Europe submits voluntarily

[bigfield]

<delete>

 

[DrZoidberg]

Would that explain the turmoil in most muslim majority countries?

Because Muslim majority countries largely coincide with the remnants of the Ottoman empire. When empires collapses it can be messy for a long time. Case in point, the Russian empire collapsed about the same time as the Ottoman did. It's still a mess. Are you going to blame Russias political problems on Islam as well? Was the Dark Ages following the fall of Rome also because of Islam?

Indonesia is suffering from similar political struggles all post colonial countries struggle with. Ie trying to modernise without it looking like them losing their national identity, ie extending the colonisation by other means.

It's important to realise and accept that liberal democracies and industrialisation are both fairly new things. Large parts of Africa have transformed from iron age economies to modern one's in under half a century. Any social change creates political instability. Europe or USA have never had to deal with social change of this speed and magnitude. Throw into the mix a century of colonisation.

I'm often amazed at how well the developing world are coping. Relatively speaking. When Europe made the same transition we had periods of extreme degrees of instability and violence, that they've thankfully mostly been spared from.

Basically, give them a break and applaud them for when they do succeed. Do not apply double standards.

 

[DrZoidberg]

BTW, in times of upheaval and social change people tend to cling to religion. In times of stability and peace, not so much. When this life sucks people tend to focus on having a better afterlife. Solution = help them make this life suck less.

So I suggest turning the cause and effect around. The rise in fundamentalism is a side-effect of the problems. Not the other way around.

 

[TSwizzle]

That's because you are wearing blinkers coupled with addled thinking and viewing things from the comfort of your secular armchair. The people that live with these things don't have that luxury.


Says the man who knows nothing about it.

You sure are demonstrating your lack of understanding of it.

I'm demonstrating what is actually going on in the real world which you try to wave away with agrarian blah de blah blah blah.

What I'm arguing against is that it's the religion that makes them this way.

Of course it is, what a stupid thing to say.

I see Islam more as pants with flares. It's identity. And it's harmless.

This is quite possibly even more stupid than your earlier statement. Flares ?!! LOL, get a grip and stop. That's a belter.

Just to clarify. I don't think belief in God is harmless, or membership of a theistic religion. I think it is very bad. But it's the credulous adult infantilisation that's the problem. People simplifying the world to help them find comfort, to the point where they're only making the world more dangerous. But which religion they pick, I think is irrelevant. And I think organised theism is just as bad as unorganised theism (for example New Age or hippies).

Harmless, not harmless ? Pick one ffs.

BTW, I think you're doing the same thing, simplifying a complex problem for comfort.

Then let me put you straight, you are wrong.

 

[angelo]

Would that explain the turmoil in most muslim majority countries?

Because Muslim majority countries largely coincide with the remnants of the Ottoman empire. When empires collapses it can be messy for a long time. Case in point, the Russian empire collapsed about the same time as the Ottoman did. It's still a mess. Are you going to blame Russias political problems on Islam as well? Was the Dark Ages following the fall of Rome also because of Islam?

Indonesia is suffering from similar political struggles all post colonial countries struggle with. Ie trying to modernise without it looking like them losing their national identity, ie extending the colonisation by other means.

It's important to realise and accept that liberal democracies and industrialisation are both fairly new things. Large parts of Africa have transformed from iron age economies to modern one's in under half a century. Any social change creates political instability. Europe or USA have never had to deal with social change of this speed and magnitude. Throw into the mix a century of colonisation.

I'm often amazed at how well the developing world are coping. Relatively speaking. When Europe made the same transition we had periods of extreme degrees of instability and violence, that they've thankfully mostly been spared from.

Basically, give them a break and applaud them for when they do succeed. Do not apply double standards.

What a load of bullshit! I've never read such a load of codswallop in all my life!

 

[bilby]

Because Muslim majority countries largely coincide with the remnants of the Ottoman empire. When empires collapses it can be messy for a long time. Case in point, the Russian empire collapsed about the same time as the Ottoman did. It's still a mess. Are you going to blame Russias political problems on Islam as well? Was the Dark Ages following the fall of Rome also because of Islam?

Indonesia is suffering from similar political struggles all post colonial countries struggle with. Ie trying to modernise without it looking like them losing their national identity, ie extending the colonisation by other means.

It's important to realise and accept that liberal democracies and industrialisation are both fairly new things. Large parts of Africa have transformed from iron age economies to modern one's in under half a century. Any social change creates political instability. Europe or USA have never had to deal with social change of this speed and magnitude. Throw into the mix a century of colonisation.

I'm often amazed at how well the developing world are coping. Relatively speaking. When Europe made the same transition we had periods of extreme degrees of instability and violence, that they've thankfully mostly been spared from.

Basically, give them a break and applaud them for when they do succeed. Do not apply double standards.

What a load of bullshit! I've never read such a load of codswallop in all my life!

OK, then DO apply double standards, if you insist. It's a free world.

Just don't expect anyone to not think badly of you for the fact that you apply double standards.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Harmless, not harmless ? Pick one ffs.

