For Christians, define god

[Learner]

I would still like to just know the answer to this. To have a christian just answer the simple question. I’d really like to know. What is your god.

Defined in a way that I can’t name OTHER things or OTHER gods and have the vague, weaselly, apparently frightened, hedge attempt still fit.

Why can’t you people answer a simple question? You want this thing enshrined in our laws, you want people to be forced to obey this thing, why won’t you answer the most basic question?

Forced to obey? It can't be done this way sincerely, since this is not according to the gospel Those who claim this (calling themselves Christian) are using religion (obviously) for an alternative motive, other than the motive as Jesus would have wanted , as seen in the saying: "those who are willing to hear". Perhaps you should invite those types (who ever they are) to the forum and give their explanations. (which would be actually good to see and I would join you against those who endorse being forced)

Which leaves the theists on this forum who don't answer this question when the discription doesn't fit what they believe in. Or , they have already answered in other posts, just as I've done now.

What is it? How can you tell?
How can you recognize it?
How can you tell it’s not something else disguised as a god?
How do you tell the difference between it and other gods?

Fear of God - fear of Hell i.e. phsycological veiwpoint of early Saints (where it started, in my case),.. geograhical + archeological + historical names and places, .. various personal experiences ,... making the conclusion stemming from philsophical viewpoint from natural world studies & scriptural interpretative studies (improving with time) ,...not forgetting Pure faith etc.. A theist plus learning from each other.

You'd have variable answers. Some becoming theists by one particular way or by several ways, being instantly for some (due to personal experiences) or gradually for others.

I can tell you the difference between basil and poison ivy.
I can tell you the difference between a sedan and a coupe.
I can tell you the difference between a cirro-stratus and a cumulo-nimbus.
I can tell you the difference between a planet and a dwarf planet.

But you can’t even tell me the difference between a storming GOD and a not-god?

Can’t you even, maybe, pray for an answer and then post?
I tell you, if I had a personal relationship with a GOD, I’d be able to answer this simple question.

I (as other Christians too) could tell you, but ... do you want the answer from the theology pov, since you're asking believers or from something else other than the Christian POV? Because I don't, personally, see it difficult to answer.

 

[bilby]

No question is difficult to answer, if you don't try to provide a coherent and comprehensible response.

You seem to be saying that your god is (primarily) your fears.

But you have done an excellent job of obscuring your answer in such a way that any seeming content is instantly deniable if challenged - so it's unclear if that's actually your intent.

 

[Learner]

No question is difficult to answer, if you don't try to provide a coherent and comprehensible response.

You seem to be saying that your god is (primarily) your fears.

But you have done an excellent job of obscuring your answer in such a way that any seeming content is instantly deniable if challenged - so it's unclear if that's actually your intent.

Well at least we can agree its not difficult to answer.

Fear of God: To tell the truth and be truthful (early Saints) because of the fear of ... willing to suffer etc..etc..
Not Coherent? The theology is obviously not coherent to you . (no dishonesty from me here )

 

[bilby]

No question is difficult to answer, if you don't try to provide a coherent and comprehensible response.

You seem to be saying that your god is (primarily) your fears.

But you have done an excellent job of obscuring your answer in such a way that any seeming content is instantly deniable if challenged - so it's unclear if that's actually your intent.

Well at least we can agree its not difficult to answer.

Fear : To tell the truth and be truthful (early Saints) because of the fear of ... willing to suffer etc..etc..
Not Coherent? Theology is then not coherent to you . (no dishonesty from me here )

Your theology (and indeed everything else you write) is not clear to me.

It's like you are deliberately not saying anything substantive. There's loads of words, but no content. It's literally impossible to argue with - but that doesn't matter, because it's also contentless.

Your posts seem to assume a huge shared understanding that makes details unnecessary for communication - but no such shared understanding exists here. For example, your parenthetical "(early saints)" appears to mean something to you; But you haven't provided the context needed for it to mean anything to me. What about 'early saints' is relevant to your point? Which 'early saints'? WTF are you trying to say here??

All of your posts suffer from this. You need to stop assuming that other people already know what you mean - if you care about being understood.

 

[Learner]

Your theology (and indeed everything else you write) is not clear to me.

It's like you are deliberately not saying anything substantive. There's loads of words, but no content. It's literally impossible to argue with - but that doesn't matter, because it's also contentless.


