Europe submits voluntarily

[whichphilosophy]

The number of jobs available in a given area is not a fixed quantity that, if exceeded due to immigration, leads to unemployment for those who didn't have a chair when the music stopped.

The number of jobs in an area is greater for higher population densities - that's why you can't get a job in the middle of the Sahara, despite zero competition; and it is why the Chinese peasants want to go to Shanghai.

The idea that immigrants will take all the jobs is fucking insane. Immigrants (or indeed any people) cause more jobs than they take. That's why if you live in a small village, you have to move to the big city to find work - your chances of finding a job are better the more people there are in your immediate area.

That wasn't true in pre-industrial societies; But it is certainly true now, and has been for 150 years. Cities are where the jobs are, because they are where the people are. More people means MORE jobs, not fewer.

Any area with high net immigration DOES have endless jobs to offer. Observation tells us this; common sense says otherwise, which is why common sense is such a SHIT way of getting to the truth.

Not all farmers can go to Shanghai as China controls its migration within its county borders to prevent overcrowding. Immigration may eventually create more jobs but if we are able to wait a generation then More shoes hats and suits will be required but that is simply a big economy. Billions will be required to build schools houses, shops etc. However, we do not need to destroy the last of our forests or start paying for higher rise blocks. We would be better off by drastically reducing the economic migrants. It is not a problem to allow genuine refugees

Besides what is wrong with the economic migrants staying home and making a go of their own countries?

 

[whichphilosophy]

The problem with this is that H1-Bs are not fair competition. Screw an American, he will probably do something about it. Screw a H1-B and he'll probably put up with it.

There is not a single person working in Europe on an H1-B visa; And refugees are not taking skilled jobs; they are taking whatever jobs they can get; so whatever point you are seeking to make is a long way off topic.

Some refugees are very skilled. Syria does have some engineers doctors writers and academics. Hong Kong passed some interesting laws when under British rule to protect its workers from low paid competition from abroad by passing laws which guaranteed imported labour would earn as a minimum, the same as local people. It's not perfect but it does work a little. However those working illegally will continue to work on bottom dollar.

 

[DrZoidberg]

This is nothing new. Those who look down the most on a minority is usually a member of another minority. Bizarre but old as dirt. This is not news.

The concern is the high volume of people coming in when the country does not have endless jobs to offer. Other countries have stricter laws on migration. Even China has an internal visa system to prevent one billion people ending up in Shanghai, Tianjin and Beijing looking for better jobs.

Ehe? People generate jobs. The more people the more jobs. If you're a little princess and you're too precious to take what jobs are on offer you may have a problem. And steering people toward taking what jobs are needed (rather than what they want) is just a matter of policy. It's not hard to do.

Can we please kill the "they took our jobs" myth. It's getting pretty old. Immigrants can't win. Either they're taking our jobs or they're scrounging off our benefits. When in reality they're just like people anywhere. Just want to get by in life.

 

[TSwizzle]

Can we please kill the "they took our jobs" myth. It's getting pretty old.

The people storming the newly erected fences in Europe are not immigrants. Can we please kill the "they are immigrants" myth ? It's getting very old.

 

[bilby]

Can we please kill the "they took our jobs" myth. It's getting pretty old.

The people storming the newly erected fences in Europe are not immigrants. Can we please kill the "they are immigrants" myth ? It's getting very old.

OK, we can call them 'refugees' if you prefer.

 

[whichphilosophy]

The concern is the high volume of people coming in when the country does not have endless jobs to offer. Other countries have stricter laws on migration. Even China has an internal visa system to prevent one billion people ending up in Shanghai, Tianjin and Beijing looking for better jobs.

Ehe? People generate jobs. The more people the more jobs. If you're a little princess and you're too precious to take what jobs are on offer you may have a problem. And steering people toward taking what jobs are needed (rather than what they want) is just a matter of policy. It's not hard to do.

Can we please kill the "they took our jobs" myth. It's getting pretty old. Immigrants can't win. Either they're taking our jobs or they're scrounging off our benefits. When in reality they're just like people anywhere. Just want to get by in life.

What about (economic) migrants developing their own societies. Some are very well educated and it is a matter of them influencing attitudes back home. There's no need to jam the world into Sweden Australia and Germany. As for genuine refugees (who then don't go back home every year for a holiday to Somalia etc) we can consider assisting.

- - - Updated - - -

The people storming the newly erected fences in Europe are not immigrants. Can we please kill the "they are immigrants" myth ? It's getting very old.

OK, we can call them 'refugees' if you prefer.

There is a distinction between economic migrants and refugees.

 

[KeepTalking]

The people storming the newly erected fences in Europe are not immigrants. Can we please kill the "they are immigrants" myth ? It's getting very old.

OK, we can call them 'refugees' if you prefer.

 

[DrZoidberg]

What about (economic) migrants developing their own societies. Some are very well educated and it is a matter of them influencing attitudes back home. There's no need to jam the world into Sweden Australia and Germany. As for genuine refugees (who then don't go back home every year for a holiday to Somalia etc) we can consider assisting.