I explained myself in the very post you're responding to. I repeated myself twice just to be super clear. I'll try to explain in an even simpler way:

Attacking symptoms instead of root causes = bad

Extreme simplification of the world to make it less confusing but robbing you of the ability to make educated judgements = bad

 

[angelo]

Harmless, not harmless ? Pick one ffs.

I explained myself in the very post you're responding to. I repeated myself twice just to be super clear. I'll try to explain in an even simpler way:

Attacking symptoms instead of root causes = bad

Extreme simplification of the world to make it less confusing but robbing you of the ability to make educated judgements = bad

Root causes=islam!

 

[bilby]

I explained myself in the very post you're responding to. I repeated myself twice just to be super clear. I'll try to explain in an even simpler way:

Attacking symptoms instead of root causes = bad

Extreme simplification of the world to make it less confusing but robbing you of the ability to make educated judgements = bad

Root causes=islam!

Root causes!=islam

 

[whichphilosophy]

I explained myself in the very post you're responding to. I repeated myself twice just to be super clear. I'll try to explain in an even simpler way:

Attacking symptoms instead of root causes = bad

Extreme simplification of the world to make it less confusing but robbing you of the ability to make educated judgements = bad

Root causes=islam!

The root cause is always people and sometimes political opportunists. Religion can be used as a key tool for herding the sheeple.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Root causes=islam!

The root cause is always people and sometimes political opportunists. Religion can be used as a key tool for herding the sheeple.

Just "people" tells you nothing. Sure, it's just people and of course political opportunists take opportunity of opportunities. They do that everywhere if given half a chance. That's not really saying much, or anything at all.

A better start would be to explain why those opportunities in particular exist or have developed in those societies. That's harder.

 

[TSwizzle]

Harmless, not harmless ? Pick one ffs.

I explained myself in the very post you're responding to. I repeated myself twice just to be super clear. I'll try to explain in an even simpler way:

Attacking symptoms instead of root causes = bad Exhibit A

Extreme simplification of the world to make it less confusing but robbing you of the ability to make educated judgements = bad Exhibit B

So which is it; simplification=good, exhibit A or simplification=bad, exhibit B.

You're all over the map fella. Put the pipe down and get back to me when you think you are coherent.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I explained myself in the very post you're responding to. I repeated myself twice just to be super clear. I'll try to explain in an even simpler way:

Attacking symptoms instead of root causes = bad Exhibit A

Extreme simplification of the world to make it less confusing but robbing you of the ability to make educated judgements = bad Exhibit B

So which is it; simplification=good, exhibit A or simplification=bad, exhibit B.

You're all over the map fella. Put the pipe down and get back to me when you think you are coherent.

Wow. You won first prize in the stupid contest

 

[bilby]

So which is it; simplification=good, exhibit A or simplification=bad, exhibit B.

You're all over the map fella. Put the pipe down and get back to me when you think you are coherent.

Wow. You won first prize in the stupid contest

Angelo will be devastated. I think he thought he had it sewn up.

 

[whichphilosophy]

The root cause is always people and sometimes political opportunists. Religion can be used as a key tool for herding the sheeple.

Just "people" tells you nothing. Sure, it's just people and of course political opportunists take opportunity of opportunities. They do that everywhere if given half a chance. That's not really saying much, or anything at all.

A better start would be to explain why those opportunities in particular exist or have developed in those societies. That's harder.

Maybe I should say individuals or individual opportunists. There are of course factors that would create a platform for them. I could expand by mentioning existing oppression, poverty and other factors.

 

[angelo]

Root causes=islam!

The root cause is always people and sometimes political opportunists. Religion can be used as a key tool for herding the sheeple.

Except that islam uses people to further the religious death cult!

- - - Updated - - -

Wow. You won first prize in the stupid contest

Angelo will be devastated. I think he thought he had it sewn up.

No, no, no! The stupid has been won and dusted by leftards many years ago!

 

[whichphilosophy]

The root cause is always people and sometimes political opportunists. Religion can be used as a key tool for herding the sheeple.

Except that islam uses people to further the religious death cult!

- - - Updated - - -

Wow. You won first prize in the stupid contest

Angelo will be devastated. I think he thought he had it sewn up.

No, no, no! The stupid has been won and dusted by leftards many years ago!

I suppose the fanatics like ISIS can say they bring people closer to God. Are you okay with second prize?

 

[bigfield]

Wow. You won first prize in the stupid contest

Angelo will be devastated. I think he thought he had it sewn up.

No, no, no! The stupid has been won and dusted by leftards many years ago!

A very one-sided battle of wits.

 

[whichphilosophy]

The UK is soon to vote on BREXIT. I think it is most likely that the electorate will vote to stay, The exit would take a few years to conclude. Hopefully the UK could enact tougher laws on immigration while still allowing asylum seekers to be processed.

 

[angelo]

The UK is soon to vote on BREXIT. I think it is most likely that the electorate will vote to stay, The exit would take a few years to conclude. Hopefully the UK could enact tougher laws on immigration while still allowing asylum seekers to be processed.

Latest polling is suggesting the stays will win narrowly .