Europe submits voluntarily

[untermensche]

Japan and China have eyes.

They know this is a Western created crisis. The West does not want to live up to it's responsibilities. As Colin Powell said, "You break it, you own it."

Japan and China did not invade Iraq and blow up the region.

 

[fromderinside]

I really have problems with "you break it you own it". That may work in a business where customers risk ownership if they damage merchandise.

Nations are different in that each has agency. If one nation breaks international rules other nations have options including removing the government of that nation else there wouldn't be need for military and defense. So the nation that broke the rules owns its consequences. Can't fix it? Tough.

I do feel a twinge of pity for those neighboring the broken nation who partnered with the strong military nation to remove the problem government. In the end they are responsible for consequence in their nations having helped make the area more volatile. But only a twinge. After all they are also responsible for their actions and consequences.

Powell is wrong.

 

[untermensche]

Nations are different in that each has agency. If one nation breaks international rules other nations have options including removing the government of that nation else there wouldn't be need for military and defense. So the nation that broke the rules owns its consequences. Can't fix it? Tough.

What are you talking about?

Do you mean like when the US breaks all international rules and invades Iraq?

 

[TSwizzle]

Sounds about right;

Russia is trying to topple Angela Merkel by waging an information war designed to stir up anger in Germany over refugees, Nato’s most senior expert on strategic communications has claimed. The attempt to provoke the removal of the German leader, who has been a strong supporter of sanctions against Vladimir Putin’s regime, is said to have been identified by Nato analysts.

Guardian

Europe will fall sooner or later.

 

[bilby]

Sounds about right;

Russia is trying to topple Angela Merkel by waging an information war designed to stir up anger in Germany over refugees, Nato’s most senior expert on strategic communications has claimed. The attempt to provoke the removal of the German leader, who has been a strong supporter of sanctions against Vladimir Putin’s regime, is said to have been identified by Nato analysts.

Guardian

Europe will fall sooner or later.

True. But not a useful prediction.

You will die sooner or later. I doubt that this information is helpful to you in any way.

 

[angelo]

At the present rate, Europe will became Euroarabia by the turn of the century at the latest.

 

[Bomb#20]

In sociology there's a rule of thumb about immigration. Immigrants retain their culture when moving to the new culture. Those behaviours that are inferior to the receiving culture will be dropped. Those behaviours that are superior to the receiving culture will be retained and spread.

Funny story about that. In sociology there's also a rule of thumb about inferior and superior behaviors: that inferior and superior can't be judged cross-culturally. So do you have empirical evidence that those behaviors that are inferior to the receiving culture will be dropped and those behaviors that are superior to the receiving culture will be retained and spread? Or do you just have the word of some sociologist who can't tell the difference between science and cheerleading?

Bottom line, we need to worry less and just let people get on with life. Just get out of people's way as much as possible. Let them do their thing and trust people's ability to figure out what is best for them.

Wow, what a concept!

China also has a policy of keeping islam out of their country, as has Japan. Do they know something the Westerners don't?

Oh, come on. The Chinese resistance against Islam is just pure racism.

The Chinese government doesn't even want more Chinese people, but their resistance to importing Muslims couldn't possibly be due to their not perceiving any way they'll benefit from more people and more Islam; no, it's pure racism.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...in-germany-are-opposed-to-the-refugee-influx/

I've frequently spoken to ethnic minorities who are also wary about the floods of people coming into Europe but this the first time it has been publicized.

Why so many immigrants in Germany are opposed to the refugee influx

I'm not sure I would agree with all the reasons given in the article but generally they kept their cultural and ethnic roots but at the same time appreciated the better conditions and the general acceptance and tolerance they (usually) received from the host countries.

This is nothing new. Those who look down the most on a minority is usually a member of another minority. Bizarre but old as dirt. This is not news.

From the linked article:

"Muslim migrants, particularly, fear that the influx of refugees could have negative repercussions for them -- both economically as well as on a more subtle level."

