying to anyting I post. Perhaps it doesn’t fit in your tidy box, and that’s why you are “sticking to my guns on this issue no matter how many people here disagree with me,” including those who are suffering.

And that is exactly why the Mother Teresa reference is made. She said she liked to watch people suffer. It made her feel close to Jesus. Pathological cruelty.

Remove the personal attacks and insults from your posts, and you're more likely to get a detailed reply from me.

 

[Rhea]

Remove the personal attacks and insults from your posts, and you're more likely to get a detailed reply from me.

I can see why you would want to dodge the very real and very applicable rebuttal to your position. It is probably very uncomfortable to contemplate. It is certainly beyond uncomfortable to live through. Your decision to not consider the content is noted.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

When death is approaching it usually isn't.

I've known plenty of people who have died "naturally." To me it appeared to be the way they wanted to go when they had to go. In fact, I've heard elderly people express fear over the rhetoric that they're better off dead. I understand their fear. Anyway, if you're so concerned about the quality of life for the elderly and the dying, then why not advocate for better care? I know from decades of personal experience that there's an enormous amount of room for improvement in care. If those improvements were realized, then the push for their suicide wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

Anecdotally, my father had the best end of life care he could have ever hoped for. His oncologist managed to make things happen and my Dad was placed in the palliative care ward of the hospital where he'd live out the last two weeks of his life, of which only a four or so days were with no consciousness. His care was consistent, with compassion, and I'm forever grateful he had it.

It didn't make his passing great nor make the waiting for his heart to finally fail great. The doctors struggled to keep up with his discomfort. And having to let my dad sleep in peace instead of being with him talking in his final days was very hard.

This is anecdotal, but it is an example of what a lot of people have gone through in person (but they are dead and can't speak for themselves) and as a loved one. The Terri Schiavo case proved that great care doesn't make forcing life on someone sensical.

And this the easy stuff. Forget about people living with brutal chronic pain or discomfort.

My grandmother had to wait for her heart to fail in her final days, as it took about a week for her to die. My grandfather laid in a hospital bed for 5 or so months with a broken neck and in a coma... on a breathing machine (90 years old!) until he died.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I've known plenty of people who have died "naturally." To me it appeared to be the way they wanted to go when they had to go. In fact, I've heard elderly people express fear over the rhetoric that they're better off dead. I understand their fear. Anyway, if you're so concerned about the quality of life for the elderly and the dying, then why not advocate for better care? I know from decades of personal experience that there's an enormous amount of room for improvement in care. If those improvements were realized, then the push for their suicide wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

Anecdotally, my father had the best end of life care he could have ever hoped for. His oncologist managed to make things happen and my Dad was placed in the palliative care ward of the hospital where he'd live out the last two weeks of his life, of which only a four or so days were with no consciousness. His care was consistent, with compassion, and I'm forever grateful he had it.

I've been disabled for 45 years and have spent much time in hospitals, rehabs, and even a nursing home. The care I received in those places was far from the best I could have ever hoped for. I hated much of it, and to this day I live in fear of ending up in a nursing home. Almost all the people I know feel the same way. So frankly, I'm slow to believe these stories about the "wonder care" some person received in such a place especially when that story is told by somebody who put the person there.

There's no doubt about it--healthcare can be far better than it is. So much pain and misery results from it. And now I'm seeing that pitching for suicide has resulted from it.

This is anecdotal, but it is an example of what a lot of people have gone through in person (but they are dead and can't speak for themselves) and as a loved one.

Yes. I'd prefer to hear from those who are to be the beneficiaries of euthanasia. Of course, we cannot hear from those who have died from it. It could have been far worse for them than to live on. We don't know.

The Terri Schiavo case proved that great care doesn't make forcing life on someone sensical.

I've read a lot about Terri, and contrary to what much of what the mainstream media said about her, according to her own family as well as some on the nursing staff Terri was sentient. Her family wanted to take care of her, but Terri's husband, Michael Schiavo, demanded that she die. He got his wish. Some who were present when Terri was being starved and dehydrated to death said she literally shrieked in pain.

So let me conclude this post saying that I don't believe much of the rhetoric from the suicide advocates here. I don't buy for one minute that they're the compassionate people they claim to be. If they were, then obviously they wouldn't curse out and insult anybody who disagrees with them.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I've been disabled for 45 years and have spent much time in hospitals, rehabs, and even a nursing home. The care I received in those places was far from the best I could have ever hoped for. I hated much of it, and to this day I live in fear of ending up in a nursing home. Almost all the people I know feel the same way. So frankly, I'm slow to believe these stories about the "wonder care" some person received in such a place especially when that story is told by somebody who put the person there.

There's no doubt about it--healthcare can be far better than it is. So much pain and misery results from it. And now I'm seeing that pitching for suicide has resulted from it.

