Europe submits voluntarily

[whichphilosophy]

Roaming charges could be abolished worldwide as we now have the technology to do so. Some phone providers have been offering that already.

Will never happen. This is classic tragedy of the commons. Either all companies have to do it at once or nobody will do it. It needs a kind of multi-state parliament to force all participants to agree. Without the EU it would never have happened.

In the UK a person can wear a Nazi uniform if he is going to a fancy dress party. However in a democracy we sometimes have to tolerate the intolerable.

I also think that swastikas should be legal. That wasn't the issue. I was comparing the degree as to how we are limited in free speech.

Abolished is perhaps the wrong word. I think eventually we could phone from anywhere in the world by automatically paying the local rate or keeping the local rates.
However since we would be using other providers when in a different country the likelihood is we would pay their rates.
Agreed, censorship or banning things erodes a democracy. First it starts with the outer fringes then perhaps works its way along and so forth.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Agreed, censorship or banning things erodes a democracy. First it starts with the outer fringes then perhaps works its way along and so forth.

I've worked in telecom many years. We know what is going to happen because it's happening already. People will stop using the mobile nets (GSM and so on) and will transfer completely onto voice over chat services. This development is accelerating fast and is IMHO unstoppable.

Traditional phone companies are all old and huge. They are behaving just like the record companies did in the last century. Instead of embracing new technologies and new realities, they are fighting it. They are trying to regulate us into keeping the old technologies. They are leaning on their various governments to allow them to continue in the old ways. In each individual country these companies are big enough to push government around. But in the EU they are not.

Basically, they're all aware they're sailing on a sinking ship, and are trying to squeeze as much blood out of the GSM stone as they can. It's a spontaneous cartel. They haven't called each other and agreed on this cartel. But they certainly are behaving as they are. So this day-light robbery will continue until either governments regulate them to stop or until the data transfer cost has become low enough to out-compete GSM. The EU chose to do something about it because they could. Individual countries alone can't.

 

[angelo]

Are there other compelling reasons for the UK to remain in the EU?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Are there other compelling reasons for the UK to remain in the EU?

There's a couple of ways to look at it. First off, economically it's neither here nor there. Not really. Due to the free movement of labour we're on the plus side. But not violently so. It has to be offset by the membership fee. We're still on the plus side. But not much. That in itself isn't much of an argument to stay.

The main argument IMHO is that the parliament partly gives us a platform to talk to one another, as well as forcing us to talk to one another. That was why the EU, or the "Coal and Steel pact" was initially created. It makes it very hard for one country to huff and puff in solitude and then war. Whatever grievances countries have the EU can force the entire continent to talk about it, and deal with it. Greece is an excellent example. That would have been way harder to sort out without the EU. So unity in Europe and peace, a pretty fucking huge perk.

And another big perk is working in other European countries. I live and work in Denmark now. No hassles and zero bureaucracy. It all just sorted itself out magically. All thanks to the EU. Awesome. But this perk only applies to people who use this perk, which is far from all Europeans. So not in itself a huge reason to stay.

As for the cross-European regulations. Like the roaming thing. Sure, it's great. But it's not any kind of deal breaker. Nor are there many like this. Most of the EU regulations is stuff that we'd quite successfully managed to regulate anyway. Organisations like ISO, do a stellar job of international regulations. The EU layer doesn't really add... nor subract much. It's a bit meh.

There's also the coolness factor of being the first empire/federation in history that has formed through peaceful means. I think that is cool and something to be proud about. I also think the EU flag is pretty.



So basically, no economic cost, one huge perk and coolness factor.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Are there other compelling reasons for the UK to remain in the EU?

We don't need to bother about making laws anymore; this will be done by the EU government.

The theory is excellent. There are good points regarding border access, but now since we have security concerns, I don't mind waiting a few minutes to have my passport and luggage checked a bit more thoroughly. It means a free movement of work. So if I was living in Romania I would pack my bags and go to a European country offering job opportunities. However the workers in the more well off countries would face unfair competition.

