Europe submits voluntarily

[Juma]

And you base this on what?
Strange that very little of this is actually a problem here in Sweden. Our problem is fearmongering facists/nazists.

No the problem is those who are too blind to see the truth, those self loathing, blame capitalism at any cost, leftards who have a death wish.

Leftards? Are you totally fucked up? This isnt a question about left and right, capitalism vs socialism. Its about people fleeing from a war and fascists using peoples fear!

 

[Jokodo]

Meanwhile, as all of you right-wing chickens are masturbating over the fall of Europe, one of your fellow travelers has attempted to assassinate a mayoral candidate in the city of Cologne, Germany, over her role in housing refugees arriving in the city. Goes to show which side the real threat to "European" values and liberties is coming from.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...uting-about-refugees-in-cologne-a6698061.html

Let's see how long it takes before we read justifications for this act from the very people who complain that while not all Muslims are terrorist, the "regular Muslims" don't distance themselves from the terrorists explicitly enough (or use the wrong code words when doing so).

Someone tries to kill an elected German politician. How does this relate considering there are lunatics on all sides of the immigration issue?

If a lunatic who is a naturalized German citizen of Turkish ancestry tried to kill a politician, the same people who are now saying its irrelevant would be the first to use that as evidence that integration of Middle Easterners doesn't work and can't work and Europe is therefore doomed in immigration of any significant scale continues.

If you've decided to use a particular standard, however stupid, at least show some decency and apply it consistently for fuck's sake!

 

[angelo]

No the problem is those who are too blind to see the truth, those self loathing, blame capitalism at any cost, leftards who have a death wish.

Leftards? Are you totally fucked up? This isnt a question about left and right, capitalism vs socialism. Its about people fleeing from a war and fascists using peoples fear!

Some indeed are fleeing for their lives. But the vast majority of this muzzie invasion are single men who are economic migrants. If things are as bad as claimed by these freeloaders, why risk leaving their loved ones including their women and children behind to fend for themselves?

 

[whichphilosophy]

Leftards? Are you totally fucked up? This isnt a question about left and right, capitalism vs socialism. Its about people fleeing from a war and fascists using peoples fear!

Some indeed are fleeing for their lives. But the vast majority of this muzzie invasion are single men who are economic migrants. If things are as bad as claimed by these freeloaders, why risk leaving their loved ones including their women and children behind to fend for themselves?

The good news is that it seems ISIS are now on the run. The bad news is guess where many are likely to end up.

 

[maxparrish]

Unless the unemployed and disturbed attacker is typical of Germans of European descent, you should only be alarmed over your own absurd generalization of a "threat" because of a single person's act. <snip>

It's hardly comforting for the person being to know that this might not be typical of Germans of European descent. And it only takes a small number to cause major problems.

Both of the above sentences are very close paraphrases of things people in this thread said when the topic was Muslims. So if you want to be consistent, you need to be telling them that their generalizations are absurd, too.

While I am not responsible for what those others said, I suspect there is a big difference. Statistically the rate of violent criminality among those of Muslim origin are much higher than that of European Germans. Hence, be alarmed.

 

[fromderinside]

While I am not responsible for what those others said, I suspect there is a big difference. Statistically the rate of violent criminality among those of Muslim origin are much higher than that of European Germans. Hence, be alarmed.

Need some references for that statement maxparrish.

 

[maxparrish]

The Swedish economist Tino Sanandaji (of Iranian-Kurdish descent, and therefore tougher than most Swedes, who, if they criticize the immigration policy, are immediately accused of racism) writes on his blog that Swedes could soon be in the minority in their own country:

"1,000-1,500 asylum seekers a day for 15 years equals 5.5 to 8.2 million asylum seekers. At the end of 2014, the Statistical Central Bureau, SCB, calculated that 21.5% of the Swedish population were of foreign descent: 2.1 million, out of 9.7 million. The number of people of Swedish descent -- born in Sweden with two parents born in Sweden -- has been stable at about 7.7 million and is expected to remain stable or increase slightly due to birth surplus. If those of foreign descent increase their number by about 5.6 million, they will become the majority."

Yes, because 1000-1500 asylum seekers a day for the next 15 years is totally plausible.

Apparently those who relish third world immigration to Europe can't actually show it to be of benefit to the historic European population, but they sniff out and express cherry-picked skepticism from an overwhelmingly negative picture. The number of asylum claiming seekers (legit and fake) is directly proportional to the ease of entry. As Sweden has been increasingly welcoming to all kinds of immigrants since 2010, the numbers seeking lifetime entitlement in the welfare state has increased. These numbers are only implausible if Sweden ceases its increasing drive to throw open its borders and returns to a sane policy.

