Europe submits voluntarily

[TSwizzle]

The stampede of "refugees" into Europe continues;



Guardian

The Germans have thrown up their arms in surrender and are begging the EU to take more migrants.

Indeed. Creaking, aging Europe will either submit or go up in flames.

 

[bilby]

The Germans have thrown up their arms in surrender and are begging the EU to take more migrants.

Indeed. Creaking, aging Europe will either submit or go up in flames.

What's the weather like on your planet?

I bet it's scary - everything seems to be scary to you. Living in constant terror must be exhausting.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Indeed. Creaking, aging Europe will either submit or go up in flames.

What's the weather like on your planet?

I bet it's scary - everything seems to be scary to you. Living in constant terror must be exhausting.

There is no harm in being cautions. Most of the people who arrive in Europe are men between 18 and 45 hence a higher portion of the population. There are also security concerns, with respect to existing citizens going back and forth to Syria and new people from Syria. This may be just a fraction of a percentage point but that would be enough given a the volumes that are entering the Western World.

As I said, the problem is not in majority of those who come over but in the volume thus increasing any likelihood of imported problems in addition to our home grown radicalized handful of individuals.
Economic migration can be hard for the countries where its skilled people leave as this can cause a brain drain of resources.

 

[angelo]

Apart from all that. Never mind what the pc brigades say. These backward, barbaric people will never integrate with the natives of the host countries. It's been proven all over the planet that they will create communities within communities of moslems.

 

[bigfield]

It's been proven all over the planet that they will create communities within communities of moslems.

So, just like Jewish communities, then.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Apart from all that. Never mind what the pc brigades say. These backward, barbaric people will never integrate with the natives of the host countries. It's been proven all over the planet that they will create communities within communities of moslems.

Translation: I don't care what the evidence says. I will ignore the fact that most Muslims have integrated fine into the west. Why? Because I want to that's why.

Anything else you want to assert that goes against evidence?

 

[whichphilosophy]

It's been proven all over the planet that they will create communities within communities of moslems.

So, just like Jewish communities, then.

All communities will form communities within communities. The Jews kept to themselves as well as interacted with others. Most have done and do this. The problem will arise when a few in a minority community become hostile the other communities. Some Muslims have done this. Some right wing groups have also done this.

The problem unprecedented numbers are being driven into Europe in addition to real refugees is resulting in some issues.

 

[DrZoidberg]

So, just like Jewish communities, then.

All communities will form communities within communities. The Jews kept to themselves as well as interacted with others. Most have done and do this. The problem will arise when a few in a minority community become hostile the other communities. Some Muslims have done this. Some right wing groups have also done this.

The problem unprecedented numbers are being driven into Europe in addition to real refugees is resulting in some issues.

I'm an upper middle class liberal software engineer. My life and my activities are surrounded around my little culture within the culture. Almost all my friends share my (comfortable and affluent) way of life. Me and my friends help each other out in times of need. I don't offer support (or expect support) from all Swedes. Just the Swedes who are like me. Since I'm well travelled, my culture within a culture, is not limited to just Sweden. I belong to a kind of International cosmopolitan tribe. We all share very similar values. I have friends who are political journalists and writers. I almost never disagree with anything they write. Because we're so similar.

Many times I've ended up at parties among working class people. I have almost nothing in common with them. We don't laugh at the same jokes. We don't have the same interests. When they suggest doing another line of coke and being up all night I tend to look at the watch and worry about being too worn out for yoga class the next day. So I politely refuse and go home. Once this happened and I tasted my drink I noticed that they'd put the drugs in the drink. Something which people of my own cultural background just would never do. This is a culture clash within the same culture. All the people in the above anecdote were Swedish.

This idea that Sweden has just one culture or that there is such a thing as a Swedish culture is retarded. Sweden has many cultures. Thousands of cultures and sub-cultures. Ethnicity and religion is just another one in the bucket. And it's not the most important one. Education is the number one factor for being successful in Sweden. All other considerations are subordinate. And sub-cultures promoting education cuts across all ethnicities. Every country has a minority culture of people who study hard and are successful in life.

