Essential nutrients - what do we need to eat?

[lpetrich]

I first looked at amino acids, but KEGG mixed essential and nonessential ones in some cases, so I have to look at the pathways in detail to be sure. KEGG uses diagrams that have a color convention of green if present, white if absent, with the diagrams being black on white.

 Lysine has the oddity of two different biosynthesis pathways, DAP (diaminopimelate) and AAA (alpha-aminoadipate).

• Animals: no lysine biosynthesis
• Plants: DAP
• Fungi: AAA
• Haptophyte alga Emiliania huxleyi: DAP
• Bacteria (ordinary bacteria): DAP; some have both DAP and AAA
• Archaea (archaebacteria): some DAP, some AAA

I then looked at vitamin biosynthesis. The B vitamins are indeed vitamins across the animal kingdom, as far as I could tell from KEGG's diagrams. I verified that for most of them, I think.

 

[spikepipsqueak]

A lot depends on life stage. People have lived with what looks to us like deficiency. They survive, but they don't grow properly.

This might be a good place to talk about something that I have never found the explanation for.

On one of the Arctic/Antarctic expeditions (Scott, Shackleton ... ?) the first person to die from what looked like starvation was a quite corpulent gentleman. I assume that he didn't have the nutrients, either in his diet or his person, to exploit the large amount of stored energy he was carrying, but I've never been able to track down a detailed mechanism that would explain it.

 

[Jokodo]

Some insects, like aphids, have microbes residing in them that make nutritional supplements for them. That enables aphids to live on plant sap, something that is junk food for aphids. I call it that because of its very limited nutritional value for aphids. In fact, aphids excrete most of its water and sugar, as honeydew.

I like the equation plant sap = junk food. Imagine relying on a diet so relatively rich in sugar / nutritional energy and so poor in everything else that you have to eat multiple times above your caloric needs to get enough micronutrients despite of the help of microbial symbionts. Excreting pure energy is actually an elegant solution, humans would just get morbidly obese instead.

 

[Bomb#20]

So maybe the only real difference between the "poison" arsenic and the valuable nutrient selenium is that four selenium, ambient concentrations tend to be at the lower end of the range of what's good for as and often below so deficiencies are common and overdoses virtually unheard of...

Actually there have been a lot of reported cases of selenium overdose, including at least one fatality. The usual cause is dietary supplements, either a manufacturer screwing up and putting in too much, or else people taking too many pills because they know it's a valuable nutrient. There are also natural overdoses in places like the Punjab with high concentration in the soil.

 

[Bomb#20]

An exception is vitamin-A poisoning:  Hypervitaminosis A - one can get lethal doses from "normal" eating portions of some animals' livers, like 500 grams of polar-bear liver.

Note to self: Cut back on the polar-bear liver.

Whoa, you actually like polar bear liver?!? Ah well, there's no accounting for taste...

 

[steve_bank]

A reporter said on his first visit to NK he thought he was seeing teens but they were adults. Poor nutrition affecting growth while young.

Something I read. The height and width of doors in old 19th century dwellings were smaller. As nutrition improved people grew taller.

Average adult height by year of birth

Average height of men and women at age 18, by year of birth.

ourworldindata.org

Food fortification - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Food fortification or enrichment is the process of adding micronutrients (essential trace elements and vitamins) to food. It can be carried out by food manufacturers, or by governments as a public health policy which aims to reduce the number of people with dietary deficiencies within a population. The predominant diet within a region can lack particular nutrients due to the local soil or from inherent deficiencies within the staple foods; the addition of micronutrients to staples and condiments can prevent large-scale deficiency diseases in these cases.[1]

As defined by the World Health Organization (WHO) and the Food and Agricultural Organization of the United Nations (FAO), fortification refers to "the practice of deliberately increasing the content of an essential micronutrient, i.e. vitamins and minerals (including trace elements) in a food, to improve the nutritional quality of the food supply and to provide a public health benefit with minimal risk to health", whereas enrichment is defined as "synonymous with fortification and refers to the addition of micronutrients to a food which are lost during processing".[2]

Food fortification has been identified as the second strategy of four by the WHO and FAO to begin decreasing the incidence of nutrient deficiencies at the global level.[2] As outlined by the FAO, the most commonly fortified foods are cereals and cereal-based products; milk and dairy products; fats and oils; accessory food items; tea and other beverages; and infant formulas.[3] Undernutrition and nutrient deficiency is estimated globally to cause the deaths of between 3 and 5 million people per year.[1]

Vitamin A and D deficiency had been an issue here. I rember milk and breakfast cereals being fortifued in the 50s.

What dairy products are fortified?
Fortified dairy products include products, such as milk, cheese, and yogurt. Fortified dairy products contain extra vitamins and minerals which are not already available in dairy products. The dairy products can be fortified with different nutrients like iron, zinc, and Vitamin D.

Plain salt vs iodized salt at the store.

