Europe submits voluntarily

[dystopian]

No, it doesn't. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Ah, the second grader view of the world.

I think you may be confused. The 2nd'grader view of the world is the one that excuses the bad behavior of one group because the other group also did bad things.

 

[dystopian]

Where the hell did I say that this came from Fox News? I can't remember the last I watched Fox. I watch the BBC to learn what is happening in the Europe.

It was Fox news that made claims about muslim only 'no-go' areas in French cities and the UK (going so far as to claim Birmingham was entirely muslim and unsafe for non-muslims), not the BBC. While the BBC have reported on various incidents and frictions; they have not, to my knowledge, made the absurd claim about there being muslim-only sections of cities. These type of claims are pretty easily refuted by just taking a walk in these areas, in any case. You have occasional incidents in these types of areas, but that is more down to socio-economics rather than religion, and the frequency of these incidents is hardly sufficient to justify these kind of claims. Occasionally you get some young idiots who like to scare people by making it about religion, but that's no different than poor idiot white kids in the suburbs pretending to be neo-nazis and shouting sieg heil at people. Most residents view these kids with the same attitude in both of these types of neighbourhoods; they certainly don't support or condone that behavior.

I'll make it as clear as I can; the idea that there are muslim-only 'no-go' areas in European cities is nothing more than a fiction driven by racist hysteria.

 

[skepticalbip]

Where the hell did I say that this came from Fox News? I can't remember the last I watched Fox. I watch the BBC to learn what is happening in the Europe.

It was Fox news that made claims about muslim only 'no-go' areas in French cities and the UK (going so far as to claim Birmingham was entirely muslim and unsafe for non-muslims), not the BBC. While the BBC have reported on various incidents and frictions; they have not, to my knowledge, made the absurd claim about there being muslim-only sections of cities. These type of claims are pretty easily refuted by just taking a walk in these areas, in any case. You have occasional incidents in these types of areas, but that is more down to socio-economics rather than religion, and the frequency of these incidents is hardly sufficient to justify these kind of claims. Occasionally you get some young idiots who like to scare people by making it about religion, but that's no different than poor idiot white kids in the suburbs pretending to be neo-nazis and shouting sieg heil at people. Most residents view these kids with the same attitude in both of these types of neighbourhoods; they certainly don't support or condone that behavior.

I'll make it as clear as I can; the idea that there are muslim-only 'no-go' areas in European cities is nothing more than a fiction driven by racist hysteria.

Again you are offering a strawman. You really should stop assuming (and arguing) that I am claiming such things. I didn't say "no-go" areas. "Not welcome" does not equal "no-go".

 

[untermensche]

Ah, the second grader view of the world.

I think you may be confused. The 2nd'grader view of the world is the one that excuses the bad behavior of one group because the other group also did bad things.

No, the second grader view is that there are no expected consequences to massive violence and brutality.

 

[dystopian]

I think you may be confused. The 2nd'grader view of the world is the one that excuses the bad behavior of one group because the other group also did bad things.

No, the second grader view is that there are no expected consequences to massive violence and brutality.

Again, you appear to be confused. It is the child that needs to be told by an adult that it doesn't matter what the other kid did, it's not okay to hit them. An emotionally and intellectually mature perspective enables us to understand that the only way to break the cycle of violence is to *stop* retaliating, no matter how 'justified' retaliation may seem. It is easy for an adult to explain this to a child, but it is not always easy for an adult to follow themselves. Nonetheless, it is the sort of thing that children who do bad things because other people did bad things need to be told; regardless of whether or not the children in question are 12 or 40.

 

[dystopian]

Again you are offering a strawman. You really should stop assuming (and arguing) that I am claiming such things. I didn't say "no-go" areas. "Not welcome" does not equal "no-go".

You're trying to backtrack using flimsy semantic arguments. Saying that there are 'muslim areas' where old natives are 'not welcome' is really no different; in common parlance it means the same damn thing and is interpreted the same damn way by the sort of people who'd agree with the expressed statement. A statement which is false *regardless* of whether you follow a colloqial or a literalist interpretation of the words you strung together, btw. Natives are by no means 'unwelcome' in these areas. Anyone capable of rational thought should understand that the actions of a few bad apples in a neighborhood should not set the overall tone and do not necessarily represent the majority view. Whenever one finds these kinds of claims about muslim neighborhoods, one also finds (with a bit of digging perhaps), that the residents themselves almost universally condemn the actions of these groups.

But most people can't see past the innate human negativity bias.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Decades << Centuries.

