Europe submits voluntarily

[dystopian]

Well, what do expect? That they should found new cities in the wilderness?

What equalizes things is the school system, by the third generation the kids have intergrated, but if numbers are large enough to demand their own schools, then language, religion and everything stays old world. Pockets are not good for multicultural societies.

That's what multiculturalism means, and that's why I'd object to it. The American melting pot ideal is superior IMO.

The American system isn´t actually any different, y´know. You have the exact same sort of arabic language islamic schools in the US as you have in Europe, and ethnic groups tend to cluster in specific areas the same as they do in Europe. These things are just more noticeable here because our arab/islamic population is much bigger. A lot´s been said about the differences between ´multiculturalism´ and the ´melting pot´, but I´ve never actually seen any clearly defined dividing lines between the two other than the outcome, which is problematic since multiculturalism is much more recent than the mass immigration to the US, and thus we can´t really compare the outcomes (especially since the US mass immigration caused many of the same problems and sentiments European countries are facing today). All said and done, it doesn´t seem as if the Americans aren´t doing any fundamentally different from what we are.

 

[barbos]

Canada has about 1 person for every 6 square miles....but where do all immigrants end up? Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver. Because of large numbers, new Canadians often don't learn English or French, cultures, traditions or ethics that are traditionally Canadian. What we have are small pockets of other cultures from the nations they originated. What equalizes things is the school system, by the third generation the kids have intergrated, but if numbers are large enough to demand their own schools, then language, religion and everything stays old world. Pockets are not good for multicultural societies.

Agreed: you should ban French in Quebec.

Not a good idea because they will conduct a referendum and and join Russia France

 

[Bomb#20]

Nothing as reliable as a thread about immigrants to get people who purport to be liberals, or to value basic democratic principles, to show their true colors.

True, that. So do you think the number of refugees that Hungary accepts should be decided by (a) having Hungary's elected politicians pick a number they think would be satisfactory to the majority of the people of Hungary, or (b) having the Hungarian people vote on it themselves, or (c) some other procedure?

 

[Jokodo]

So what, you're still applying two different standards. Hungarian refugees are people who deserve to be treated humanely, while Syrian "refugees" are "people" who better shut up when they're treated as cage animals, and when they don't, you call them obnoxious.

Yes, <snip>

Thanks for going on record agreeing that Syrians aren't really people.

No further questions.

 

[barbos]

Yes, <snip>

Thanks for going on record agreeing that Syrians aren't really people.

No further questions.

Yes, russians are also not people according to you and I don't see you making fuss about it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The point is the root source for this issue is a paper far more interested in ideology than truth--there's no point in paying attention to it.



They're throwing away their IDs because it makes it all but impossible to deport them. All the more reason to think they're economic migrants, not true refugees.

It's likely that most stories are written in the editors office. However if there were people coming into the UAE, I would know it because I am employed from there. There are no immigrants or Asylum seekers in the UAE and the press did not give any indication of such.
True under UAE law if a person doesn't have ID and conveniently forgets his name and birthday, deportation is very unlikely.

I was talking about Europe, not the UAE.

The thing about destroying your ID is that if the government doesn't know where to deport you to they can't very well deport you.

 

[arkirk]

I know, that is exactly what Warpoet was saying. You do show your true colors. Also your description of liberals and conservatives, while catchy especially to those who think as you do is about as accurate as Loren says UNHCR data is. Caring about people is not an abstraction. That is only in the minds of people who haven't done much caring about people.

No, that's not what he was saying. And it was not my description, it was a scientific study which came to such description.

As for true colors, I would like to know what our "true" liberals actually did to help refugees, because as study suggests most liberals are mostly words and no hard work

The "study" was about as "scientific" as phrenology ...come on do you not know what a politically motivated statement looks like when you see one. "Most liberals are mostly words and no hard work." That is a ridiculous statement and about as far from science as you can get. I can understand YOU being drawn to such statements and even believing them...but they are pure opinion.

 

[arkirk]

Thanks for going on record agreeing that Syrians aren't really people.

No further questions.

Yes, russians are also not people according to you and I don't see you making fuss about it.