In fact China which has been making economic progress since the 1980s has border controls between the different provinces and operates a visa system. This will prevent 200 million small holding farmers from converging on Beijing and Shanghai to find work. Some do go and work of course but not in such uncontrolled numbers.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Are there other compelling reasons for the UK to remain in the EU?

There's a couple of ways to look at it. First off, economically it's neither here nor there. Not really. Due to the free movement of labour we're on the plus side. But not violently so. It has to be offset by the membership fee. We're still on the plus side. But not much. That in itself isn't much of an argument to stay.

The main argument IMHO is that the parliament partly gives us a platform to talk to one another, as well as forcing us to talk to one another. That was why the EU, or the "Coal and Steel pact" was initially created. It makes it very hard for one country to huff and puff in solitude and then war. Whatever grievances countries have the EU can force the entire continent to talk about it, and deal with it. Greece is an excellent example. That would have been way harder to sort out without the EU. So unity in Europe and peace, a pretty fucking huge perk.

And another big perk is working in other European countries. I live and work in Denmark now. No hassles and zero bureaucracy. It all just sorted itself out magically. All thanks to the EU. Awesome. But this perk only applies to people who use this perk, which is far from all Europeans. So not in itself a huge reason to stay.

As for the cross-European regulations. Like the roaming thing. Sure, it's great. But it's not any kind of deal breaker. Nor are there many like this. Most of the EU regulations is stuff that we'd quite successfully managed to regulate anyway. Organisations like ISO, do a stellar job of international regulations. The EU layer doesn't really add... nor subract much. It's a bit meh.

There's also the coolness factor of being the first empire/federation in history that has formed through peaceful means. I think that is cool and something to be proud about. I also think the EU flag is pretty.



So basically, no economic cost, one huge perk and coolness factor.

For the British and most Europeans it's very easy to work in the Gulf countries, China, Hong Kong and China from personal experience. All that is needed is a work visa. Once the work is over I also have to leave. However many of these countries grant six month visitors visas with no hassle.

Europe is of course slightly easier. I was based in Italy for 3 years but employed out of Abu Dhabi.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Are there other compelling reasons for the UK to remain in the EU?

We don't need to bother about making laws anymore; this will be done by the EU government.

The theory is excellent. There are good points regarding border access, but now since we have security concerns, I don't mind waiting a few minutes to have my passport and luggage checked a bit more thoroughly. It means a free movement of work. So if I was living in Romania I would pack my bags and go to a European country offering job opportunities. However the workers in the more well off countries would face unfair competition.

In fact China which has been making economic progress since the 1980s has border controls between the different provinces and operates a visa system. This will prevent 200 million small holding farmers from converging on Beijing and Shanghai to find work. Some do go and work of course but not in such uncontrolled numbers.

Unless you work on one side of a border and live on the other. Then it's a complete fucking nightmare. And it's every fucking day. It can tell you from experience it grinds your soul down. And I've only done it for about a couple of weeks now. It's an added hour of standing in a queue every single day. It adds up.

 

[whichphilosophy]

We don't need to bother about making laws anymore; this will be done by the EU government.

The theory is excellent. There are good points regarding border access, but now since we have security concerns, I don't mind waiting a few minutes to have my passport and luggage checked a bit more thoroughly. It means a free movement of work. So if I was living in Romania I would pack my bags and go to a European country offering job opportunities. However the workers in the more well off countries would face unfair competition.

In fact China which has been making economic progress since the 1980s has border controls between the different provinces and operates a visa system. This will prevent 200 million small holding farmers from converging on Beijing and Shanghai to find work. Some do go and work of course but not in such uncontrolled numbers.

Unless you work on one side of a border and live on the other. Then it's a complete fucking nightmare. And it's every fucking day. It can tell you from experience it grinds your soul down. And I've only done it for about a couple of weeks now. It's an added hour of standing in a queue every single day. It adds up.

Is it possible to move to the country where you are working, or does that create taxation complications?
It means extra expense of course unless the employer provides an allowance.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Unless you work on one side of a border and live on the other. Then it's a complete fucking nightmare. And it's every fucking day. It can tell you from experience it grinds your soul down. And I've only done it for about a couple of weeks now. It's an added hour of standing in a queue every single day. It adds up.