 

[fromderinside]

All communities will form communities within communities. The Jews kept to themselves as well as interacted with others. Most have done and do this. The problem will arise when a few in a minority community become hostile the other communities. Some Muslims have done this. Some right wing groups have also done this.

The problem unprecedented numbers are being driven into Europe in addition to real refugees is resulting in some issues.

I'm an upper middle class liberal software engineer. My life and my activities are surrounded around my little culture within the culture. Almost all my friends share my (comfortable and affluent) way of life. Me and my friends help each other out in times of need. I don't offer support (or expect support) from all Swedes. Just the Swedes who are like me. Since I'm well travelled, my culture within a culture, is not limited to just Sweden. I belong to a kind of International cosmopolitan tribe. We all share very similar values. I have friends who are political journalists and writers. I almost never disagree with anything they write. Because we're so similar.

Many times I've ended up at parties among working class people. I have almost nothing in common with them. We don't laugh at the same jokes. We don't have the same interests. When they suggest doing another line of coke and being up all night I tend to look at the watch and worry about being too worn out for yoga class the next day. So I politely refuse and go home. Once this happened and I tasted my drink I noticed that they'd put the drugs in the drink. Something which people of my own cultural background just would never do. This is a culture clash within the same culture. All the people in the above anecdote were Swedish.

This idea that Sweden has just one culture or that there is such a thing as a Swedish culture is retarded. Sweden has many cultures. Thousands of cultures and sub-cultures. Ethnicity and religion is just another one in the bucket. And it's not the most important one. Education is the number one factor for being successful in Sweden. All other considerations are subordinate. And sub-cultures promoting education cuts across all ethnicities. Every country has a minority culture of people who study hard and are successful in life.

Yet just a few people show up who are really different from your 'cultures' and you have an emergence of 'keep them out party'. Imagine if you were among the majority, but within the foreseeable future your majority would become a minority. Shouldn't something more dramatic emerge, say, like racist laws sexist laws, exclusionary culture. I wonder where one can find such things. Certainly not in Sweden or perhaps anywhere in Europe? Its a wonder those trends aren't more extreme here given the diversity of culture and belief. I believe its our size that minimizes the extent to which racism and sexism extends in our society.

 

[4321lynx]

I'm an upper middle class liberal software engineer. My life and my activities are surrounded around my little culture within the culture. Almost all my friends share my (comfortable and affluent) way of life. Me and my friends help each other out in times of need. I don't offer support (or expect support) from all Swedes. Just the Swedes who are like me. Since I'm well travelled, my culture within a culture, is not limited to just Sweden. I belong to a kind of International cosmopolitan tribe. We all share very similar values. I have friends who are political journalists and writers. I almost never disagree with anything they write. Because we're so similar.

Many times I've ended up at parties among working class people. I have almost nothing in common with them. We don't laugh at the same jokes. We don't have the same interests. When they suggest doing another line of coke and being up all night I tend to look at the watch and worry about being too worn out for yoga class the next day. So I politely refuse and go home. Once this happened and I tasted my drink I noticed that they'd put the drugs in the drink. Something which people of my own cultural background just would never do. This is a culture clash within the same culture. All the people in the above anecdote were Swedish.

This idea that Sweden has just one culture or that there is such a thing as a Swedish culture is retarded. Sweden has many cultures. Thousands of cultures and sub-cultures. Ethnicity and religion is just another one in the bucket. And it's not the most important one. Education is the number one factor for being successful in Sweden. All other considerations are subordinate. And sub-cultures promoting education cuts across all ethnicities. Every country has a minority culture of people who study hard and are successful in life.

Yet just a few people show up who are really different from your 'cultures' and you have an emergence of 'keep them out party'. Imagine if you were among the majority, but within the foreseeable future your majority would become a minority. Shouldn't something more dramatic emerge, say, like racist laws sexist laws, exclusionary culture. I wonder where one can find such things. Certainly not in Sweden or perhaps anywhere in Europe? Its a wonder those trends aren't more extreme here given the diversity of culture and belief. I believe its our size that minimizes the extent to which racism and sexism extends in our society.