Once again, you're making a faith-based argument--defining good care as care that makes the patient comfortable. Sometimes that's not something the doctors can do.

This is anecdotal, but it is an example of what a lot of people have gone through in person (but they are dead and can't speak for themselves) and as a loved one.

Yes. I'd prefer to hear from those who are to be the beneficiaries of euthanasia. Of course, we cannot hear from those who have died from it. It could have been far worse for them than to live on. We don't know.

We can know that before they took that action they felt that the value of continued life was negative.

The Terri Schiavo case proved that great care doesn't make forcing life on someone sensical.

I've read a lot about Terri, and contrary to what much of what the mainstream media said about her, according to her own family as well as some on the nursing staff Terri was sentient. Her family wanted to take care of her, but Terri's husband, Michael Schiavo, demanded that she die. He got his wish. Some who were present when Terri was being starved and dehydrated to death said she literally shrieked in pain.

Plenty of people are unwilling to accept that a loved one is gone. She was not sentient--the part of the brain that houses consciousness was gone. People see random reflex movements that sometimes happen in relation to what they said and interpret it as a response to what they said.

So let me conclude this post saying that I don't believe much of the rhetoric from the suicide advocates here. I don't buy for one minute that they're the compassionate people they claim to be. If they were, then obviously they wouldn't curse out and insult anybody who disagrees with them.

You choose to deny it.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I've known plenty of people who have died "naturally." To me it appeared to be the way they wanted to go when they had to go. In fact, I've heard elderly people express fear over the rhetoric that they're better off dead. I understand their fear. Anyway, if you're so concerned about the quality of life for the elderly and the dying, then why not advocate for better care? I know from decades of personal experience that there's an enormous amount of room for improvement in care. If those improvements were realized, then the push for their suicide wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

Anecdotally, my father had the best end of life care he could have ever hoped for. His oncologist managed to make things happen and my Dad was placed in the palliative care ward of the hospital where he'd live out the last two weeks of his life, of which only a four or so days were with no consciousness. His care was consistent, with compassion, and I'm forever grateful he had it.

I've been disabled for 45 years and have spent much time in hospitals, rehabs, and even a nursing home. The care I received in those places was far from the best I could have ever hoped for. I hated much of it, and to this day I live in fear of ending up in a nursing home. Almost all the people I know feel the same way. So frankly, I'm slow to believe these stories about the "wonder care" some person received in such a place especially when that story is told by somebody who put the person there.

There's no doubt about it--healthcare can be far better than it is. So much pain and misery results from it. And now I'm seeing that pitching for suicide has resulted from it.

And for those with the chronic pain?

The Terri Schiavo case proved that great care doesn't make forcing life on someone sensical.

I've read a lot about Terri, and contrary to what much of what the mainstream media said about her, according to her own family as well as some on the nursing staff Terri was sentient. Her family wanted to take care of her, but Terri's husband, Michael Schiavo, demanded that she die. He got his wish. Some who were present when Terri was being starved and dehydrated to death said she literally shrieked in pain.

That is a fabrication. Terri's husband moved heaven and earth to try and seek treatment for his wife. Nothing worked. Nothing was left. She wasn't remotely sentient. Her Guardian Ad Litem represented her interests quite fairly.

Also, a lot of people die from dehydration. That happens when we aren't allowed to let people die with dignity.

So let me conclude this post saying that I don't believe much of the rhetoric from the suicide advocates here. I don't buy for one minute that they're the compassionate people they claim to be. If they were, then obviously they wouldn't curse out and insult anybody who disagrees with them.

Or people that have seen death take too damn long. Whether days, weeks, months, or years.

 

[Rhea]

Yes. I'd prefer to hear from those who are to be the beneficiaries of euthanasia.

You did hear from one.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I've been disabled for 45 years and have spent much time in hospitals, rehabs, and even a nursing home. The care I received in those places was far from the best I could have ever hoped for. I hated much of it, and to this day I live in fear of ending up in a nursing home. Almost all the people I know feel the same way. So frankly, I'm slow to believe these stories about the "wonder care" some person received in such a place especially when that story is told by somebody who put the person there.

There's no doubt about it--healthcare can be far better than it is. So much pain and misery results from it. And now I'm seeing that pitching for suicide has resulted from it.

Once again, you're making a faith-based argument--

I don't know what you mean here by "faith-based."

...defining good care as care that makes the patient comfortable.

Yes, and I would add that good care strives to ensure the dignity of the patient and heals the patient to the fullest extent possible.

Sometimes that's not something the doctors can do.

And sometimes it's very possible for doctors and other health-care professionals to do but tragically doesn't get done.

This is anecdotal, but it is an example of what a lot of people have gone through in person (but they are dead and can't speak for themselves) and as a loved one.

Yes. I'd prefer to hear from those who are to be the beneficiaries of euthanasia. Of course, we cannot hear from those who have died from it. It could have been far worse for them than to live on. We don't know.