Norway, in contrast, is far less welcoming and has far fewer seekers. In September, by far the worst month, they got 160 a day, and two months ago they only got 50 a day.

It's up to Sweden to shake off its pathological need to sacrifice itself to the hordes, so far, that looks impossible.

 

[dystopian]

While I am not responsible for what those others said, I suspect there is a big difference. Statistically the rate of violent criminality among those of Muslim origin are much higher than that of European Germans. Hence, be alarmed.

Need some references for that statement maxparrish.

While he is technically correct; the argument doesn't really hold any water since there's absolutely zero reason to suspect there's anything other than socio-economic factors at play there. And they're statistically also victims more often.

The differences can mostly be explained by the fact that there's large numbers of dissatisfied youth of immigrant descent whose socio-economic position tends to be more fucked up than that of other Germans. Not that racists would accept this obvious bit of reality as explaining the difference when they could just blame it on the foreigners.

 

[TSwizzle]

The canary in the coal mine gasps for oxygen;

A Christian Syrian teenager has told The Local how he fears he is "going to die" after threats containing Isis symbols were painted on his family's takeaway shop, amid growing safety concerns among the Assyrian community in west Sweden.

http://www.thelocal.se/20151016/isis-graffiti-scares-syrians-in-gothenburg

 

[maxparrish]

While I am not responsible for what those others said, I suspect there is a big difference. Statistically the rate of violent criminality among those of Muslim origin are much higher than that of European Germans. Hence, be alarmed.

Need some references for that statement maxparrish.

Immigrants in Germany are overrepresented in crime statistics. In Berlin, young male immigrants are three times more likely to commit violent crimes than their German peers.[17] The crime rate of immigrants is at first glimpse about 5 times higher than that for Germans (4.9 : 1). A differentiated analysis of the Bavarian police (Landeskriminalamt) shows that the relation of 4.9 : 1 drops to 2.7 : 1 if only the registered population of foreigners is taken into account. It further drops to 2.4 : 1 if offences that cannot be committed by Germans are taken off. If only 14–21 years old male juveniles and young adults are considered, the ratio is 1.9 : 1.[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime#Germany

And who are these foreign miscreants? From the wiki cite:

Another important issue is that young foreigners and the so-called
Spätaussiedler are seen as highly involved in violent crimes. Pfeiffer et al.
(1998, 50) demonstrated that in the city of Hannover 95% of the increase of
robbery and assault during the 90s could be attributed to these groups.
If we look at self report studies the high violent crime rates particularly of
the Turkish and ex-Yugoslavian group become evident. Another
problematic group are young naturalised immigrants (see Figure 7).

http://www.rsf.uni-greifswald.de/fileadmin/mediapool/lehrstuehle/duenkel/Germany_youngMig.pdf


Fig 7 shows that Turks (Muslims) youth are "leader of the pack" when it comes to violent crime.

 

[dystopian]

Apparently those who relish third world immigration to Europe can't actually show it to be of benefit to the historic European population, but they sniff out and express cherry-picked skepticism from an overwhelmingly negative picture.

Wut?

It's quite easy to show there's a benefit, actually. There's been numerous studies that show long term economic benefits to taking in immigrants; regardless of the immigrant's ethnicity. These studies have been referenced before in this thread, and I have not witnessed any valid refutations from the xenophobic camp. There is no need to rehash.

There *is* however, a need to mock stupid statements when they are made; or when people quote the stupid statements.

The number of asylum claiming seekers (legit and fake) is directly proportional to the ease of entry. As Sweden has been increasingly welcoming to all kinds of immigrants since 2010, the numbers seeking lifetime entitlement in the welfare state has increased. These numbers are only implausible if Sweden ceases its increasing drive to throw open its borders and returns to a sane policy.

No, the numbers are implausible; period.

Anyone who takes completely made up numbers (much higher than the actual numbers which are high due to a *temporary* humanitarian crisis), and without any justification whatsoever extrapolates from those numbers over a period of 15 years in order to try and make some sort of political point...

...is either a dishonest bastard who is trying to scare people, or a fucking idiot.