Where can you find such things?

Just study the history of the region recently known as Yugoslavia.

There a collection of people speaking essentially the same language became converted into 3 different religions, before and shortly after conquest by the Turks. Racially the Turks were always a minority, even if they held all the power. Conquest of the area was a sort of immigration by them. Converts to their religion are now Bosnians, or Kossovians. Two other major groups did not "become Turks like the Bosnians" as the saying goes in those parts and stayed as Catholics - the Croats; or as Orthodox - the Serbs. Now you may remember how well, how peacefully, these people now get on with one another How many times have NATO forces had to intervene?

Of course you will argue about the timing of the differentiation, the level of education of the masses at that time, the difficulty of communication at the time and even now, especially considering the geography of the region etc.

But consideration of that example will shed some light, I hope, into the causes of the sort of thinking and fears about "refugees" and real refugees in Europe. Europe is not all Sweden which is inhabited by phlegmatic Swedes, who are well-off financially, tolerant, educated, mainly agnostic or atheistic or simply indifferent to religion. And I dont think even they would tolerate completely unregulated entry of refugees. Especially in numbers decided on by "Europe", especially if that "Europe" is Germany in the shape of Merkel.

And that does not even consider the avalanche of migrants that would result from allowing unrestricted entry. We are seeing the beginnings of that avalanche in the figures of people coming to the Greek islands this year:-
more than 100,000 in six weeks or so, ten times more than last year. To paraphrase Stalin, one, ten, a thousand refugees -- a tragedy. One , two or three million -- is a statistic, (and a frightening statistic in most of Europe, especially in its South-East and East, or Central, Europe as the East excluding Russia is now so euphemistically called.

 

[TSwizzle]

Anything else you want to assert that goes against evidence?

Storm clouds are gathering in Europe.

 

[bilby]

Anything else you want to assert that goes against evidence?

Storm clouds are gathering in Europe.

That's a good one, because it goes against meteorology too; so it is both figuratively and literally wrong.

Well done.

 

[arkirk]

The U.S. and major European powers seem to be the souce of the weather bringing in this storm cloud. One of the things I find amazing is that when we look at the news, we get lots of stories of tragedy, lots of stories of friction between asylum seekers and natives, and lot of stories of absolute horror in the countries of origin...
This all is in the context of these major nations bombing the shit out of the place and allowing it to drift into total chaos with no chance of anything of a sustaining nature to support the populace of those countries of origin in place. We don't hear anybody making a case for the things those people need in their homeland that we are busy blowing up and insuring that they are not being rebuilt. We justify our actions with those of small time backward hoodlum organizations that murder, rape and enslave. Whenever you bomb any country, you generate the kind of chaos that shelters these violent groups. The answer is and has always been to remove your violence from the area and remove the justification of these hate groups that are so deleterious to human life in the ME. Bring a stop to our continual destruction of these countries and only offer to import humanitarian aide...no more fucking guns and bombs! George Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeldt started this bullshit by murdering perhaps more than a million in Iraq, fucking over their infrastructure, and favoring one type of religious sect over another. Obama, Hollande, etc. just carry on in the old NeoCon tradition and this area continues to erode our social fabric in our own countries...that is where abominations like the Trump candidacy came from. Nobody would even give him half a glance if our two party system started taking care of our people. About all we have that is consistent in terms of politics is people like Sanders and Warren. Everything else seems 100% on board with jingoism, austerity, and rule by force of money or arms.

 

[4321lynx]

Storm clouds are gathering in Europe.

That's a good one, because it goes against meteorology too; so it is both figuratively and literally wrong.

Well done.

How does a Briton, living in Australia know this? Are Brits europeans? Since when? For how much longer?
When I lived there (for 18 years) God was still an Englishman, even if the Passage to India was pretty much pointless unless you looked for honest trade, whatever "honest trade" might be.

 

[whichphilosophy]

All communities will form communities within communities. The Jews kept to themselves as well as interacted with others. Most have done and do this. The problem will arise when a few in a minority community become hostile the other communities. Some Muslims have done this. Some right wing groups have also done this.

