Europe submits voluntarily

[DrZoidberg]

Death penalty is another one of those that has to do with how late the country industrialised. After industrialisation (ie shift away from a predominantly agrarian economy) it'll take about 150 - 200 years or so. There's a whole bunch of these similar activities. The reason USA still has the death penalty can be explained by the fact that they industrialised later than Europe. And it'll eventually go away.

When the US started to industrialise, New Zealand wasn't yet.

There's individual variation. But there's a whole bunch of social changes that come as part of the post-industrial package. Death penalty tends to be one of them. The fact that New Zealand is ahead of the curve doesn't disprove this. There's a whole bunch of these. Especially when it comes to things surrounding sexuality or marriage. Post-industrial countries tend to see all life as sacred, precious and worthy of respect just because it exists. Agrarian economies tend to see life as cheap, disposable and value is based on what the person contributes to the community. This is reflected in the social values.

There's more. Agrarian economies are surrounded around the family unit with one head in total control of the families economy. And all the dependents completely at the mercy of this guardian. There's a very obvious hierarchy in society. Everybody has a very rigid duty for their station. Who cares if you're gay? Just get married with a woman anyway and produce off spring. You don't have to like it. Just do it and think of England. Duty.

Industrial economies only have a bunch of nominally free agents who are free to arrange themselves in whatever way suit them individually. And if it doesn't suit them any longer they break the unit.

This to is reflected in social values. The individual and their freedoms is sacred in the post-industrial society. It just isn't in agrarian economies. And these social values is a direct result of the economy. Agrarian economies are very sensitive for change. There's just so much land and it's in nobody's interest to upset the situation. Complete opposite for an industrial economy. The freer the agents the greater the economic value for society as a whole.

It can also be seen in religion. There's a liberalisation of religion that follows this. Initially religion gets increasingly fundamentalist. One explanation is that as the old social structures are torn apart people cling all the more to what vestiges exist of the old. But eventually the fundamentalist religions rapidly collapse and are replaced by liberal religion. This has happened in every western country so far. And Japan. Karen Armstrong explains it really well in her "Battle for God". This explains Muslim fundamentalism in the Middle-East. The radicalisation of Islam nicely follow the pattern of religious extremism in the west. 50-60 years after industrialisation it comes... and then will collapse. So I'm pretty sure that's what's going to happen to ISIS and Iran.

As industrialisation grows stronger and it's values spread in society the more intrinsic human value is upgraded. Eventually it's seen as barbaric to execute people. So it ceases.

 

[TSwizzle]

It can also be seen in religion. There's a liberalisation of religion that follows this. Initially religion gets increasingly fundamentalist. One explanation is that as the old social structures are torn apart people cling all the more to what vestiges exist of the old. But eventually the fundamentalist religions rapidly collapse and are replaced by liberal religion. This has happened in every western country so far. And Japan. Karen Armstrong explains it really well in her "Battle for God".

Karen Armstrong is not an authority on these things. She's a popular hack though.

 

[whichphilosophy]

The U.S. and major European powers seem to be the souce of the weather bringing in this storm cloud. One of the things I find amazing is that when we look at the news, we get lots of stories of tragedy, lots of stories of friction between asylum seekers and natives, and lot of stories of absolute horror in the countries of origin...
This all is in the context of these major nations bombing the shit out of the place and allowing it to drift into total chaos with no chance of anything of a sustaining nature to support the populace of those countries of origin in place. We don't hear anybody making a case for the things those people need in their homeland that we are busy blowing up and insuring that they are not being rebuilt. We justify our actions with those of small time backward hoodlum organizations that murder, rape and enslave. Whenever you bomb any country, you generate the kind of chaos that shelters these violent groups. The answer is and has always been to remove your violence from the area and remove the justification of these hate groups that are so deleterious to human life in the ME. Bring a stop to our continual destruction of these countries and only offer to import humanitarian aide...no more fucking guns and bombs! George Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeldt started this bullshit by murdering perhaps more than a million in Iraq, fucking over their infrastructure, and favoring one type of religious sect over another. Obama, Hollande, etc. just carry on in the old NeoCon tradition and this area continues to erode our social fabric in our own countries...that is where abominations like the Trump candidacy came from. Nobody would even give him half a glance if our two party system started taking care of our people. About all we have that is consistent in terms of politics is people like Sanders and Warren. Everything else seems 100% on board with jingoism, austerity, and rule by force of money or arms.

Still blaming the West I see. I agree the invasion of Iraq was a very bad decision by W Bush and his coalition of the willing. But the present turmoil in Syria and Iran, Yemen, etc. is just moslems fighting moslems. The problem is islam, not what W Bush mistakenly did after 9/11.