Your posts seem to assume a huge shared understanding that makes details unnecessary for communication - but no such shared understanding exists here. For example, your parenthetical "(early saints)" appears to mean something to you; But you haven't provided the context needed for it to mean anything to me. What about 'early saints' is relevant to your point? Which 'early saints'? WTF are you trying to say here??

All of your posts suffer from this. You need to stop assuming that other people already know what you mean - if you care about being understood.

Pardon me, I was referring to the early Christians. (Originally named Saints)

Don't think I can say anything else from this point. Perhaps you haven't actually got anything yourself.

 

[James Brown]

You seem to be saying that your god is (primarily) your fears.

I'm pretty sure that fear and religion have a lot of overlap.

 

[abaddon]

Can you describe the difference between a banana, the sensation of warmth, and a quark?

From the different descriptions, the differences between them are obvious;

A banana is an edible fruit that grows in bunches on a tropical tree. They have a peel that is green when immature, turning yellow at at maturity. There is much, much more description available if you are really interested.

The sensation of warmth is the nerves sensing thermal transfer either through radiation, conduction, or convection. Unless you were referring to the emotional sense of closeness or comfort.

A quark is a theorized sub-atomic particle only found in pairs that make up all fermion matter. There is also much more information available if you are really interested.

Now if only theists could provide similar descriptions of this being they so firmly believe actually exists.

ETA:
Even those promoting the 'flying spaghetti monster' have considered their idea in enough detail that they can offer a pretty damned good description of the subject of that idea.

I don't know. Too much detail and you've put it into the same class as the banana. Which maybe is Politesse's point. What level of detail is wanted?

If "God" is not a readily perceived banana-like "thing", then you're into a level of abstraction more similar to the quark.

However, I would think most theist's conception of God would be like either the banana or the sensation of warmth. The Bible says it's a manlike being with emotions and that interacts with people and the world (or, extremely myth-like, he used to interact 'in days of old'). This is banana-level of detail.

But then theists often say "God is Love". This is sensation of warmth level of detail.

What's quark level of detail for God? Something that could not be directly sensed but can be experimentally confirmed. But their "Bible is historical fact" idea, and their "God is love" sentiment, indicate God should be at another level of detail than this.

- - - Updated - - -

Perhaps you haven't actually got anything yourself.

Unbelievers have theist vagueness to go on.

 

[skepticalbip]

I don't know. Too much detail and you've put it into the same class as the banana. Which maybe is Politesse's point. What level of detail is wanted?

If "God" is not a readily perceived banana-like "thing", then you're into a level of abstraction more similar to the quark.

However, I would think most theist's conception of God would be like either the banana or the sensation of warmth. The Bible says it's a manlike being with emotions and that interacts with people and the world (or, extremely myth-like, he used to interact 'in days of old'). This is banana-level of detail.

But then theists often say "God is Love". This is sensation of warmth level of detail.

What's quark level of detail for God? Something that could not be directly sensed but can be experimentally confirmed. The problem here is the theistic "will-to-belief" that makes them willing to say just anything... Theists will see "quark" and go "Yeah! That's how we'll evade the question! We'll say you need to seek God in the most mysterious (to us) science-y ways" (as in arguments for design). But their "Bible is historical fact" idea, and their "God is love" sentiment, indicate God should be at another level of detail than this.

The description of bananas, the sensation of warmth, and quark was in direct response to Politesse's question. That question, however, appeared to me to be nothing more than an evasion to avoid answering the question to theists, "exactly what do you mean by god?" Maybe I am really an outball outlier but, if I believe something, I have a damned good idea what I am thinking about and can easily describe it. In fact, I can even describe ideas and concepts that I have that don't exist in reality.

As I posted earlier, when asked by someone if I believe in god my general answer is the question, "what do you mean by god?". It is always stunning to me that most of them can not explain what they mean by god... I assume that it is because they never really thought about it and just have a nebulous, fuzzy, feel good sensation and a list of rules they should follow. Now if they answered with some specifics then I could answer with a yes or no depending on what they meant when they asked me.

 

[Rhea]

Forced to obey? It can't be done this way sincerely, since this is not according to the gospel Those who claim this (calling themselves Christian) are using religion (obviously) for an alternative motive, other than the motive as Jesus would have wanted , as seen in the saying: "those who are willing to hear". Perhaps you should invite those types (who ever they are) to the forum and give their explanations. (which would be actually good to see and I would join you against those who endorse being forced)

Which leaves the theists on this forum who don't answer this question when the discription doesn't fit what they believe in.