The problem unprecedented numbers are being driven into Europe in addition to real refugees is resulting in some issues.

I'm an upper middle class liberal software engineer. My life and my activities are surrounded around my little culture within the culture. Almost all my friends share my (comfortable and affluent) way of life. Me and my friends help each other out in times of need. I don't offer support (or expect support) from all Swedes. Just the Swedes who are like me. Since I'm well travelled, my culture within a culture, is not limited to just Sweden. I belong to a kind of International cosmopolitan tribe. We all share very similar values. I have friends who are political journalists and writers. I almost never disagree with anything they write. Because we're so similar.

Many times I've ended up at parties among working class people. I have almost nothing in common with them. We don't laugh at the same jokes. We don't have the same interests. When they suggest doing another line of coke and being up all night I tend to look at the watch and worry about being too worn out for yoga class the next day. So I politely refuse and go home. Once this happened and I tasted my drink I noticed that they'd put the drugs in the drink. Something which people of my own cultural background just would never do. This is a culture clash within the same culture. All the people in the above anecdote were Swedish.

This idea that Sweden has just one culture or that there is such a thing as a Swedish culture is retarded. Sweden has many cultures. Thousands of cultures and sub-cultures. Ethnicity and religion is just another one in the bucket. And it's not the most important one. Education is the number one factor for being successful in Sweden. All other considerations are subordinate. And sub-cultures promoting education cuts across all ethnicities. Every country has a minority culture of people who study hard and are successful in life.

I've traveled to quite a few countries so I would agree with you. Also we can say that a culture includes what we consider as arts, writing education, traditions, manners, scholarly pursuits and the difference between right and wrong. Within a culture we can describe what is right and wrong. In ISIS cultures, it is okay to kill a person who disagrees with you but not okay to wear a short skirt. However most Muslims do not agree with this. In the West most of us now disagree with the death penalty for solving a crime. In Islamic societies, the relatives may be the ones to decide whether a person is executed for killing a relative. One alternative would be blood money especially if it was an income earner. A key precept in Sharia Civil Law is good faith in Contracts which percolates throughout its written Laws (e.g. UAE Civil Code). Actually in Europe we also use something similar in our dealings which arises out of experience and common sense applied to our systems.

Despite my caution against immigration on recent mass scales, integration is too much of a fascist term since even within our society (as illustrated) we could substitute mentality for culture in some cases or look to values of right and wrong as long as they do not affect other's rights.

 

[whichphilosophy]

That's a good one, because it goes against meteorology too; so it is both figuratively and literally wrong.

Well done.

How does a Briton, living in Australia know this? Are Brits europeans? Since when? For how much longer?
When I lived there (for 18 years) God was still an Englishman, even if the Passage to India was pretty much pointless unless you looked for honest trade, whatever "honest trade" might be.

Nowadays due to India's strict immigration policy you cannot pursue an 'honest trade' unless you have a visa. Illegal immigration is not tolerated and it's the bum's rush for over stayers. In colonial times the purpose of going to India was for exploitation. Now with colonialism gone India is country left for its own nationals to exploit those who have not negotiating powers and are paid bottom dollar for their work.

This has now followed illegal immigrants hoping for better opportunities. However if we look at one town, Southall such migrants end up paying up to £1,000.00 for a few sharing a converted garden shed and illegal off the books jobs. Illegal sweatshops haves sprung up all over the country such as small garment factories, casual labourers (eg unloading trucks for small change) street vendors, fruit pickers and casual labourers.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I'm an upper middle class liberal software engineer. My life and my activities are surrounded around my little culture within the culture. Almost all my friends share my (comfortable and affluent) way of life. Me and my friends help each other out in times of need. I don't offer support (or expect support) from all Swedes. Just the Swedes who are like me. Since I'm well travelled, my culture within a culture, is not limited to just Sweden. I belong to a kind of International cosmopolitan tribe. We all share very similar values. I have friends who are political journalists and writers. I almost never disagree with anything they write. Because we're so similar.