Where does this figure of 1000-1500 asylum seekers a day even come from? There's been about 86,000 asylum seekers to Sweden across all of 2015 thus far. If we take the government estimate of 100,000 total this year... that gives us an average figure of 274 asylum seekers a day. In other words, the idiot/dishonest bastard you quoted multiplied the base numbers by as much as 5,5 before he arbitrarily decided to extrapolate over a ridiculous period of time.

But by all means... keep pretending the sky is falling.

 

[maxparrish]

Need some references for that statement maxparrish.

While he is technically correct; the argument doesn't really hold any water since there's absolutely zero reason to suspect there's anything other than socio-economic factors at play there. And they're statistically also victims more often.

The differences can mostly be explained by the fact that there's large numbers of dissatisfied youth of immigrant descent whose socio-economic position tends to be more fucked up than that of other Germans. Not that racists would accept this obvious bit of reality as explaining the difference when they could just blame it on the foreigners.

You've lost (or never had) the context of original exchange. I pointed out that perhaps people use examples of Muslim violence as a generalization because that group is statistically more violent. It does not matter if it is "ONLY" because they are also an underclass. Both are demographic realities the German Muslim population, and your rationalizations does not make it any less real.

 

[dystopian]

You've lost (or never had) the context of original exchange. I pointed out that perhaps people use examples of Muslim violence as a generalization because that group is statistically more violent. It does not matter if it is "ONLY" because they are also an underclass. Both are demographic realities the German Muslim population, and your rationalizations does not make it any less real.

Yes, of course. In a thread that's basically been nothing but people screaming that the muslims are invading Europe, pointing out reasons why muslim youth might be more criminal that suggest them being muslim has nothing to do with it is not 'contextually valid'. Muslims bad! No care for reasons!

Also, maybe pointing out that black Americans being overrepresented in the crime figures over there is due to socio-economics shouldn't get in the way of blaming it on them being an inferior subspecies that y'all are better off without? Or would that comparison somehow make you feel uncomfortable?

 

[laughing dog]

You've lost (or never had) the context of original exchange. I pointed out that perhaps people use examples of Muslim violence as a generalization because that group is statistically more violent. It does not matter if it is "ONLY" because they are also an underclass. Both are demographic realities the German Muslim population, and your rationalizations does not make it any less real.

If it is primarily due to their underclass status, it stands to reason that when they ascend up the status ladder that they no longer will be any more or less violent than anyone else in that class. In other words, if it is due to their current status, this abnormally high violence rate is a temporary problem.

Fortunately for refugees, it appears most Germans agree with Angela Merkel's recent quote of "If we have to apologise for showing a friendly face in emergencies, then this is not my country".

 

[TSwizzle]

Merkel is lying through her teeth. The majority of these "refugees" are economic migrants.

 

[fromderinside]

Merkel is lying through her teeth. The majority of these "refugees" are economic migrants.

So Aleppo is trash and the refuges are not political? I find what's passing through Merkel's dentition perfect. As for violence, well, forced immigrants initially tend to be so, but, they settle down and make the place better place to live.

I'm thinking that with Germany's current 300K worker shortage each year the emigres will ultimately fit right in. Sure there's going to be some reaction and it could upset an election or two. Still with its economic engine intact Germany will right itself and continue toward a more pluralistic future making good Germans out of most all who stay after the troubles in their homelands pass.

This thing is just a blip, a minor blip, that will not result in reversion to Nazi ways.

What say you?

 

[Bomb#20]

... secularization does in fact work on immigrant populations too (for instance, in the US, at least 32% of those raised muslim are no longer muslim in adulthood). When you actually look at all the factors, one is forced to determine that it is highly unlikely Europe will ever have a percentage of muslims that that exceeds 10-12%. It's likely to top out around 10% and then decline.

How long did it take for Indonesia to go through the demographic swing over to Islam. It is pretty damn far from Saudi Arabia.

You could've done some research to get the answer: around 500 years. Of course, you can not take the islamization of Indonesia and somehow transpose that on Europe to make any meaningful projections; given there's widely different factors at play.

He can't? On what grounds then do you figure you get to take the secularization of American Muslims and somehow transpose that on Europe to make any meaningful projections, given there's widely different factors at play? The differences in immigration policies and immigrant integration practices between the US and Sweden are extreme.

 

[Trausti]

This thread is like a guest on the Jerry Springer show. The guest is in an abusive relationship and the crowd wonders aloud why she's still with him. But despite the battery, infidelity, and money sponging, she can't bring herself to acknowledge the obvious. She loves him Jerry. If only everyone else could understand him like she does, they'd quit criticizing. After all, he's really the victim not her. Blame society.