But no, just as with China, you have somehow divined that more refugees can only benefit the immigrants who are already there; so the immigrants can't possibly oppose the influx out of sheer self-interest; so you deduce that it must be because the immigrants look down on them. Good god, man, do you even listen to yourself? The reality is, you trust people's ability to figure out what is best for them right up until the moment they decide what's best for them is something you disapprove of. Then you turn into a complete paternalist. Doesn't the flipflopping make your head spin?

 

[whichphilosophy]

Why won't people acknowledge that the problem in the world today is islam! Has been so for 1400 years!

It was previously Christianity for a considerable time. Islamic hostility only spread after we interfered in the Middle East and took sides in various conflicts. Before they they were happy at war with each other.

The problem is perhaps not 'Islam' but some Muslims.

A very few instigate problems. Mass immigration may have assisted by way of a percentage of rotten apples.

 

[barbos]

Sounds about right;

Russia is trying to topple Angela Merkel by waging an information war designed to stir up anger in Germany over refugees, Nato’s most senior expert on strategic communications has claimed. The attempt to provoke the removal of the German leader, who has been a strong supporter of sanctions against Vladimir Putin’s regime, is said to have been identified by Nato analysts.

Guardian

Europe will fall sooner or later.

The Irony here is that it all started when West (US mostly) tried to topple Putin.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Sounds about right;



Guardian

Europe will fall sooner or later.

The Irony here is that it all started when West (US mostly) tried to topple Putin.

The sanctions against Russian financial institutions don't seem to have worked. China can provide any loans where required.

 

[DrZoidberg]

At the present rate, Europe will became Euroarabia by the turn of the century at the latest.

Ha ha ha. Use of the word "Eurorabia" is a sure fire way to spot a loon in this debate. Anders Behring Breivik used that term heavily in his manifesto. Which I have read and is the ravings of a madman. Quite literally.

The amusing thing about this right wing critique against Muslim immigration (Eurorabia) is that is usually puts liberals in the same conspiracy. So it's having liberals conspiring for conservatism. Also, it's a pretty safe place to argue from. Whenever there's a liberal change then we're edging nearer to Eurorabia. And whenever it's a change toward conservatism then it's evidence of Muslim values being imposed. Watertight, yet retarded, logic.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Funny story about that. In sociology there's also a rule of thumb about inferior and superior behaviors: that inferior and superior can't be judged cross-culturally. So do you have empirical evidence that those behaviors that are inferior to the receiving culture will be dropped and those behaviors that are superior to the receiving culture will be retained and spread? Or do you just have the word of some sociologist who can't tell the difference between science and cheerleading?

Sociologists aren't all cultural relativists. Which is what it looks like you're assuming. There are superior and inferior cultural expressions. It's actually often measurable. "Culture" is just a word for everything we do. People have goals in life. Habits that support and aid your ability to reach those goals are superior. Habits that sabotage your ability to reach those goals are inferior. Names is a classic. If your parents followed their cultural norms for picking names so that your name sounds foreign you're less likely to get hired for a job. So that's an inferior tactic if the goal with life is to be financially successful. Which isn't always the case for everybody.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ruchika...ing-name-change-it-to-get-a-job/#306d66495f21

Every cultural expression can be picked apart and studied. Some results are less clear than my example with names. But it can, and has, been studied a lot.

Bottom line, we need to worry less and just let people get on with life. Just get out of people's way as much as possible. Let them do their thing and trust people's ability to figure out what is best for them.

Wow, what a concept!

That's me, a radical.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why won't people acknowledge that the problem in the world today is islam! Has been so for 1400 years!

It was previously Christianity for a considerable time. Islamic hostility only spread after we interfered in the Middle East and took sides in various conflicts. Before they they were happy at war with each other.

The problem is perhaps not 'Islam' but some Muslims.

A very few instigate problems. Mass immigration may have assisted by way of a percentage of rotten apples.