The West started to help the loose coalition called the Free Syrian Army, some of whom were radicals and splintered off with our aid. Iran stems back the the brutal dicatatorship of the Shah after the CIA involved itself in overthrowing a democratically elected modern government. Yemen, I don't know but when I was in Abu Dhabi last November 2015, the papers printed the names of several dozen UAE soldiers (perhaps approaching 100) who were killed there. (I can't check the internet as Google is no longer available here in Beijing)

 

[angelo]

The West has to take "some" responsability, but nothing like Arik seems to think.

 

[whichphilosophy]

NOW EVEN IMMIGRANTS ARE AGAINST UNCONTROLLED IMIGRATION

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...in-germany-are-opposed-to-the-refugee-influx/

I've frequently spoken to ethnic minorities who are also wary about the floods of people coming into Europe but this the first time it has been publicized.

Why so many immigrants in Germany are opposed to the refugee influx

I'm not sure I would agree with all the reasons given in the article but generally they kept their cultural and ethnic roots but at the same time appreciated the better conditions and the general acceptance and tolerance they (usually) received from the host countries.

 

[angelo]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...in-germany-are-opposed-to-the-refugee-influx/

I've frequently spoken to ethnic minorities who are also wary about the floods of people coming into Europe but this the first time it has been publicized.

Why so many immigrants in Germany are opposed to the refugee influx

I'm not sure I would agree with all the reasons given in the article but generally they kept their cultural and ethnic roots but at the same time appreciated the better conditions and the general acceptance and tolerance they (usually) received from the host countries.

You're talking about past immigration from Europe, Vietnam, etc which all intergrated within the host country.
The mass immigration today are from backward, almost barbaric cultures of islamic states.
This religious/political system is not compatible with 21st century Western culture.
We ignore this fact at our own peril.

 

[bigfield]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...in-germany-are-opposed-to-the-refugee-influx/

I've frequently spoken to ethnic minorities who are also wary about the floods of people coming into Europe but this the first time it has been publicized.

Why so many immigrants in Germany are opposed to the refugee influx

I'm not sure I would agree with all the reasons given in the article but generally they kept their cultural and ethnic roots but at the same time appreciated the better conditions and the general acceptance and tolerance they (usually) received from the host countries.

You're talking about past immigration from Europe, Vietnam, etc which all intergrated within the host country.
The mass immigration today are from backward, almost barbaric cultures of islamic states.
This religious/political system is not compatible with 21st century Western culture.
We ignore this fact at our own peril.

Ignoring the ravings of fascists produces precisely the opposite of peril.

 

[TSwizzle]

Britain basks in the warmth of diversity;

A Sunni Islam group in the UK has been accused of trying to whip up sectarian animosity against Shia Muslims in the wake of tensions over the execution of the respected Shia cleric, Sheikh Nimr al-Nimr. The organisation, Documenting Oppression Against Muslims (Doam), has posted a series of messages that have been condemned as inflammatory and “unacceptable”. Although the organisation was founded to tackle anti-Muslim prejudice, it has been accused of intra-Muslim bigotry following the execution of the cleric by Saudi Arabia last month.

Shia groups criticised the comments. Kumail Versi, spokesman for the Shia Ithna’ashari community of Middlesex, said: “In today’s world of growing Islamophobia, it is always worrying when a small number of people cause disunity by resorting to sectarian hatred.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/feb/27/sunni-shia-tensions-in-uk"]Guardian[/URL][/URL]

Oh the irony.

 

[bilby]

Britain basks in the warmth of diversity;

A Sunni Islam group in the UK has been accused of trying to whip up sectarian animosity against Shia Muslims in the wake of tensions over the execution of the respected Shia cleric, Sheikh Nimr al-Nimr. The organisation, Documenting Oppression Against Muslims (Doam), has posted a series of messages that have been condemned as inflammatory and “unacceptable”. Although the organisation was founded to tackle anti-Muslim prejudice, it has been accused of intra-Muslim bigotry following the execution of the cleric by Saudi Arabia last month.

Shia groups criticised the comments. Kumail Versi, spokesman for the Shia Ithna’ashari community of Middlesex, said: “In today’s world of growing Islamophobia, it is always worrying when a small number of people cause disunity by resorting to sectarian hatred.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/feb/27/sunni-shia-tensions-in-uk"]Guardian[/URL][/URL]

Oh the irony.