What is fortified salt?
Double fortified salt (DFS) is a form of table salt manufactured with added iron and iodine. When consumed in regular cooking, it can help overcome iron deficiency (anaemia) and iodine deficiency disorders.

Is fortified salt the same as iodized salt?
Iodised salt is fortified to provide 100% of a person's iodine requirements and is highly effective. Double-fortified salt was developed to provide 30% of a person's daily dietary iron requirement and 100% of their iodine requirement.Apr 21, 2022

Foods such as edible oils and fats, cereal grains, condiments, refined sugar and milk have been successfully fortified with vitamin A and studies have shown that consumption of vitamin A-fortified foods can improve vitamin A status.Aug 9, 2023

I don't know if the story is anecdotal. One restaurant in Asia served brown rice instead of white. Regular eaters of brown rice at the restaurant did not develop beri beri.

Beriberi is a deficiency of thiamine, more commonly known as vitamin B1. Your body needs thiamine to break down and digest the foods you eat, to keep your metabolism going, and help your muscles and nervous system do their jobs effectively. Beriberi can affect the cardiovascular system or central nervous system.May 4, 2023

One story says the cure for scurvy on siang ships was foud accdentally.

The treatment for scurvy is vitamin C supplementation. Recommendations are that 1 to 2 grams of vitamin C be administered daily for the first 2 to 3 days followed by 500 mg per day for the next week. Afterward, a daily intake of 100 mg of vitamin C should be given for 1 to 3 months.

So in short, nutrition and essential vitamins and minerals are important. You may be greeting some of it from fortified foods you eat.

 

[steve_bank]

What should you eat? What has been said for decades reinforced by my doctors.

A varied diet. Minimum amounts of beef. Chicken and fish over beef. A variety of fruits and vegetables.

Lage scale consumption of daily beef is a modern phenomena related to modern farming and ranching beginning in the 19th century.

 

[Politesse]

Our nutrient budget is a lasting legacy of our evolution as a foraging, omnivorous species in fairly abundant but arid woodlands. But it is interesting how that set us up to be effective colonizers of other biomes, even to some of the most extreme extents imaginable.

 

[Tigers!]

Note to self: Cut back on the polar-bear liver.

Just don’t exceed 499 grams.

Yes but you have to kill the beggar first without getting killed yourself to enjoy that liver.

 

[bilby]

A reporter said

Something I read

I don't know if the story is anecdotal

One story says

You really need to work on your citations.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Too much or too little sodium is not good.

Too much or too little ANYTHING is not good.

Too little of some things is tolerable, as long as you can synthesise or substitute that thing. But as a general rule, bigger or smaller amounts than is typical, in the wide range of human long-term diets, is going to be uncomfortable, if not fatal.

Humans are fragile creatures, like all organisms that evolved in an environment where complex nutrients were readily available.

If I can out-compete my contemporaries, by dropping ascorbate synthesis in favour of obtaining it from my diet, then that's obviously the winning evolutionary strategy - right up until my environment changes to an eighteenth century transoceanic sailing ship, which has no citrus fruits or sauerkraut on board.

I doubt it's so much that it's an evolutionary advantage, but that it came along with something beneficial. The energy cost of being able to synthesize it simply isn't that great.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

A reporter said on his first visit to NK he thought he was seeing teens but they were adults. Poor nutrition affecting growth while young.

Observation: When I was first in China the adults had all lived at least part of their life under the old communist system. I was able to see over the heads of crowds--my eyes were above the top of their hair. However, as the children who only lived under capitalism reached full growth I could no longer see over their heads--now I can no more see over a crowd in China than I could in the US. I'm still taller than average but the difference is not so dramatic.

Something I read. The height and width of doors in old 19th century dwellings were smaller. As nutrition improved people grew taller.

I've seen that in ancient buildings in China, also. Beams set at a height (most of the ancient buildings use an exposed-rafter system) that would pose a hazard to even communist-era Chinese.

Foods such as edible oils and fats, cereal grains, condiments, refined sugar and milk have been successfully fortified with vitamin A and studies have shown that consumption of vitamin A-fortified foods can improve vitamin A status.Aug 9, 2023

I don't know if the story is anecdotal. One restaurant in Asia served brown rice instead of white. Regular eaters of brown rice at the restaurant did not develop beri beri.

I don't know about the restaurant, but white rice has been linked to beri beri.

 

[southernhybrid]

People are statistically taller these days, but while more research is probably needed, taller people statistically have shorter lives compared to short people. I've known about this for a long time, but I'll add a link so you don't think I'm making it up. There are several possibilities as to why this may be true.

https://www.healthline.com/health/do-short-people-live-longer

So, is it really better that we are taller these days?

 

[Tigers!]

Here are an Australian's essential nutrients

 

[Tigers!]

A reporter said on his first visit to NK he thought he was seeing teens but they were adults. Poor nutrition affecting growth while young.

Observation: When I was first in China the adults had all lived at least part of their life under the old communist system. I was able to see over the heads of crowds--my eyes were above the top of their hair. However, as the children who only lived under capitalism reached full growth I could no longer see over their heads--now I can no more see over a crowd in China than I could in the US. I'm still taller than average but the difference is not so dramatic.