Islam was hostile from day 1. It just didn't reach European lands immediately.

 

[DrZoidberg]

It was previously Christianity for a considerable time. Islamic hostility only spread after we interfered in the Middle East and took sides in various conflicts. Before they they were happy at war with each other.

The problem is perhaps not 'Islam' but some Muslims.

A very few instigate problems. Mass immigration may have assisted by way of a percentage of rotten apples.

Islam was hostile from day 1. It just didn't reach European lands immediately.

Back in the day there was no difference between religion and politics. Right up until the European Enlightenment all religion often turned violent and aggressive when real politik demanded it. Nero didn't persecute Christians because he was a dick. He may have been a dick anyway, but Christians were an actual threat to his power and he responded to that threat. There's several examples of the Tibetan Dalai Lama ordering punitive genocides on non-cooperative subject peoples. "Holy men", they're all the same.

So, yeah... Islam has been hostile from day one. But so has all other religions. The rapid spread of Islam wasn't so much the result of Islam being overly aggressive as them just filling a Middle-Eastern power vacuum left behind by the Byzantines and the Persians.

 

[Bomb#20]

Why won't people acknowledge that the problem in the world today is islam! Has been so for 1400 years!

It was previously Christianity for a considerable time. Islamic hostility only spread after we interfered in the Middle East and took sides in various conflicts. Before they they were happy at war with each other.

Muslim conquest of North Africa: 647–709
Muslim conquest of Spain: 711-788
Muslim attempted conquest of France: 719-759
Western interference in the Middle East: 1096-1487

788 < 1096

And children in history class say dates don't matter.

 

[Bomb#20]

Sociologists aren't all cultural relativists. Which is what it looks like you're assuming. There are superior and inferior cultural expressions. It's actually often measurable. "Culture" is just a word for everything we do. People have goals in life. Habits that support and aid your ability to reach those goals are superior. Habits that sabotage your ability to reach those goals are inferior. Names is a classic. If your parents followed their cultural norms for picking names so that your name sounds foreign you're less likely to get hired for a job. So that's an inferior tactic if the goal with life is to be financially successful. Which isn't always the case for everybody.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ruchika...ing-name-change-it-to-get-a-job/#306d66495f21

Every cultural expression can be picked apart and studied. Some results are less clear than my example with names. But it can, and has, been studied a lot.

Your link is refusing to display in my browser. Does it contain statistics showing that Muslim immigrants to Europe are usually changing their names and/or giving their children European-sounding names? And, more to the point for the issues of this thread, do you have evidence that Muslims in Europe are usually abandoning their culture's traditional misogyny?

Bottom line, we need to worry less and just let people get on with life. Just get out of people's way as much as possible. Let them do their thing and trust people's ability to figure out what is best for them.

Wow, what a concept!

That's me, a radical.

Not radical at all. A bloody good idea. I was pointing out that you preach it but you don't practice it.

 

[bilby]

At the present rate, Europe will became Euroarabia by the turn of the century at the latest.

More ownership of means of production!

Forward to the future!

Keep Britain Tidy!

Shave and a haircut, two bits!

Bald statement with zero support nor even any real content used as a slogan to sway the gullible!

 

[untermensche]

It was previously Christianity for a considerable time. Islamic hostility only spread after we interfered in the Middle East and took sides in various conflicts. Before they they were happy at war with each other.

The problem is perhaps not 'Islam' but some Muslims.

A very few instigate problems. Mass immigration may have assisted by way of a percentage of rotten apples.

Islam was hostile from day 1. It just didn't reach European lands immediately.

What was day 1 of Islam?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Your link is refusing to display in my browser. Does it contain statistics showing that Muslim immigrants to Europe are usually changing their names and/or giving their children European-sounding names? And, more to the point for the issues of this thread, do you have evidence that Muslims in Europe are usually abandoning their culture's traditional misogyny?

