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Foie Gras - Was: Lounge->Doing right now?

Dang, now I want some deer meat. Now it's time to lay out some corn and a gun. I'll lay me out some corn too. That's right, It'll be me, some corn, and a gun again the deer, his corn, and his gun. It'll be like so fair. Yeah, I won't eat the corn and he won't use the gun, but hey, we each make our choices. I just know I'm gonna shoot first, for I ain't taking no chances with an armed deer.
 
No, it is not, and it hasn't been for several years. I think the last time this was a rational forum, the place was still called IIDB.

Not sure why you think that. What do you believe has changed?

I may even be misremembering the IIDB days. Maybe nothing has changed. But my impression has been that there used to be more people here whose minds weren't already made up about everything important. Those people it seems have mostly left or become set in their ways, leaving this a relatively incurious forum, more interested in politics and casual socializing than truth seeking or intellectual rigor. I wonder about the forum demographics.
 
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I've noticed the changes but I think I understand the mechanism.

Truthseeking is challenging, until you have your beliefs sorted out. I think a lot of people then drift off and live their lives. Some stay and discuss, but the bloom is off the lily when it has ceased to be a process of discovery.

The alternative is not having the courage to make up your mind about the important things, after thinking them through.

I reckon most are able to reconsider their values in the light of new info, but as we age we run across most of the relevant info. Then, there are only new instances of the same issues.

I am reminded of a vegetarian and Buddhist-leaning person I knew. Every time I killed a mosquito he would give me the evil eye for what he considered my unthinking disregard for other creatures. He never once considered that I had long since thought it through and decided that the individual mosquitoes that are likely to give me or my loved ones Ross River virus,or even an itchy welt, are not important to me, as long as mosquitos are not an endangered species. Having thought it through once I don't need to agonise over the decision to swat each mozzie.

This is now a comfortable forum, like a comfortable marriage. It would get its vibrancy back from a fresh intake of young people struggling against each other to determine the nature of Right and Wrong.
 
You know what this forum needs? It needs a " Historical Jesus" thread. The one on RatSkep, which is continued from the " Richard Dawkins " forum which is extinct now, is over 2000 pages long, and still going.
 
You know what this forum needs? It needs a " Historical Jesus" thread. The one on RatSkep, which is continued from the " Richard Dawkins " forum which is extinct now, is over 2000 pages long, and still going.
People only believe that because it says so in the RatSkep thread itself. In reality, there never was any Richard Dawkins forum.
 
You know what this forum needs? It needs a " Historical Jesus" thread. The one on RatSkep, which is continued from the " Richard Dawkins " forum which is extinct now, is over 2000 pages long, and still going.
People only believe that because it says so in the RatSkep thread itself. In reality, there never was any Richard Dawkins forum.

I'll have you know that I was a senior member of that forum!

- - - Updated - - -

You know what this forum needs? It needs a " Historical Jesus" thread. The one on RatSkep, which is continued from the " Richard Dawkins " forum which is extinct now, is over 2000 pages long, and still going.
People only believe that because it says so in the RatSkep thread itself. In reality, there never was any Richard Dawkins forum.

http://realityismyreligion.me/2010/02/23/locked-entry-will-open-soon/
 
People only believe that because it says so in the RatSkep thread itself. In reality, there never was any Richard Dawkins forum.

I'll have you know that I was a senior member of that forum!
Yeah, and the Gospels were "eyewitness accounts" personally dictated by the apostles they're named after. How gullible do you think we are?
 
WTF!!!! Are you saying that it was my imagination? That there never was a RDF?

https://jerome23.wordpress.com/2010/02/23/the-end-of-an-era-richard-dawkins-forum-to-close/
The testimony of a member of the faith? You call that evidence?

It isn't even original! Come on, a discussion forum created as an afterthought, embedded in a website run by an owner whose primary interest is publishing professionally developed content that pushes atheism as an ideological agenda? Operation by amateurs who volunteer because they're personally committed to the community that rose up around the forum, at the best of times working at the margins of the owner's benign neglect? Management by administrators whose primary duty is to keep the forum from inconveniencing the owner? A sorry tale of collapse amid anger, infighting and recrimination? Personal connections and content lost forever because the owner felt no obligation to put himself in the shoes of people who'd come to rely on his servers? Where have we heard a story like that before? RDF is obviously a myth cobbled together from popular memes already in circulation based on earlier atheism forums.
 
Its a rational forum is it not?

No, it is not, and it hasn't been for several years. I think the last time this was a rational forum, the place was still called IIDB.

Juma did not make anything close to rational argument. It was more a threat of violence, and at best a fallacious equivocation that assumes everyone should feel identical about killing an duck as they would about being murdered.
Thus, Genesis' observation that Juma's threat would not prompt people to reconsider their position was accurately pointing out that rational people would not be impacted by it. It doesn't mean this is always a rational forum, as shown by both of your irrational responses to Genesis' comment.
 