There you go again. You also have labeled all liberals as not really people..."just words." You shrug off far too many people to ever make any claim to being a fair minded person. I know many Russians and a few Syrians I suppose they can just shrug you off as just being a right wing "word" and definitely not a human being. Can't you see where this is taking you...and the rest of us?

 

[fromderinside]

Nothing as reliable as a thread about immigrants to get people who purport to be liberals, or to value basic democratic principles, to show their true colors.

True, that. So do you think the number of refugees that Hungary accepts should be decided by (a) having Hungary's elected politicians pick a number they think would be satisfactory to the majority of the people of Hungary, or (b) having the Hungarian people vote on it themselves, or (c) some other procedure?

Uh, because migrants are a hot button issue we're going to consider moving from having republican form of democratic government (constitution and indirect voting for leaders and legislators who decide policy) to direct democracy (perhaps no constitution either) form of government (put everything on the ballot for policy).

Our true colors are simply live and let live with an emphasis on the state being blind to differences and encouraging citizens to be so also.

A nation isn't an economic system. Its a pact among individuals to get along with each other.

 

[Jokodo]

Thanks for going on record agreeing that Syrians aren't really people.

No further questions.

Yes, russians are also not people according to you and I don't see you making fuss about it.

If two million Russians were encamped in tent cities in Turkey with no perspective to either return or to integrate in Turkish society, and those who tried to make it to Western Europe were treated as animals by some countries, and living under the constant threat of being deported back to those very countries in the others, I would make a fuss about it.

 

[TSwizzle]

Looks like Germany has had a crashing dose of reality as they appear to be closing borders and thinking about sending troops to help. I doubt this will do much to stem the flow of "refugees" showing up and demanding asylum though.

 

[Bomb#20]

True, that. So do you think the number of refugees that Hungary accepts should be decided by (a) having Hungary's elected politicians pick a number they think would be satisfactory to the majority of the people of Hungary, or (b) having the Hungarian people vote on it themselves, or (c) some other procedure?

Uh, because migrants are a hot button issue we're going to consider moving from having republican form of democratic government (constitution and indirect voting for leaders and legislators who decide policy) to direct democracy (perhaps no constitution either) form of government (put everything on the ballot for policy).

Okay, I'll take the substance of your submission as an indication that I should put you down for (a); and I'll take the sarcasm as an indication that you thought I was advocating direct democracy. No, I was simply offering it to Warpoet as one of the two options consistent with basic democratic principles, to see whether he'd pick one of them, as opposed to picking option (c). If you think option (b) isn't consistent with basic democratic principles, I don't see why you'd think that. Lots of democratic countries decide lots of questions by referendum; and this hardly commits them either to putting everything on the ballot or to having no constitutions. Constitutional courts can overturn referenda as easily as they can overturn acts of legislatures; and they've done so.

Our true colors are simply live and let live with an emphasis on the state being blind to differences and encouraging citizens to be so also.

If you're suggesting that a government should be blind to the difference between citizens and non-citizens to whatever extent it can, with the unavoidable implication that it should collect most of its revenue from citizens but spend most of its outlays for the benefit of foreigners, and that a government should react to its citizens' inevitable disapproval of this policy, not by adopting a different policy that won't get its officials tossed out on their asses at the next election, but by lecturing its citizens about their duty to become sacrificial lambs on the altar of a state religion it labels "simply live and let live", is that a "basic democratic principle"?

A nation isn't an economic system. Its a pact among individuals to get along with each other.

And what does this pact commit a nation's individuals to do in the event that the majority of the individuals think bringing in a new large minority group all at once won't help them get along with each other?

 

[Jayjay]

Europe needs to realize that the Dublin treaty isn't working. It puts undue pressure on border nations, and encourages people smuggling within EU. I think a couple of things should be done:

Establish EU-run network of asylum seeking bureocracy. Fund the temporary centers in the border countries, but once they get there, let them apply for residence to any country they wish. If asylum is granted, the decision where to locate the refugee is granted based on personal wishes of both the refugee and the countries taking them in. If application is not granted, ship them off to where they came from.