Is it possible to move to the country where you are working, or does that create taxation complications?
It means extra expense of course unless the employer provides an allowance.

My girlfriend has a child with her ex-boyfriend. They share custody, every other week. She's pretty locked to that general region, due to daycare and such. So moving is not an option. It's my dream job, so I want to keep it. So this is a pretty fucked situation in every direction. The main reason for moving was that I hate distance relationship. I want to live with the woman I love.

Due to the border being so open for 15 years it's extremely common to work on one side and live on the other. In both directions. People's families have become interconnected. People behave quite literally as if there is no border. This extreme integration has been quick to. So these border controls create pretty big problems for people. The biggest problem is that the bridge crossing isn't built with passport controls in mind. There's just no physical room for it. So it leads to plenty of delays as well as constantly jam packed trains. This leads to stress. I'm exhausted when I get home from work. I'd been exhausted anyway. But the trains certainly don't help.

Wasn't long ago since there were big divides between Sweden and Denmark, traditional enemies for a thousand years. That's all gone now. Now, in practice it's just one big country. Which is how it should be IMHO.

BTW, a couple of days ago a report came on the effectiveness of the passport checks. The result was a 0.2% effectiveness. Due to the fact that people can travel by air within Europe and they're not checked at the Swedish airports. Same deal if you come by sea. The only place we have passport checks is on the bridge between Denmark and Sweden. It's incredibly easy to avoid the checks. And anecdotaly, I've gotten through the passport checks without being checked 50% of the time. They suck. And if you make some effort in not being checked, I'm sure it's dead easy. Which their reports show.

The drop in refugees since the passport checks came up has to be explained by other means. Here's Sweden's official statistics:

http://www.migrationsverket.se/Om-Migrationsverket/Statistik.html

As you can see there was a sharp upturn just before the border checks and then a sharp dive after. This can easily be explained as a temporary statistical anomaly, ie "regression to the mean", in statistics-talk.

So they're worthless. They only exist to create the illusion that the politicians are serious about this "problem". It's political theater. The only way to stop them is to stop the war in Syria.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Is it possible to move to the country where you are working, or does that create taxation complications?
It means extra expense of course unless the employer provides an allowance.

My girlfriend has a child with her ex-boyfriend. They share custody, every other week. She's pretty locked to that general region, due to daycare and such. So moving is not an option. It's my dream job, so I want to keep it. So this is a pretty fucked situation in every direction. The main reason for moving was that I hate distance relationship. I want to live with the woman I love.

Due to the border being so open for 15 years it's extremely common to work on one side and live on the other. In both directions. People's families have become interconnected. People behave quite literally as if there is no border. This extreme integration has been quick to. So these border controls create pretty big problems for people. The biggest problem is that the bridge crossing isn't built with passport controls in mind. There's just no physical room for it. So it leads to plenty of delays as well as constantly jam packed trains. This leads to stress. I'm exhausted when I get home from work. I'd been exhausted anyway. But the trains certainly don't help.

Wasn't long ago since there were big divides between Sweden and Denmark, traditional enemies for a thousand years. That's all gone now. Now, in practice it's just one big country. Which is how it should be IMHO.

BTW, a couple of days ago a report came on the effectiveness of the passport checks. The result was a 0.2% effectiveness. Due to the fact that people can travel by air within Europe and they're not checked at the Swedish airports. Same deal if you come by sea. The only place we have passport checks is on the bridge between Denmark and Sweden. It's incredibly easy to avoid the checks. And anecdotaly, I've gotten through the passport checks without being checked 50% of the time. They suck. And if you make some effort in not being checked, I'm sure it's dead easy. Which their reports show.

The drop in refugees since the passport checks came up has to be explained by other means. Here's Sweden's official statistics:

http://www.migrationsverket.se/Om-Migrationsverket/Statistik.html

As you can see there was a sharp upturn just before the border checks and then a sharp dive after. This can easily be explained as a temporary statistical anomaly, ie "regression to the mean", in statistics-talk.