The official Aust. military history of the North African campaign in WW2 noted that the size of clothing, boots etc. required for Australian soldiers were larger than for British soldiers. This was put down to the diet of the Australians being more meat based than British when growing up.

 

[bilby]

Something I read. The height and width of doors in old 19th century dwellings were smaller. As nutrition improved people grew taller.

I've seen that in ancient buildings in China, also. Beams set at a height (most of the ancient buildings use an exposed-rafter system) that would pose a hazard to even communist-era Chinese.

Ceiling and doorway heights likely have more to do with cost than with the height of the residents. Low buildings with low doorways are cheaper to build, and cheaper to heat, than taller structures.



These visitors to the Hermitage in St Petersburg could conclude that the Tsars had a better diet than modern tourists, and grew to twelve feet tall; Or they could hypothesise that despite the height of their doorways, the Tsars were of normal stature, but wanted to impress their visitors with their vast wealth.

Average heights in England were certainly smaller in the Medieval period than they are today, but even when they were built, most people would have had to duck to pass through the doorways of a Medieval cottage.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

People are statistically taller these days, but while more research is probably needed, taller people statistically have shorter lives compared to short people. I've known about this for a long time, but I'll add a link so you don't think I'm making it up. There are several possibilities as to why this may be true.

https://www.healthline.com/health/do-short-people-live-longer

So, is it really better that we are taller these days?

Short people live longer if everything is equal. Is shortness due to a lack of nutrition when growing good for survival, though??

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Something I read. The height and width of doors in old 19th century dwellings were smaller. As nutrition improved people grew taller.

I've seen that in ancient buildings in China, also. Beams set at a height (most of the ancient buildings use an exposed-rafter system) that would pose a hazard to even communist-era Chinese.

Ceiling and doorway heights likely have more to do with cost than with the height of the residents. Low buildings with low doorways are cheaper to build, and cheaper to heat, than taller structures.

View attachment 44670

These visitors to the Hermitage in St Petersburg could conclude that the Tsars had a better diet than modern tourists, and grew to twelve feet tall; Or they could hypothesise that despite the height of their doorways, the Tsars were of normal stature, but wanted to impress their visitors with their vast wealth.

Average heights in England were certainly smaller in the Medieval period than they are today, but even when they were built, most people would have had to duck to pass through the doorways of a Medieval cottage.

Cottages wouldn't have survived from long ago. The Chinese beams that were an issue weren't low for budget reasons.

 

[bilby]

Cottages wouldn't have survived from long ago.

Are you fucking kidding me??

England is lousy with Medieval cottages. My Uncle Kevin lived in one when he was SATCO at RAF Witton back in the 1980s. The ceilings in the front room were about five feet high; The room was designed for sitting in, so taller ceilings would have been pointless.

The kitchen had enough headroom to work standing up (as long as you remembered to duck under the beams).

There are thousands of Cruck cottages that survive to this day from before the 1348 pandemic, although most have been extensively altered, typically by the addition of an upper storey, and/or an extension into the backyard.

Even more later Medieval cottages survive, as well as plenty of higher status buildings such as manor houses.

 

[Jokodo]

Too much or too little sodium is not good.

Too much or too little ANYTHING is not good.

Too little of some things is tolerable, as long as you can synthesise or substitute that thing. But as a general rule, bigger or smaller amounts than is typical, in the wide range of human long-term diets, is going to be uncomfortable, if not fatal.

Humans are fragile creatures, like all organisms that evolved in an environment where complex nutrients were readily available.

If I can out-compete my contemporaries, by dropping ascorbate synthesis in favour of obtaining it from my diet, then that's obviously the winning evolutionary strategy - right up until my environment changes to an eighteenth century transoceanic sailing ship, which has no citrus fruits or sauerkraut on board.

I doubt it's so much that it's an evolutionary advantage, but that it came along with something beneficial. The energy cost of being able to synthesize it simply isn't that great.

It doesn't need to even come along with anything beneficial. If you are a frugivore, losing the ability to synthesise vitamin c is a perfectly neutral mutation. A frugivore will starve to death long before suffering a lack of vitamin c if they can't find enough fruit to cover their vitamin needs. Obviously different fruit have different vitamin content, say 30mg per 100g or thereabouts for apples, depending on breed and location and climate etc, up to 1250mg/100g, which is the figure most widely quoted for rose hips (yes, that's more than 1% by mass). But even with a relatively low vitamin c fruit, by the time you've ingested enough fruit sugar to cover your calory needs - let alone enough protein - vitamin c isn't something you need to worry about.

Neutral mutations however can spread and reach fixation by pure chance, as per genetic drift. So in a frugivorous population, losing this ability isn't going to do anything, and the mutants can easily (especially in a small population) come to dominate and eventually the wild type become extinct by pure chance - millions of years before their descendents switch to an insect or grain based diet where this becomes an issue.