Also, EU should set up centers within the refugee camps in Turkey and Lebanon for processing asylum applications. That way most people wouldn't have to bother paying people smugglers just to find out that they can't get in.

 

[Trausti]

Looks like Germany has had a crashing dose of reality as they appear to be closing borders and thinking about sending troops to help. I doubt this will do much to stem the flow of "refugees" showing up and demanding asylum though.

At some point even the Gutmensch realize that pathological altruism is not a good thing. Too bad it took this long for them to get a clue.

 

[Turambar]

Germany you are doing it wrong: Learn from the US, there are no crowds waiting for all the migrants crossing illegally across te Mexican border with welcome signs, free food and clothing. That's how you raise lazy people, you have to let them on their own. Let them work themselves up from the bottom of society with no handouts, deport or incarcerate the bad apples with draconian laws and indoctrinate the children from a very young age at public schools and through media so they love patriotic symbols. That's how you assimilate migrants.

 

[barbos]

Yes, russians are also not people according to you and I don't see you making fuss about it.

If two million Russians were encamped in tent cities in Turkey with no perspective to either return or to integrate in Turkish society, and those who tried to make it to Western Europe were treated as animals by some countries, and living under the constant threat of being deported back to those very countries in the others, I would make a fuss about it.

There were more than 2 millions russians living in horrible conditions, yet EU/US would not let them in.
There are different standards for EU people and non-EU people.

 

[barbos]

No, that's not what he was saying. And it was not my description, it was a scientific study which came to such description.

As for true colors, I would like to know what our "true" liberals actually did to help refugees, because as study suggests most liberals are mostly words and no hard work

The "study" was about as "scientific" as phrenology ...come on do you not know what a politically motivated statement looks like when you see one. "Most liberals are mostly words and no hard work." That is a ridiculous statement and about as far from science as you can get. I can understand YOU being drawn to such statements and even believing them...but they are pure opinion.

Well, article did not say that, I said that and I am sorry if I offended anyone but it is consistent with their findings which frankly is not surprising at all.
Oh, just yesterday I read a study which found that socially liberal but fiscally conservative are smarter than the rest.

 

[barbos]

Europe needs to realize that the Dublin treaty isn't working. It puts undue pressure on border nations, and encourages people smuggling within EU. I think a couple of things should be done:

Establish EU-run network of asylum seeking bureocracy. Fund the temporary centers in the border countries, but once they get there, let them apply for residence to any country they wish. If asylum is granted, the decision where to locate the refugee is granted based on personal wishes of both the refugee and the countries taking them in. If application is not granted, ship them off to where they came from.

Also, EU should set up centers within the refugee camps in Turkey and Lebanon for processing asylum applications. That way most people wouldn't have to bother paying people smugglers just to find out that they can't get in.

I agree, seems like a good plan. Also refugees must tell the country of their origin otherwise they will be deported to likely country of origin, and if they lie and it is later discovered, they are deported.

 

[bilby]

The "study" was about as "scientific" as phrenology ...come on do you not know what a politically motivated statement looks like when you see one. "Most liberals are mostly words and no hard work." That is a ridiculous statement and about as far from science as you can get. I can understand YOU being drawn to such statements and even believing them...but they are pure opinion.

Well, article did not say that, I said that and I am sorry if I offended anyone but it is consistent with their findings which frankly is not surprising at all.
Oh, just yesterday I read a study which found that socially liberal but fiscally conservative are smarter than the rest.

Just yesterday I read a study that found that claiming support from un-referenced studies on the Internet was completely valueless, as to the reader they are indistinguishable from shit that was just made up by the person posting.

It also said that men who are socially liberal but fiscally conservative have small penises.

 

[barbos]

Well, article did not say that, I said that and I am sorry if I offended anyone but it is consistent with their findings which frankly is not surprising at all.
Oh, just yesterday I read a study which found that socially liberal but fiscally conservative are smarter than the rest.

Just yesterday I read a study that found that claiming support from un-referenced studies on the Internet was completely valueless, as to the reader they are indistinguishable from shit that was just made up by the person posting.

It also said that men who are socially liberal but fiscally conservative have small penises.

Are you accusing me of lying? Are you fiscally liberal or something?