So they're worthless. They only exist to create the illusion that the politicians are serious about this "problem". It's political theater. The only way to stop them is to stop the war in Syria.

Relationships as you describe can make things difficult. The last point, stopping the War in Syria is the best and most workable solution.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Relationships as you describe can make things difficult. The last point, stopping the War in Syria is the best and most workable solution.

As I see it, it is the only solution. And when that river dries up the infrastructure built to help them get into Europe will be dismantled making it harder for economic migrants to get here. They're travelling along the same routes. Fix this one problem and we greatly alleviate all problems.

 

[angelo]

The problem will just shift to another moslem majority nation. As long as there is islam in the world, there will be chaos and wars.

Here a very good argument is put by Bill Maher.

http://www.israelvideonetwork.com/b...lie-rose-for-comparing-islam-to-christianity/

 

[DrZoidberg]

American Muslims support gay rights more often than Evangelical Christians. How's your theory of the evils of Islam working out now, Angelo?

http://reason.com/blog/2016/06/13/in-america-muslims-are-more-likely-to-su

 

[TSwizzle]

So much crap in this puff piece.

 

[whichphilosophy]

American Muslims support gay rights more often than Evangelical Christians. How's your theory of the evils of Islam working out now, Angelo?

http://reason.com/blog/2016/06/13/in-america-muslims-are-more-likely-to-su

It does emphasise American Muslims, so the Western society has an influence on Muslims here. The amount of Jews who support same sex marriage is very high at 77%
This is because the Jews think that once they are married it's the same sex every time.

- - - Updated - - -

American Muslims support gay rights more often than Evangelical Christians. How's your theory of the evils of Islam working out now, Angelo?

http://reason.com/blog/2016/06/13/in-america-muslims-are-more-likely-to-su

It does emphasise American Muslims, so the Western society has an influence on Muslims here. The amount of Jews who support same sex marriage is very high at 77%
This is because the Jews think that once they are married it's the same sex every time.

 

[repoman]

It does emphasise American Muslims, so the Western society has an influence on Muslims here. The amount of Jews who support same sex marriage is very high at 77%
This is because the Jews think that once they are married it's the same sex every time.

- - - Updated - - -

American Muslims support gay rights more often than Evangelical Christians. How's your theory of the evils of Islam working out now, Angelo?

http://reason.com/blog/2016/06/13/in-america-muslims-are-more-likely-to-su

It does emphasise American Muslims, so the Western society has an influence on Muslims here. The amount of Jews who support same sex marriage is very high at 77%
This is because the Jews think that once they are married it's the same sex every time.

Bring in immigrants in at a trickle and they will culturally assimilate to a higher degree.

 

[angelo]

American Muslims support gay rights more often than Evangelical Christians. How's your theory of the evils of Islam working out now, Angelo?

http://reason.com/blog/2016/06/13/in-america-muslims-are-more-likely-to-su

They can't be true moslems! In fact I would say they are committing apostasy, and deserving of the death penalty under sharia law!

 

[DrZoidberg]

American Muslims support gay rights more often than Evangelical Christians. How's your theory of the evils of Islam working out now, Angelo?

http://reason.com/blog/2016/06/13/in-america-muslims-are-more-likely-to-su

They can't be true moslems! In fact I would say they are committing apostasy, and deserving of the death penalty under sharia law!

I think it's a bit like Christians who eat shellfish and Wear mixed fabric clothing. All religious people cherry pick. Yes, even fundamentalists.

And who are you to say who is a true Muslim? How about letting them decide that for themselves.

 

[repoman]

I think the Christians have most old testament laws thrown out because Jebus at least according to Paul. Jews on the other hand...

But I understand your point.

 

[Jayjay]

American muslims are by and large more moderate than their European and Middle-Eastern counterparts. If the same poll was conducted in Sweden you'd get very different results.

Besides, over 50% of a religious group being against gay marriage, when the equivalent number for non-religious people is 16%, isn't exactly a good thing.