Let us not pretend, shall we, that “Christians” do not all claim each other when they need an argument from popularity to support their theology, and then rapidly disavow each other when the harm done by “Christianity” and “Christians” comes to light.

As George Carlin notes, “Jews don't recognize Jesus as the son of God, Protestants don't recognize the Pope, and Baptists don't recognize each other in the liquor store.”

Or , they have already answered in other posts, just as I've done now.

But you haven’t. See below.

What is it? How can you tell?
How can you recognize it?
How can you tell it’s not something else disguised as a god?
How do you tell the difference between it and other gods?

Fear of God - fear of Hell i.e. phsycological veiwpoint of early Saints (where it started, in my case),.. geograhical + archeological + historical names and places, .. various personal experiences ,... making the conclusion stemming from philsophical viewpoint from natural world studies & scriptural interpretative studies (improving with time) ,...not forgetting Pure faith etc.. A theist plus learning from each other.

You'd have variable answers. Some becoming theists by one particular way or by several ways, being instantly for some (due to personal experiences) or gradually for others.

I am unable to detect how any of your sentences act as answers to any of my questions. It seems like you are answering “How did you come to believe,” not “Define your god.”

The question is, “Define your god”:
What is it? How can you tell?
How can you recognize it?
How can you tell it’s not something else disguised as a god?
How do you tell the difference between it and other gods?

I (as other Christians too) could tell you, but ... do you want the answer from the theology pov, since you're asking believers or from something else other than the Christian POV? Because I don't, personally, see it difficult to answer.

If you don't see it as difficult to answer, then, for the love of reason! go ahead and answer. It might help you to answer each question below one at a time so you don’t forget the question and answer a different one, like “how did you come to your faith.” I stipulate that you have faith. Who/what do you have faith in? Who is your god? Define it. Describe it.

The question is, “Define your god”:
What is it? How can you tell?
How can you recognize it?
How can you tell it’s not something else disguised as a god?
How do you tell the difference between it and other gods?

 

[Rhea]

No question is difficult to answer, if you don't try to provide a coherent and comprehensible response.

You seem to be saying that your god is (primarily) your fears.

But you have done an excellent job of obscuring your answer in such a way that any seeming content is instantly deniable if challenged - so it's unclear if that's actually your intent.

Well at least we can agree its not difficult to answer.

Fear of God: To tell the truth and be truthful (early Saints) because of the fear of ... willing to suffer etc..etc..
Not Coherent? The theology is obviously not coherent to you . (no dishonesty from me here )

So your answer is, "My god is defined as fear of god" ??? Does that make sense to you? It does not make sense to me.

 

[Rhea]

I have asked a list of questions to help you learn how to "define" a thing. This seems to be overly difficult for all Christians so far. A person should be able to answer all of them for any thing that they are imagining. Authors do this when they are world-building (or, if they don't their books usually suck), engineers do this when they are trying to define a breakdown or defect, Legislators do this when they are trying to make a rule about something, biologists do this when they are claiming a new species, economists do this when they are trying to categorize trends. EVERYONE does this all the time. I honestly do not get why this is so impossible for you all, especially when you (claim to) have a personal relationship with the thing you're trying to define!

1. The question is, “Define your god”:
2. What is it?
3. How can you tell?
4. How can you recognize it?
5. How can you tell it’s not something else disguised as a god?
6. How do you tell the difference between it and other gods?

Let me add some additional questions to try to help.
There is a whole industry that assists with defining things tightly to assist in use of the thing. One method starts out with a chart:

[table="width: 500, class: grid, align: left"]
[tr]
[td]Attribute[/td]
[td]It IS this[/td]
[td]It IS NOT this[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Where does it happen[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]When does it happen[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]What is its size[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Add on any other question and answer: is/isnot[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[/tr]
[/table]


Additional questions here could include, can it speak directly to humans, does it answer prayers, does it have a magic hammer, does it sleep, can it procreate, does it mind that Catholics eat its son every Sunday, etc. Ask any question. Answer is/isnot. Keep going until you no longer define anything BUT your god.