Many times I've ended up at parties among working class people. I have almost nothing in common with them. We don't laugh at the same jokes. We don't have the same interests. When they suggest doing another line of coke and being up all night I tend to look at the watch and worry about being too worn out for yoga class the next day. So I politely refuse and go home. Once this happened and I tasted my drink I noticed that they'd put the drugs in the drink. Something which people of my own cultural background just would never do. This is a culture clash within the same culture. All the people in the above anecdote were Swedish.

This idea that Sweden has just one culture or that there is such a thing as a Swedish culture is retarded. Sweden has many cultures. Thousands of cultures and sub-cultures. Ethnicity and religion is just another one in the bucket. And it's not the most important one. Education is the number one factor for being successful in Sweden. All other considerations are subordinate. And sub-cultures promoting education cuts across all ethnicities. Every country has a minority culture of people who study hard and are successful in life.

Yet just a few people show up who are really different from your 'cultures' and you have an emergence of 'keep them out party'. Imagine if you were among the majority, but within the foreseeable future your majority would become a minority. Shouldn't something more dramatic emerge, say, like racist laws sexist laws, exclusionary culture. I wonder where one can find such things. Certainly not in Sweden or perhaps anywhere in Europe? Its a wonder those trends aren't more extreme here given the diversity of culture and belief. I believe its our size that minimizes the extent to which racism and sexism extends in our society.

You're missing my point. Sweden is full of people with a culture radically different and alien to me. Adding a bunch of Syrians isn't going to change that.

Belonging to "the majority" is what we call an exercise in identity. This is what teenagers struggle so much with. But here's the kicker, identity is fluid and largely arbitrary. Identities can be defined wide or narrow. Usually national identity and majority cultural traits are defined in vague terms, so called "Barnum statements" that fit everybody regardless of culture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnum_effect

But fundamentally all humans are pretty similar. We all want the same things from life. What sets us apart is how we try to get them and how we value those methods. So these cultural differences are pretty superficial, even though they might not seem like that.

I think there's a natural progression of laws toward the liberal. Once a country has accepted a certain freedom they're going to be very reluctant to give it up. Even if Syrians would become the majority ethnic group in Sweden (won't happen, but whatever) I still don't think they'd change the laws to make them more sexist or whatever conservative bullshit you dream up about them.

I should also point out the phenomena where immigrants tend to exaggerate their home culture in the new country. They tend to become caricatures. When I visit Swedes living abroad they do all the Swedish shit nobody likes doing here. Yet, they stick to it religiously. Why? Because it's a source of comfort. But it's just the rituals. The content and meaning of those rituals are completely replaced by the new culture. Just an observation.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I'm an upper middle class liberal software engineer. My life and my activities are surrounded around my little culture within the culture. Almost all my friends share my (comfortable and affluent) way of life. Me and my friends help each other out in times of need. I don't offer support (or expect support) from all Swedes. Just the Swedes who are like me. Since I'm well travelled, my culture within a culture, is not limited to just Sweden. I belong to a kind of International cosmopolitan tribe. We all share very similar values. I have friends who are political journalists and writers. I almost never disagree with anything they write. Because we're so similar.

Many times I've ended up at parties among working class people. I have almost nothing in common with them. We don't laugh at the same jokes. We don't have the same interests. When they suggest doing another line of coke and being up all night I tend to look at the watch and worry about being too worn out for yoga class the next day. So I politely refuse and go home. Once this happened and I tasted my drink I noticed that they'd put the drugs in the drink. Something which people of my own cultural background just would never do. This is a culture clash within the same culture. All the people in the above anecdote were Swedish.

This idea that Sweden has just one culture or that there is such a thing as a Swedish culture is retarded. Sweden has many cultures. Thousands of cultures and sub-cultures. Ethnicity and religion is just another one in the bucket. And it's not the most important one. Education is the number one factor for being successful in Sweden. All other considerations are subordinate. And sub-cultures promoting education cuts across all ethnicities. Every country has a minority culture of people who study hard and are successful in life.