Yes, of course, the Barbary Pirates, I forgot.

How dare they interfere with US slave traders.

They've been attacking Europe repeatedly.

 

[skepticalbip]

Again you are offering a strawman. You really should stop assuming (and arguing) that I am claiming such things. I didn't say "no-go" areas. "Not welcome" does not equal "no-go".

You're trying to backtrack using flimsy semantic arguments. Saying that there are 'muslim areas' where old natives are 'not welcome' is really no different; in common parlance it means the same damn thing and is interpreted the same damn way by the sort of people who'd agree with the expressed statement. A statement which is false *regardless* of whether you follow a colloqial or a literalist interpretation of the words you strung together, btw. Natives are by no means 'unwelcome' in these areas. Anyone capable of rational thought should understand that the actions of a few bad apples in a neighborhood should not set the overall tone and do not necessarily represent the majority view. Whenever one finds these kinds of claims about muslim neighborhoods, one also finds (with a bit of digging perhaps), that the residents themselves almost universally condemn the actions of these groups.

But most people can't see past the innate human negativity bias.

There is no backtrack. You are just making erroneous assumptions and refuse to accept that the positions you want to claim I have are mistaken.

It has been at least fifteen years since I was last in Amsterdam. However, at that time the Dutch culture accepted girls wearing halter tops and shorts during the summer. Has the Dutch culture changed to accommodate Muslim sensitivities or are you claiming that a neighborhood like Bos en Lommer would welcome native Dutch girls walking around there in the Dutch culturally acceptable dress?

If you think that a change in Dutch culture to accommodate new emigrates (such as dress more modestly) is a good thing then that is your opinion but I assume that there are likely other Dutch who disagree with you. We in the US haven't yet had to confront the problem of having to change to accommodate our emigrates. We haven't even had to mandate an official language to force emigrates to learn English. We have no official language. We are fortunate that so far our emigrates accept and are eager to assimilate into our culture.

 

[untermensche]

No, the second grader view is that there are no expected consequences to massive violence and brutality.

Again, you appear to be confused. It is the child that needs to be told by an adult that it doesn't matter what the other kid did, it's not okay to hit them. An emotionally and intellectually mature perspective enables us to understand that the only way to break the cycle of violence is to *stop* retaliating, no matter how 'justified' retaliation may seem. It is easy for an adult to explain this to a child, but it is not always easy for an adult to follow themselves. Nonetheless, it is the sort of thing that children who do bad things because other people did bad things need to be told; regardless of whether or not the children in question are 12 or 40.

Again, this is fine for children.

But for adults looking at the real world it is meaningless.

We look at the massive killing the US did in Cambodia and then the rise of murderous elements.

We now see the same thing after more restrained but still massive violence in Iraq and many other parts of the ME by the US.

This is the way humans many times react to massive terrorism and killing. In their fear people cling to the most radical elements that promise revenge. They cling to their religion as well.

Only children will be surprised by this.

 

[dystopian]

There is no backtrack. You are just making erroneous assumptions and refuse to accept that the positions you want to claim I have are mistaken.

Ah. Irony. I know it well. You might want to take care to note that I have not claimed anything about positions you might have; merely that the claim you have made in regard to muslim areas is false; and that it is false regardless of whether we take my interpretation of your words or your attempt to nuance them.

It has been at least fifteen years since I was last in Amsterdam. However, at that time the Dutch culture accepted girls wearing halter tops and shorts during the summer. Has the Dutch culture changed to accommodate Muslim sensitivities or are you claiming that a neighborhood like Bos en Lommer would welcome native Dutch girls walking around there in the Dutch culturally acceptable dress?

Bos & Lommer is a perfectly normal area of the city; girls can dress however they want there and indeed do. There is a particular neighborhood of Bos & Lommer (Kolenkitbuurt) that some years back got some media attention for being the 'worst' 'problem' area in the country (the rest of Bos & Lommer is more like any other urban area), but as I've been explaining all along, this type of media exposure is wholly overblown and paints the area with strokes that are far too broad. You will find girls (of all ethnicities) in the Kolenkitbuurt dressing the same as girls anywhere in the Netherlands dress. They do not dress modestly in order to avoid offending anyone; they have no need to do so. If they dress modestly at all, it's because Dutch weather sucks, not because they're in a particular neighbourhood.