Sounds to me like they fit in very well indeed with British society; their only minor error is to use 'Shia' and Sunni', where a Real Briton^TM would have said 'City' and 'United', or 'Rangers' and 'Celtic', or 'Spurs' and 'Arsenal'.

If you think that blocking immigration can prevent violent disagreements over trivia, then you obviously don't know much about the British way of life.

 

[untermensche]

Why so many immigrants in Germany are opposed to the refugee influx

3 out of 4 are not opposed.

Why is the headline not:

Why so many immigrants in Germany are NOT opposed to the refugee influx.

 

[angelo]

Is that so!
https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-e...-immigration-crisis-and-merkel-s-winter-of-di

 

[DrZoidberg]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...in-germany-are-opposed-to-the-refugee-influx/

I've frequently spoken to ethnic minorities who are also wary about the floods of people coming into Europe but this the first time it has been publicized.

Why so many immigrants in Germany are opposed to the refugee influx

I'm not sure I would agree with all the reasons given in the article but generally they kept their cultural and ethnic roots but at the same time appreciated the better conditions and the general acceptance and tolerance they (usually) received from the host countries.

This is nothing new. Those who look down the most on a minority is usually a member of another minority. Bizarre but old as dirt. This is not news.

 

[whichphilosophy]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...in-germany-are-opposed-to-the-refugee-influx/

I've frequently spoken to ethnic minorities who are also wary about the floods of people coming into Europe but this the first time it has been publicized.

Why so many immigrants in Germany are opposed to the refugee influx

I'm not sure I would agree with all the reasons given in the article but generally they kept their cultural and ethnic roots but at the same time appreciated the better conditions and the general acceptance and tolerance they (usually) received from the host countries.

This is nothing new. Those who look down the most on a minority is usually a member of another minority. Bizarre but old as dirt. This is not news.

The concern is the high volume of people coming in when the country does not have endless jobs to offer. Other countries have stricter laws on migration. Even China has an internal visa system to prevent one billion people ending up in Shanghai, Tianjin and Beijing looking for better jobs.

- - - Updated - - -

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...in-germany-are-opposed-to-the-refugee-influx/

I've frequently spoken to ethnic minorities who are also wary about the floods of people coming into Europe but this the first time it has been publicized.

Why so many immigrants in Germany are opposed to the refugee influx

I'm not sure I would agree with all the reasons given in the article but generally they kept their cultural and ethnic roots but at the same time appreciated the better conditions and the general acceptance and tolerance they (usually) received from the host countries.

You're talking about past immigration from Europe, Vietnam, etc which all intergrated within the host country.
The mass immigration today are from backward, almost barbaric cultures of islamic states.
This religious/political system is not compatible with 21st century Western culture.
We ignore this fact at our own peril.

From a statistical point of view we can't take in high volumes in certain parts of the World. In China as I mentioned in the previous post, its people need visas from one state to another.

 

[bilby]

The number of jobs available in a given area is not a fixed quantity that, if exceeded due to immigration, leads to unemployment for those who didn't have a chair when the music stopped.

The number of jobs in an area is greater for higher population densities - that's why you can't get a job in the middle of the Sahara, despite zero competition; and it is why the Chinese peasants want to go to Shanghai.

The idea that immigrants will take all the jobs is fucking insane. Immigrants (or indeed any people) cause more jobs than they take. That's why if you live in a small village, you have to move to the big city to find work - your chances of finding a job are better the more people there are in your immediate area.

That wasn't true in pre-industrial societies; But it is certainly true now, and has been for 150 years. Cities are where the jobs are, because they are where the people are. More people means MORE jobs, not fewer.

Any area with high net immigration DOES have endless jobs to offer. Observation tells us this; common sense says otherwise, which is why common sense is such a SHIT way of getting to the truth.

 

[TSwizzle]

An imam in Denmark has sparked outrage after being caught on camera preaching that women who commit adultery should be stoned to death.
Abu Bilal Ismail was secretly filmed while giving a lecture on the appropriate punishment for cheating wives and girlfriends at the Grimhoj Mosque in the city of Aarhus. Broadcast on local TV2, Ismail says: 'If a married or divorced woman engages in fornication, and she is not a virgin, she should be stoned to death.

Daily Mail

Social Democrats spokesman Dan Jorgensen told TV2: 'This is deeply, deeply unacceptable. That there are even people like this that have these kinds of ideas is insane.'

Mr Jorgensen sounds genuinely surprised.

And Marcus Knuth from the ruling Venstre party told the broadcaster: 'What is so shocking is that there are so many cases involving this mosque and that they just keep coming. That is almost the worst thing – that they haven't learned anything and still practise these types of things and encourage this Stone Age behaviour.'