Why eating something (foie gras) that requires extreme cruelty to animals to be produced?
Just out of curiosity, does foie gras actually require cruelty to produce it?
Or is the cruelty more an economic thing? Getting more liver per goose?

If i just kill a random goose is it still foie gras?
 
Why eating something (foie gras) that requires extreme cruelty to animals to be produced?
Just out of curiosity, does foie gras actually require cruelty to produce it?
Or is the cruelty more an economic thing? Getting more liver per goose?

If i just kill a random goose is it still foie gras?

Foie gras is a liver damaged by improper nutrition. If you slaughtered an ordinary goose, the liver would be more like duck or chicken liver. The force feeding diet produces a liver rich in fat, which some people think is delicious.

Whether it is cruel to force feed a goose, is another question. For all we know, the goose might like it. If we look around, we can see plenty of morbidly obese people. I shudder to think about the liver of a 400+ lb human.

This is where the real problem starts, when we anthropomorphisize animals. We would not want someone to force feed us, but on the other hand, many people appear to have been force fed. The results are the same.

Humans happen to be only one of the predators on this planet. A goose could fall prey to any number of large cat or canine species on the ground and just as many raptor birds in the air. Death at the teeth or talons of a predator is not a pleasant experience, by any standard. If a goose were capable of making the distinction, the life of a force fed French goose might actually be preferred to having one's entrails ripped out by an eagle.
 
Whether it is cruel to force feed a goose, is another question. For all we know, the goose might like it. If we look around, we can see plenty of morbidly obese people. I shudder to think about the liver of a 400+ lb human.

Those didnt get a wide tube forced down their throats and then had their stomachs filled as much as possible at each meal.
 
Whether it is cruel to force feed a goose, is another question. For all we know, the goose might like it. If we look around, we can see plenty of morbidly obese people. I shudder to think about the liver of a 400+ lb human.

Those didnt get a wide tube forced down their throats and then had their stomachs filled as much as possible at each meal.

That is reserved for beer.
 
Whether it is cruel to force feed a goose, is another question. For all we know, the goose might like it. If we look around, we can see plenty of morbidly obese people. I shudder to think about the liver of a 400+ lb human.

Those didnt get a wide tube forced down their throats and then had their stomachs filled as much as possible at each meal.

Exactly. It is the repetition of that act (??throughout life) that is repulsive. All the natural killings happen once, only. So the wolf/African Wild Dog "kills" where the quarry is part-eaten whilst still alive, cruel though that is, happens only once to that quarry. And so also the "humane" kills of the big cat tribe where the quarry is slowly asphyxiated, happen only once to each quarry.

I stand corrected, they do it twicea day for 12 days to ducks, three times a day for 17 days to geese. - According to Wiki.

and wiki says

Gavage-based foie gras production is controversial, due mainly to the animal welfare concerns about force-feeding, intensive housing and husbandry, and enlarging the liver to 10 times its usual volume. A number of countries and jurisdictions have laws against force-feeding, and the production, import or sale of foie gras; even where it is legal, a number of retailers decline to stock it.


To imagine that agoose actually enjoys or does not object to force feeding, takes a certain kind of imagination that I do not want to understand.
 
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvrgD0mAFoU[/YOUTUBE]
Video shows a humane way of having foie gras. If you watch it, you'll probably understand why we don't typically have that.
 
Whether it is cruel to force feed a goose, is another question. For all we know, the goose might like it. If we look around, we can see plenty of morbidly obese people. I shudder to think about the liver of a 400+ lb human.

Those didnt get a wide tube forced down their throats and then had their stomachs filled as much as possible at each meal.

And unlike Foie ducks, humans did not evolve a physiology that lacks any gag reflex and allows swallowing whole spikey fish several times wider than their necks, or the propensity and physiology to aid massive gorging combined with rapid metabolism of large quantities, which is critical to long distance migration.

That is why, except for the cherry picked footage of the worst most cruel farms, duck behavior during the brief end-of-life gavage period contradict what would be observed if the ducks experienced extreme discomfort or pain during the process and found it to be a particularly aversion experience.
Unless its done with needless lack of care, minimal restraint is required during the feedings, even when inserting the tube, because the ducks show little more resistance and struggle than if you were to try and pet one.


4321lynx said:
To imagine that agoose actually enjoys or does not object to force feeding, takes a certain kind of imagination that I do not want to understand.

To blindly presume that ducks experience these feedings like a human would (which is what you and all Foie opponents are doing) takes a kind of ignorance and fallacious anthropomorphism that is contradicted by fact and reason.

Like all interactions with animals, including pet owning, grooming, veterinary practice, and all forms of animal farming, Foie production can be done in ways that are highly and needlessly cruel, but the assertions that the process that is inherent to gavage period even when done properly is exceptionally cruel is unreasoned, baseless, and contradicted by relevant facts of duck physiology and the behavior of the gavaged ducks.
 
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