It's hard to find any pictures of summer in the Kolenkitbuurt on google image search, but I did find this picture of one of those urban beaches (put down a shittonne of sand somewhere in the middle of a neighborhood for people to hang out) in the Kolenkitbuurt: http://www.volks-krant.nl/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/07-kolenkitbuurt1.jpg - doesn't seem all that modest to me. Maybe the sharia police were off-screen, taking names?

If you think that a change in Dutch culture to accommodate new emigrates (such as dress more modestly) is a good thing then that is your opinion but I assume that there are likely other Dutch who disagree with you.

And those Dutch people are idiots who are disagreeing with something that doesn't even fucking happen.

 

[dystopian]

But for adults looking at the real world it is meaningless.

We look at the massive killing the US did in Cambodia and then the rise of murderous elements.

We now see the same thing after more restrained but still massive violence in Iraq and many other parts of the ME by the US.

This is the way humans many times react to massive terrorism and killing. In their fear people cling to the most radical elements that promise revenge. They cling to their religion as well.

Only children will be surprised by this.

No, for adults it is all the more important. It's not about being surprised or not; it's about taking a stand and about understanding the means to *end* the cycle. At some point, one side will have to take the first step and stop the violent cycle, even if they have a 'justifiable' reason to retaliate. With our level of education and development, the west is in a much better position to both understand this and take that first step; and we should. The only other way to get lasting peace is to commit perfect genocide; which I for one am not comfortable with.

Who did what first is ultimately irrelevant.

 

[untermensche]

But for adults looking at the real world it is meaningless.

We look at the massive killing the US did in Cambodia and then the rise of murderous elements.

We now see the same thing after more restrained but still massive violence in Iraq and many other parts of the ME by the US.

This is the way humans many times react to massive terrorism and killing. In their fear people cling to the most radical elements that promise revenge. They cling to their religion as well.

Only children will be surprised by this.

No, for adults it is all the more important. It's not about being surprised or not; it's about taking a stand and about understanding the means to *end* the cycle. At some point, one side will have to take the first step and stop the violent cycle, even if they have a 'justifiable' reason to retaliate. With our level of education and development, the west is in a much better position to both understand this and take that first step; and we should. The only other way to get lasting peace is to commit perfect genocide; which I for one am not comfortable with.

Who did what first is ultimately irrelevant.

It is not who did what first.

It is what events have obviously led us to the present situation.

No US invasion and rape of Arab lands and people, then ISIS maybe arises but it is a tiny near powerless little faction.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Let the Caliphate Cough Up Blood

Again, you appear to be confused. It is the child that needs to be told by an adult that it doesn't matter what the other kid did, it's not okay to hit them. An emotionally and intellectually mature perspective enables us to understand that the only way to break the cycle of violence is to *stop* retaliating, no matter how 'justified' retaliation may seem. It is easy for an adult to explain this to a child, but it is not always easy for an adult to follow themselves. Nonetheless, it is the sort of thing that children who do bad things because other people did bad things need to be told; regardless of whether or not the children in question are 12 or 40.

Again, this is fine for children.

But for adults looking at the real world it is meaningless.

We look at the massive killing the US did in Cambodia and then the rise of murderous elements.

We now see the same thing after more restrained but still massive violence in Iraq and many other parts of the ME by the US.

This is the way humans many times react to massive terrorism and killing. In their fear people cling to the most radical elements that promise revenge. They cling to their religion as well.

Only children will be surprised by this.

Rainbow Kumbaya singalong campfires are childish. From thousands of years of experience, evolved nations recognized that the rabid Arab rabble were savages and could only be tamed by extreme measures. So the jihad is not revenge by the natives, it is just the opposite. They saw decadent leniency as a sign of weakness and went in for the kill, like any other predatory beasts.

 

[untermensche]

Again, this is fine for children.

But for adults looking at the real world it is meaningless.

We look at the massive killing the US did in Cambodia and then the rise of murderous elements.

We now see the same thing after more restrained but still massive violence in Iraq and many other parts of the ME by the US.

This is the way humans many times react to massive terrorism and killing. In their fear people cling to the most radical elements that promise revenge. They cling to their religion as well.

Only children will be surprised by this.

Rainbow Kumbaya singalong campfires are childish. From thousands of years of experience, evolved nations recognized that the rabid Arab rabble were savages and could only be tamed by extreme measures. So the jihad is not revenge by the natives, it is just the opposite. They saw decadent leniency as a sign of weakness and went in for the kill, like any other predatory beasts.

What is this history you speak of?

European and US slavery?

The sweatshops of the Industrial Revolution?

European and US Colonialism?

The World Wars of the 20th Century?

Vietnam and Cambodia?