We can know that before they took that action they felt that the value of continued life was negative.

And how do you know that?

The Terri Schiavo case proved that great care doesn't make forcing life on someone sensical.

I've read a lot about Terri, and contrary to what much of what the mainstream media said about her, according to her own family as well as some on the nursing staff Terri was sentient. Her family wanted to take care of her, but Terri's husband, Michael Schiavo, demanded that she die. He got his wish. Some who were present when Terri was being starved and dehydrated to death said she literally shrieked in pain.

Plenty of people are unwilling to accept that a loved one is gone.

Maybe, but plenty know better than to conclude that a loved-one is "gone." Evidently, a lot of people don't care what they think. Even if their loved one cannot recover, it seems monstrously cruel to me to disregard their feelings and go ahead and kill that loved one. That's exactly what happened in Terri's case.

She was not sentient--the part of the brain that houses consciousness was gone.

I don't believe that. Terri's family, the Schindlers, testified that Terri reacted to them in a very conscious way. I'll believe them.

People see random reflex movements that sometimes happen in relation to what they said and interpret it as a response to what they said.

The Schindlers are not stupid people. They knew Terri and their relationship with her and how she related to them.

So let me conclude this post saying that I don't believe much of the rhetoric from the suicide advocates here. I don't buy for one minute that they're the compassionate people they claim to be. If they were, then obviously they wouldn't curse out and insult anybody who disagrees with them.

You choose to deny it.

Deny what?

I recommend you watch the movie Ich Klage An I Accuse. I understand it supports euthanasia for the same reasons the posters on this thread support it.

 

[bilby]

it seems monstrously cruel to me to disregard their feelings

Meh. It seems even more cruel to me to assume that you know better than them what their feelings must be.

You've spent this entire thread advocating to disregard the feelings of people who want to die, on the specious grounds that you know better.

The ToU prohibit me from expressing just what opinion that gives me of your personality.

 

[abaddon]

I recommend you watch the movie Ich Klage An I Accuse. I understand it supports euthanasia for the same reasons the posters on this thread support it.

In the movie the wife has an incurable disease and asks to be helped to die. Her husband, a doctor, loves her enough to reluctantly assent to her request.


It's not the assisted suicide that's the ugly thing about the movie. It's that the Nazis who commissioned its making didn't intend to "assist" only those who asked for it. Conflating the two issues is sophistry.



Soylent Green is a movie that pops up in my mind along with the topic of voluntary death. Edward G Robinson's scene, where he asks a clinic to help him to die, has a beauty to it. I'd like to die like that, when the time is right for it, though I'd prefer to see real nature instead of just videos of it. (In the movie, the natural beauty of the world had been destroyed so videos were his only option).



Of course I'd rather live 1000 years but it's not an option. I'll die any time between 1 minute to 3 decades from now. There's no stopping that, so I want options about how it happens. I don't want kind people who sympathize and comfort and provide "good care" for a decaying old man who's still technically alive but not really living.

 

[rousseau]

The social side of the problem is an interesting one. I'd think widespread acceptance is a hard sell because then we'd have to admit that many of us don't want to live, and that life isn't as fun as we pretend it is. I'd guess that there are quite a few people out there who'd have trouble wrapping their head around the idea.

It's one of those things we should have the right to, in the same way women have the right to go topless in public, but don't.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

And for those with the chronic pain?

I'm not a medical researcher, so I'm not sure how to treat pain. I do think that doctors can do much better regarding alleviating pain.

The Terri Schiavo case proved that great care doesn't make forcing life on someone sensical.

I've read a lot about Terri, and contrary to what much of what the mainstream media said about her, according to her own family as well as some on the nursing staff Terri was sentient. Her family wanted to take care of her, but Terri's husband, Michael Schiavo, demanded that she die. He got his wish. Some who were present when Terri was being starved and dehydrated to death said she literally shrieked in pain.

That is a fabrication.

I think it's essentially correct. I'd sooner trust the Schindlers than the media.

Terri's husband moved heaven and earth to try and seek treatment for his wife.

Actually, while poor Terri resided in a hospital with severe brain damage her husband Michael Schiavo had a live-in girlfriend whom he was having children with. So while he didn't move "heaven and earth" he was moving something much smaller.

Besides, I think the whole reason Terri had brain trauma was a result of an initial murder attempt on the part of Michael Schiavo. Schiavo completed Terri's murder later on with the help of the court system..

So let me conclude this post saying that I don't believe much of the rhetoric from the suicide advocates here. I don't buy for one minute that they're the compassionate people they claim to be. If they were, then obviously they wouldn't curse out and insult anybody who disagrees with them.

Or people that have seen death take too damn long. Whether days, weeks, months, or years.

Oh, it's very possible they've seen people die. The cause of those deaths is unknown.