It's Forbes magazine. It's a reputable source. That's why I used that link. Why not try in another browser? I promise they won't install viruses.

I don't buy that there's traditional Islamic misogyny. I haven't seen any tangible evidence that they're more misogynist than Europeans. Or to put it differently, I don't know what anecdotal evidence I'm made aware of is the result of skewed reporting. I've met plenty of misogynist Swedes. They exist. Are we blind to Swedish misogynists but react to Muslim because that fits our (Islamophobic) narrative? Before I believe it I want to see some actual numbers (that hold up under scrutiny).

I've argued before that countries with a predominantly agrarian economy are more misogynist than industrial economies. As countries transition from one economy to another their countries gender roles are reformed. The Middle-East didn't really start to industrialise seriously until the 70'ies. So they have a misogyny to reflect that. But once people from there are moved here we should see those ("traditional") misogynist values melt away. If not within the first generation, then certainly in the next. Every example of Islamic misogyny we criticise them for is practices that we did in Sweden a hundred years ago. Even in the 50'ies in Sweden things were pretty bad. Feminism has transformed this place pretty rapidly. If we can change just within a couple of generations, then obviously Islamic immigrants can to.

Annecdotaly that's what I've seen. I've a friend who's father is from Cameroon. I've spoken to him and we've laughed about how he'd never be able to be this liberal in his home country. How his values have changed radically. He's now an extremely liberal guy married to a typical militantly feminist strong Swedish woman. All there three kids, all super liberal. I have more example. Obviously my selection is biased since I don't have conservative friends. So I'm not likely to meet people like it. But my girlfriends father is deeply conservative and in my opinion misogynist like a mofo. He's super Swedish, way back, as if sprung from the earth itself. What's his excuse?

Bottom line, we need to worry less and just let people get on with life. Just get out of people's way as much as possible. Let them do their thing and trust people's ability to figure out what is best for them.

Wow, what a concept!

That's me, a radical.

Not radical at all. A bloody good idea. I was pointing out that you preach it but you don't practice it.

What do you mean?

 

[metacristi]

At the present rate, Europe will became Euroarabia by the turn of the century at the latest.

Mass immigration can create huge problems even when people hold the same values but if one adds here big cultural differences (and little capacity to accept important change along modern values) we have the perfect recipe for disaster, so I'm afraid that scenario may be right (in the weakest sense yes Eurabia is yielding peacefully to defective, proven so, Islamic values even if no one conspired to this).

The big problem I see (I leave the economic factor aside) with the current approach is the set of values around which we want to create a better world. I'm afraid we are on a completely wrong path, values incompatible with modernity should not be given basically free pass (under the umbrella 'is their culture, who are us to judge?') in the vain hope that things will be better in the future. Postmodernist 'certitudes' that islam leads to the same practical attitudes (at the average level) should be abandoned.

EU (the West in general) should defend much more sternly its culture for there is ample evidence that it offers the best alternative at this time toward creating a much better future (albeit far from perfection). Additionally no one should be ashamed to point out, rationally, entirely via argument, the very problematic nature of some values accepted by other cultures (or minorities). Especially Islamic ones*.

In short if Europe will be able to leave aside the many platitudes about the immigrants (especially muslims, anyways the vast majority today) it will probably manage to create a healthy society, stable on long term, even with some mass immigration (limited by the economic factor of course). Otherwise the results of the blunders of today will be evident for our followers. When, I'm afraid, only fight could stop the slide toward the past.

Personally I am not that sceptical, people began to wake up these days, there is a perfectly valid criticism of islam having nothing in common with 'bigotry' or 'far right', but if something better is to come we have to act on the lines presented above. Like in the fight with Bolshevism Europe should show clearly that Islam does not 'work' in public area. Continuing with the same cultural relativist / postmodernist / 'postcolonial studies' narrative leads nowhere I'm afraid.


*Why Islam needs a transformation now
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/uploads/Documents/pubs/IvoryTowers.pdf