The difference between us is that I don't think it is a problem. In fact, I think it's awesome. If immigrants wouldn't have set up their own little societies Swedish cuisine would still be pretty shit. Just one example. There's many examples of immigrants retaining their customs that end up a positive net effect for Sweden. In fact, there's almost nothing remaining of any home grown Sweden culture. It's pretty much all imports. Certain remnants remain. But overall the culture we identify as Swedish isn't Swedish at all. There's a number of pan-European tendencys, or even International tendencys.

In sociology there's a rule of thumb about immigration. Immigrants retain their culture when moving to the new culture. Those behaviours that are inferior to the receiving culture will be dropped. Those behaviours that are superior to the receiving culture will be retained and spread. There will be a natural evolution to better adapted behaviours. Bottom line, we need to worry less and just let people get on with life. Just get out of people's way as much as possible. Let them do their thing and trust people's ability to figure out what is best for them.

 

[whichphilosophy]

What about (economic) migrants developing their own societies. Some are very well educated and it is a matter of them influencing attitudes back home. There's no need to jam the world into Sweden Australia and Germany. As for genuine refugees (who then don't go back home every year for a holiday to Somalia etc) we can consider assisting.

The difference between us is that I don't think it is a problem. In fact, I think it's awesome. If immigrants wouldn't have set up their own little societies Swedish cuisine would still be pretty shit. Just one example. There's many examples of immigrants retaining their customs that end up a positive net effect for Sweden. In fact, there's almost nothing remaining of any home grown Sweden culture. It's pretty much all imports. Certain remnants remain. But overall the culture we identify as Swedish isn't Swedish at all. There's a number of pan-European tendencys, or even International tendencys.

In sociology there's a rule of thumb about immigration. Immigrants retain their culture when moving to the new culture. Those behaviours that are inferior to the receiving culture will be dropped. Those behaviours that are superior to the receiving culture will be retained and spread. There will be a natural evolution to better adapted behaviours. Bottom line, we need to worry less and just let people get on with life. Just get out of people's way as much as possible. Let them do their thing and trust people's ability to figure out what is best for them.

Sometimes it works both ways. Integration in itself is not the most important factor but tolerance and obeying the laws are. The Chinese have done well for hundreds of years without changing their culture until quite recently. The problem as we are increasingly beginning to understand is the volume coming in. Also if we take too many skilled people this will also cause a brain drain in their own countries. At least China has been giving away scholarships to its brightest to study abroad and frequently given cash incentives for graduates to set up a practice in China. The countries we are aiding should be also doing this more. China accepts contract workers but citizenship is very difficult to obtain. The person must also renounce their previous citizenship (No dual nationalities allowed). The Gulf states give no citizenship or the 'right to work' for any foreign nationals other than as a contract worker with no right of abode after completion.

 

[repoman]

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There's a very simple reason Israel shouldn't let them in: They're going to side with Israel's enemies.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The difference between us is that I don't think it is a problem. In fact, I think it's awesome. If immigrants wouldn't have set up their own little societies Swedish cuisine would still be pretty shit. Just one example. There's many examples of immigrants retaining their customs that end up a positive net effect for Sweden. In fact, there's almost nothing remaining of any home grown Sweden culture. It's pretty much all imports. Certain remnants remain. But overall the culture we identify as Swedish isn't Swedish at all. There's a number of pan-European tendencys, or even International tendencys.

In sociology there's a rule of thumb about immigration. Immigrants retain their culture when moving to the new culture. Those behaviours that are inferior to the receiving culture will be dropped. Those behaviours that are superior to the receiving culture will be retained and spread. There will be a natural evolution to better adapted behaviours. Bottom line, we need to worry less and just let people get on with life. Just get out of people's way as much as possible. Let them do their thing and trust people's ability to figure out what is best for them.

Sometimes it works both ways. Integration in itself is not the most important factor but tolerance and obeying the laws are. The Chinese have done well for hundreds of years without changing their culture until quite recently. The problem as we are increasingly beginning to understand is the volume coming in. Also if we take too many skilled people this will also cause a brain drain in their own countries. At least China has been giving away scholarships to its brightest to study abroad and frequently given cash incentives for graduates to set up a practice in China. The countries we are aiding should be also doing this more. China accepts contract workers but citizenship is very difficult to obtain. The person must also renounce their previous citizenship (No dual nationalities allowed). The Gulf states give no citizenship or the 'right to work' for any foreign nationals other than as a contract worker with no right of abode after completion.