I've traveled to quite a few countries so I would agree with you. Also we can say that a culture includes what we consider as arts, writing education, traditions, manners, scholarly pursuits and the difference between right and wrong. Within a culture we can describe what is right and wrong. In ISIS cultures, it is okay to kill a person who disagrees with you but not okay to wear a short skirt. However most Muslims do not agree with this. In the West most of us now disagree with the death penalty for solving a crime. In Islamic societies, the relatives may be the ones to decide whether a person is executed for killing a relative. One alternative would be blood money especially if it was an income earner. A key precept in Sharia Civil Law is good faith in Contracts which percolates throughout its written Laws (e.g. UAE Civil Code). Actually in Europe we also use something similar in our dealings which arises out of experience and common sense applied to our systems.

Despite my caution against immigration on recent mass scales, integration is too much of a fascist term since even within our society (as illustrated) we could substitute mentality for culture in some cases or look to values of right and wrong as long as they do not affect other's rights.

Death penalty is another one of those that has to do with how late the country industrialised. After industrialisation (ie shift away from a predominantly agrarian economy) it'll take about 150 - 200 years or so. There's a whole bunch of these similar activities. The reason USA still has the death penalty can be explained by the fact that they industrialised later than Europe. And it'll eventually go away.

 

[angelo]

The U.S. and major European powers seem to be the souce of the weather bringing in this storm cloud. One of the things I find amazing is that when we look at the news, we get lots of stories of tragedy, lots of stories of friction between asylum seekers and natives, and lot of stories of absolute horror in the countries of origin...
This all is in the context of these major nations bombing the shit out of the place and allowing it to drift into total chaos with no chance of anything of a sustaining nature to support the populace of those countries of origin in place. We don't hear anybody making a case for the things those people need in their homeland that we are busy blowing up and insuring that they are not being rebuilt. We justify our actions with those of small time backward hoodlum organizations that murder, rape and enslave. Whenever you bomb any country, you generate the kind of chaos that shelters these violent groups. The answer is and has always been to remove your violence from the area and remove the justification of these hate groups that are so deleterious to human life in the ME. Bring a stop to our continual destruction of these countries and only offer to import humanitarian aide...no more fucking guns and bombs! George Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeldt started this bullshit by murdering perhaps more than a million in Iraq, fucking over their infrastructure, and favoring one type of religious sect over another. Obama, Hollande, etc. just carry on in the old NeoCon tradition and this area continues to erode our social fabric in our own countries...that is where abominations like the Trump candidacy came from. Nobody would even give him half a glance if our two party system started taking care of our people. About all we have that is consistent in terms of politics is people like Sanders and Warren. Everything else seems 100% on board with jingoism, austerity, and rule by force of money or arms.

Still blaming the West I see. I agree the invasion of Iraq was a very bad decision by W Bush and his coalition of the willing. But the present turmoil in Syria and Iran, Yemen, etc. is just moslems fighting moslems. The problem is islam, not what W Bush mistakenly did after 9/11.

 

[Jokodo]

I've traveled to quite a few countries so I would agree with you. Also we can say that a culture includes what we consider as arts, writing education, traditions, manners, scholarly pursuits and the difference between right and wrong. Within a culture we can describe what is right and wrong. In ISIS cultures, it is okay to kill a person who disagrees with you but not okay to wear a short skirt. However most Muslims do not agree with this. In the West most of us now disagree with the death penalty for solving a crime. In Islamic societies, the relatives may be the ones to decide whether a person is executed for killing a relative. One alternative would be blood money especially if it was an income earner. A key precept in Sharia Civil Law is good faith in Contracts which percolates throughout its written Laws (e.g. UAE Civil Code). Actually in Europe we also use something similar in our dealings which arises out of experience and common sense applied to our systems.

Despite my caution against immigration on recent mass scales, integration is too much of a fascist term since even within our society (as illustrated) we could substitute mentality for culture in some cases or look to values of right and wrong as long as they do not affect other's rights.

Death penalty is another one of those that has to do with how late the country industrialised. After industrialisation (ie shift away from a predominantly agrarian economy) it'll take about 150 - 200 years or so. There's a whole bunch of these similar activities. The reason USA still has the death penalty can be explained by the fact that they industrialised later than Europe. And it'll eventually go away.

When the US started to industrialise, New Zealand wasn't yet.