The unprovoked invasion of Iraq and over ten years of US and British widespread and non-stop violence and killing and torture of Muslims?

Pits from hell all over the world like Guantanamo when Muslim prisons are kept and tortured with no trial, no rights?

I know with this good example from the West it is hard to understand Muslim hostility towards it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Again, this is fine for children.

But for adults looking at the real world it is meaningless.

We look at the massive killing the US did in Cambodia and then the rise of murderous elements.

We now see the same thing after more restrained but still massive violence in Iraq and many other parts of the ME by the US.

This is the way humans many times react to massive terrorism and killing. In their fear people cling to the most radical elements that promise revenge. They cling to their religion as well.

Only children will be surprised by this.

Once again you blame the US for things we did not do.

The total death toll from our invasion of Cambodia was only about 11,000 and most of those were Vietnamese forces, not Cambodians. The massive killings in Cambodia were the result of a leftist kook, not us.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No US invasion and rape of Arab lands and people, then ISIS maybe arises but it is a tiny near powerless little faction.

ISIS is about radical Islam, not about anything we did. Our actions caused it only to the extent that we took out the dictator preventing it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Rainbow Kumbaya singalong campfires are childish. From thousands of years of experience, evolved nations recognized that the rabid Arab rabble were savages and could only be tamed by extreme measures. So the jihad is not revenge by the natives, it is just the opposite. They saw decadent leniency as a sign of weakness and went in for the kill, like any other predatory beasts.

I disagree. Most are not savages.

Unfortunately, enough are to be quite a problem in the world.

 

[angelo]

No, it doesn't. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Before the end of the century, Muslims will outnumber the western population of most European nations where they are a minority now. Once that happens, and no doubt they'll outnumber them in government by then as well. No doubt they will pass legislation to install sharia law, as that is the law of Allah. Many of the western descendants may seek asylum to places where western culture is still a majority.

This ridiculous claim has been thoroughly refuted. It is mathematically *impossible* for muslims to outnumber the non-islamic populations of western European countries within the century. Please stop spreading this utter nonsense.

You obviously have no clue how democracy works. It does not matter the intent of those Muslims moving into Europe. When they, their children, and grandchildren reach voting age, they will be much more likely to vote for a Muslim running for office than the other candidates.

And you obviously have no clue how demographic shifts work; or how European democracy works. There is very little reason to think that their grandchildren are more likely to vote for a muslim than the other guy. Figures and studies for the Netherlands for example show that young muslims are consistently less religious in their behavior and views than their parents; and an increasing number of them simply don't believe in god at all. The number of Dutch muslims who go to mosque at least once a month has dropped by no less than 12% in the past decade. Furthermore, there doesn't seem to be any evidence that Dutch muslims vote for people based on their religious affiliation. While they do tend to vote on people of the same ethnicity more so (but hardly exclusively), religion doesn't seem to play a big role in this.

Few Dutch Muslim voters; like few regular European voters; are going to vote for a person/party solely because it is in line with their religious identity. There is little value to be had in voting for a muslim party when that party could not possibly gain enough seats to be particularly relevant; something that most muslim voters are well aware of. Instead they'll keep on voting for PVDA (Labor) or SP (Socialist). There have been attempts to form muslim parties in the past, and they've always failed because muslim voters won't vote on them; at most, people will vote on them as a kind of 'protest' vote because they're disappointed with mainstream politics, but invariably they return to voting on the big parties again as a way of actually having political influence.

Give some data on how well Muslims are assimulating into European culture and you may have a point. I don't see it. In fact I see sections of some cities being declared "Muslem areas" where the old natives are not welcome.

Stop treating Fox News and their European equivalents as credible sources of news.

This type of claim pops up every now and then, about how a neighborhood of city x is muslim only with sharia patrols and the cops afraid to patrol and all sorts of other scary claims... and every godddamned time some basic independent journalism shows the claim to be utter bullshit. These kinds of areas simply do not exist.

The majority of muslims *are* integrating just find into European countries.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...07/22/some-good-news-about-muslims-in-europe/

On so, you have a crystal ball? Moslems birthrate is more than four times Westerns birthrate. A cheap calculator ought to give you an answer.

 

[angelo]

Where the hell did I say that this came from Fox News? I can't remember the last I watched Fox. I watch the BBC to learn what is happening in the Europe.

The BBC are worse than Fox.

Any news item you don't agree with is biased?

 

[bilby]

...A cheap calculator ought to give you an answer.

'An answer' is not the same thing as 'the right answer'.