First off China is huge and has a multitude of cultures and ethnicities within it's borders. Talking about China and Chinese culture as just one thing is like talking about Americans and not realising that Argentina and USA are different. Yes, the cultures of China are pretty different from the surrounding cultures. India is the same. Why? Because these are the two centres for empires that have traditionally been the world's richest regions. They have been that for ca 6000 - 8000 years. Due to hubris they decided that all surrounding cultures were inferior and they had nothing to learn from their neighbours. The result was that industrialisation didn't start in China. It could have. China certainly had all the parts. But because they shut out foreigners and felt safe in their superiority they didn't see the western threat until it was too late. India is similar even though they didn't have ready access to large amounts of coal. But industrialisation started in India prior to English domination. But it didn't really take hold due to conservatism. Both India and China thought their countries were perfect just the way they were and both went from, just within 200 years went from being the most powerful regions in the world to among the poorest. There's a moral to this story.

Integration doesn't mean wiping out your own culture as you move to another. Integration just means figuring out how to make a living in the new country.

Also, China today isn't a model country and they shouldn't be held up as an example to anyone. They're fascist. Yes, I know they're officially communist. But to me they operate more like fascists. Both India and China are the same in this regard. They refuse to acknowledge they've slid behind the rest of the world and continue to pretend like they're ahead of their game. I know more about India than China. But it's a pretty tiring attitude they have.

I think the road to success, both as a nation and personally, is a humble attitude. Don't assume you are superior to others and assume you have something to learn. Your ego might take a beating but you'll come out ahead of the pack this way.

 

[angelo]

China also has a policy of keeping islam out of their country, as has Japan. Do they know something the Westerners don't?

 

[4321lynx]

Oh crap. My boss is on vacation in Europe right now. Should I try to warn him about the impending apocalypse? Or is it already too late?

Its a matter of Maths.
Take a European population with 15% Muslims . Then compare a 1.6 to an 8.1 birth rate. Islam is also fast growing amongst Europeans. I prefer Halal beef by the way. If however islam in Europe adopts and retains the culture of its host countries I think many of our civil rights will remain intact. So pretty soon the host citizens will be a minority.

You think Europe has problems? Here's a warning sign to poor Canada.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/trending/move-to-canada-super-tuesday-1.3472124

 

[repoman]

The very end is the best...

 

[TSwizzle]

If immigrants wouldn't have set up their own little societies Swedish cuisine would still be pretty shit.

There's a bit more to this than satisfying your penchant for tasty food.

In sociology there's a rule of thumb about immigration. Immigrants retain their culture when moving to the new culture. Those behaviours that are inferior to the receiving culture will be dropped. Those behaviours that are superior to the receiving culture will be retained and spread. There will be a natural evolution to better adapted behaviours.

It's not panning out that way though. Particularly in places like Rotheram UK.

 

[untermensche]

There's a very simple reason Israel shouldn't let them in: They're going to side with Israel's enemies.

The enemies Israel has created.

But it is amazing you know what side people will take without speaking to one of them.

 

[DrZoidberg]

China also has a policy of keeping islam out of their country, as has Japan. Do they know something the Westerners don't?

Oh, come on. The Chinese resistance against Islam is just pure racism. Their Uigur minority is, pretty much, all Muslim. So their anti-Islamic policies are most likely just anti-Uigur policies. It's like Hungary are putting laws in place for national unity which are all just formulated to push out Jews and Gypsies out of the country.

Also, Chinese don't stop with hating Muslims. They don't want religious people at all in the country. Even though they're nominally tolerant now. They really aren't. It's impossible for a religious person to get a government office and religious people are harassed in a number of ways.

 

[TSwizzle]

This doesn't surprise me;

Russia and Syria are deliberately using migration as an aggressive strategy towards Europe, the senior Nato commander in Europe has said. US Gen Philip Breedlove said they were "weaponising" migration to destabilise and undermine the continent.
He also suggested that criminals, extremists and fighters were hiding in the flow of migrants.

BBC


In other words, create a stampede in the ME and corral them towards Europe where Merkel and her fellow travelers will surrender voluntarily.

 

[DrZoidberg]

This doesn't surprise me;

Russia and Syria are deliberately using migration as an aggressive strategy towards Europe, the senior Nato commander in Europe has said. US Gen Philip Breedlove said they were "weaponising" migration to destabilise and undermine the continent.
He also suggested that criminals, extremists and fighters were hiding in the flow of migrants.

BBC


In other words, create a stampede in the ME and corral them towards Europe where Merkel and her fellow travelers will surrender voluntarily.

ha ha ha. The dumbest shit I ever heard. WTF does it even mean? It sounds like a conspiracy theory. My money is on that he just let his lips flap without thinking who was listening. I think Lt General Philip Breedlove is up for a very stern talking to by his superiors. Wouldn't want to be him right now.

Of course nobody is orchestrating a refugee crisis. None of the fighting sides want people to leave. They're not really fighting over land. They're fighting over people. Less people = less power. Why would Russia benefit from a destabilised Europe? Europe is Russias main trading partner. Russians making money is Putin's best guarantee for staying in power. Obviously he wants a strong and stable Europe. Why would the Assad regime give a rats ass about Europe? I would have though Assad has enough on his plate as it is. This is just such dumb shit.