Poor Mr Knuth is in for a rude awakening.


And the best bit.

A spokesman for the Mosque, El-Saadi, said: 'We believe in Islam as it is, but as our imam says we live in Denmark, where there is freedom, and we follow Danish rules and Danish laws. So stoning and whipping aren't valid in Denmark.'

Don't worry agent El-Saadi, the reinforcements are on their way, Merkel is waving them through.

 

[bilby]

Daily Mail

Social Democrats spokesman Dan Jorgensen told TV2: 'This is deeply, deeply unacceptable. That there are even people like this that have these kinds of ideas is insane.'

Mr Jorgensen sounds genuinely surprised.

And Marcus Knuth from the ruling Venstre party told the broadcaster: 'What is so shocking is that there are so many cases involving this mosque and that they just keep coming. That is almost the worst thing – that they haven't learned anything and still practise these types of things and encourage this Stone Age behaviour.'

Poor Mr Knuth is in for a rude awakening.


And the best bit.

A spokesman for the Mosque, El-Saadi, said: 'We believe in Islam as it is, but as our imam says we live in Denmark, where there is freedom, and we follow Danish rules and Danish laws. So stoning and whipping aren't valid in Denmark.'

Don't worry agent El-Saadi, the reinforcements are on their way, Merkel is waving them through.

There are fuckwits everywhere. Their existence tells us fuck all about whether immigration is good, bad or indifferent.

http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/davidbadash/christian_pastor_says_gays_worthy_of_death_at_conference_with_3_gop_presidential_candidates

Or perhaps the Danes should make sure that Americans can't enter their country too.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The number of jobs available in a given area is not a fixed quantity that, if exceeded due to immigration, leads to unemployment for those who didn't have a chair when the music stopped.

The number of jobs in an area is greater for higher population densities - that's why you can't get a job in the middle of the Sahara, despite zero competition; and it is why the Chinese peasants want to go to Shanghai.

The idea that immigrants will take all the jobs is fucking insane. Immigrants (or indeed any people) cause more jobs than they take. That's why if you live in a small village, you have to move to the big city to find work - your chances of finding a job are better the more people there are in your immediate area.

That wasn't true in pre-industrial societies; But it is certainly true now, and has been for 150 years. Cities are where the jobs are, because they are where the people are. More people means MORE jobs, not fewer.

Any area with high net immigration DOES have endless jobs to offer. Observation tells us this; common sense says otherwise, which is why common sense is such a SHIT way of getting to the truth.

The problem with this is that H1-Bs are not fair competition. Screw an American, he will probably do something about it. Screw a H1-B and he'll probably put up with it.

 

[bilby]

The number of jobs available in a given area is not a fixed quantity that, if exceeded due to immigration, leads to unemployment for those who didn't have a chair when the music stopped.

The number of jobs in an area is greater for higher population densities - that's why you can't get a job in the middle of the Sahara, despite zero competition; and it is why the Chinese peasants want to go to Shanghai.

The idea that immigrants will take all the jobs is fucking insane. Immigrants (or indeed any people) cause more jobs than they take. That's why if you live in a small village, you have to move to the big city to find work - your chances of finding a job are better the more people there are in your immediate area.

That wasn't true in pre-industrial societies; But it is certainly true now, and has been for 150 years. Cities are where the jobs are, because they are where the people are. More people means MORE jobs, not fewer.

Any area with high net immigration DOES have endless jobs to offer. Observation tells us this; common sense says otherwise, which is why common sense is such a SHIT way of getting to the truth.

The problem with this is that H1-Bs are not fair competition. Screw an American, he will probably do something about it. Screw a H1-B and he'll probably put up with it.

There is not a single person working in Europe on an H1-B visa; And refugees are not taking skilled jobs; they are taking whatever jobs they can get; so whatever point you are seeking to make is a long way off topic.

 

[angelo]

He also fails to add that most immigrants from the moslem states are on unemployment benefits.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Yesterday I was in Denmark for the day. Went back to Sweden in the evening. Those identity checks are a total nightmare. The infrastructure isn't built for it. So they had to come up with a bunch of ad-hoc solutions. Wow that was annoying. Added almost an hour extra travel time. Complete bullshit. Lots of people live in Sweden and work in Denmark. So that bullshit every single day. Soon they're removing it, just because it fucks shit up so much. Companies are complaining how they're being hit.

- - - Updated - - -

He also fails to add that most immigrants from the moslem states are on unemployment benefits.

Utter bullshit