 

[Bomb#20]

Strange that very little of this is actually a problem here in Sweden. Our problem is fearmongering facists/nazists.

Is it? Sounds like a good reason to cut back on the fearmongering fascist/nazist imports then. The trouble is, for some reason it seems to cripple a lot of people's ability to recognize a fearmongering fascist/nazist when they encounter one, if the guy happens to be from culture A instead of from culture B.

 

[maxparrish]

Wut?

It's quite easy to show there's a benefit, actually. There's been numerous studies that show long term economic benefits to taking in immigrants; regardless of the immigrant's ethnicity. These studies have been referenced before in this thread, and I have not witnessed any valid refutations from the xenophobic camp. There is no need to rehash.

There *is* however, a need to mock stupid statements when they are made; or when people quote the stupid statements.

Given that there are more than 110 pages of posts in this thread, you might offer up the best of these "studies" so that I can autopsy it for you. They are almost certain to be claptrap - much as the pro-immigration boosterism studies are in the US.

In the meantime I suggest you read the work of the founder of immigration economics, George J. Boras. (Borjas is the Robert W. Scrivner Professor of Economics and Social Policy at the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University.). An immigrant himself to the US, the labor economist is credited with creating the field of immigration economics, and no one in this research field has a greater reputation or stature.

Unfortunately for the pseudo-intellectuals among the immigration loving choir, his research and views are much different than there simple-minded "truthies".

It amazes me that the cosmopolitan sniffers, who wouldn't know the difference between an labor model and a fashion model, are constantly telling the lay folk that they represent the "informed" thought of regurgitated shame propagandists and compromised national myths.

Borjas textbook: http://www.amazon.com/Immigration-E...&sr=1-1&keywords=Immigration+Economics+Borjas

And for America's own third world immigration debacle:

http://www.amazon.com/Heavens-Door-...9MiAjXL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR106,160_

The number of asylum claiming seekers (legit and fake) is directly proportional to the ease of entry. As Sweden has been increasingly welcoming to all kinds of immigrants since 2010, the numbers seeking lifetime entitlement in the welfare state has increased. These numbers are only implausible if Sweden ceases its increasing drive to throw open its borders and returns to a sane policy.

No, the numbers are implausible; period.

Anyone who takes completely made up numbers (much higher than the actual numbers which are high due to a *temporary* humanitarian crisis), and without any justification whatsoever extrapolates from those numbers over a period of 15 years in order to try and make some sort of political point...

...is either a dishonest bastard who is trying to scare people, or a fucking idiot.

Where does this figure of 1000-1500 asylum seekers a day even come from? There's been about 86,000 asylum seekers to Sweden across all of 2015 thus far. If we take the government estimate of 100,000 total this year... that gives us an average figure of 274 asylum seekers a day. In other words, the idiot/dishonest bastard you quoted multiplied the base numbers by as much as 5,5 before he arbitrarily decided to extrapolate over a ridiculous period of time.

But by all means... keep pretending the sky is falling.

The numbers are from the article, by Ingrid Carlquvist at Gatestone. I linked to it earlier. Let's review the :

Reinfeldt’s deal opened the immigration floodgates. In 2014, 81,000 people sought asylum in Sweden; and 33,500 were granted asylum. However, as many of the immigrants subsequently brought over their relatives, that figure substantially increased. Last year, 110,000 people were granted residency status in Sweden. One should add to this figure an unknown number of illegal aliens.

There is now talk of 180,000 asylum seekers coming to Sweden in 2015. That number is more than twice as many as the year before. If half of them are granted asylum, and they each bring over three relatives, we are talking about 270,000 new immigrants to Sweden – within one year. Over 8000 people arrived just last week, 1,716 of whom were so-called “unaccompanied refugee children”.

I said that IF Sweden keeps going down the open borders path they are plausible. You say it is implausible under any circumstance. So, are you saying that:

a) There is no talk of up to 180,000 asylum seekers to Sweden in 2015? That compared to 2014, the numbers of seekers could not end up more than doubled?...or if not doubling this year how about next year? Do you honestly think the wars and economic deprivation in the third world that drive these waves are going to end soon? Really?

b) So there is no chance that 1/2 the applications will be approved...a similar rate to the "non-crisis" prior year?

c) So Sweden does not permit "chain migration", wherein a foreigner can then bring his relations...such as three others?

d) So you deny that Norway is much less tolerant and attractive than Sweden, and has a rate of application 1/5th to 1/10 of that of Sweden?

e) So why are you in denial?