Just start with ONE question if it helps you. Answer ONE question that defines your god. Something that is not useless and also describes a million not-god things. I fear rabid coyotes. Are they then gods?

 

[skepticalbip]

No question is difficult to answer, if you don't try to provide a coherent and comprehensible response.

You seem to be saying that your god is (primarily) your fears.

But you have done an excellent job of obscuring your answer in such a way that any seeming content is instantly deniable if challenged - so it's unclear if that's actually your intent.

Well at least we can agree its not difficult to answer.

Fear of God: To tell the truth and be truthful (early Saints) because of the fear of ... willing to suffer etc..etc..
Not Coherent? The theology is obviously not coherent to you . (no dishonesty from me here )

So your answer is, "My god is defined as fear of god" ??? Does that make sense to you? It does not make sense to me.

I missed that. I guess because I only skim through Lerner's posts and can generally make no sense of them. Those posts read to me as a string of simi-thoughts strung together in sorta a stream of conscious.

This nugget is a jewel though. Simply denying god would eliminate the fear if, "My god is defined as fear of god".

 

[Rhea]

HOW TO DEFINE SOMETHING:

A definition does not need to contain every piece of information known about a subject. Rather, it should contain information about the word and what the word refers to, and enough explanation to allow a user to distinguish that word from most other words.

Steps for Writing a Definition Essay
Choose a term you want to define, and introduce it to your readers. ...
Use several sources (dictionaries or encyclopedias) to see how the term you have chosen is usually defined. ...
Present the term you've chosen to your readers in the introductory part of your paper.

"Definitions" Basic terminology
"definiens" redirects here. For the company, see Definiens (company).
In modern usage, a definition is something, typically expressed in words, that attaches a meaning to a word or group of words. The word or group of words that is to be defined is called the definiendum, and the word, group of words, or action that defines it is called the definiens. In the definition "An elephant is a large gray animal native to Asia and Africa", the word "elephant" is the definiendum, and everything after the word "is" is the definiens.[5]

The definiens is not the meaning of the word defined, but is instead something that conveys the same meaning as that word.[5]

There are many sub-types of definitions, often specific to a given field of knowledge or study. These include, among many others, lexical definitions, or the common dictionary definitions of words already in a language; demonstrative definitions, which define something by pointing to an example of it ("This," [said while pointing to a large grey animal], "is an Asian elephant."); and precising definitions, which reduce the vagueness of a word, typically in some special sense ("'Large', among female Asian elephants, is any individual weighing over 5,500 pounds.").[5]

In terms of what, in brief (since it's not directly relevant to the question but it's important in order to understand what follows) a definition may be:

Realistic: When it defines a tangible being in the sense that the definition refers to the object rather that to the word we use to describe it or its reflection in our mind (conception).
Conceptualistic: When the defined being is a concept or our concept about a being.
Nominalistic: When the defined being is a word and the focus is on the e explanation of the word (etymology, meaning etc)

worth reading the whole thing at:
https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/1177/what-are-some-methods-of-defining-things

 

[abaddon]

post withdrawn

 

[Keith&Co.]

Forced to obey? It can't be done this way sincerely, since this is not according to the gospel

I don't think 'sincerely' was a big concern in trying to legislate scripture.

But Sunday business closings is an obvious example. It was not enough for believers to keep their sabbath holy by not doing certain things, they had to make it a law that everyone had to treat their sabbath as holy, even if you believed, but observed a different sabbath.

You apparently think that everyone who supported limitations on Sunday business was not really a Christain?
How about those whose opposition to samesex marriage is religious-based? Also not really Christains, because they want to legislste their religion?
Anti-abortionists? Not really xians?
How about 'teach the controversy' efforts to force creationism into public school science classes? Fake believers?

Or just a general legislation to allow discrimination for any 'sincerely held religious belief'? Are the really Christains, or just claiming to be?

 

[Kharakov]

God: being that tastes like butter cookies, dipped in a slightly sweetened hot mocha beverage on a cold winters day. The kind that makes you feel comfortable and awake, ready to tackle your next challenge.


Ohh, fuck. I'm talking about butter cookies and a nice mocha. It's 64 degrees outside too. Fucking freezzzzzziinngg.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Kudos to Rhea for pushing the question, something I have done many times and received the same non-responses. That said, this thread has certainly raised by awareness of what a god is to a christian. I would define it thus:

A non-physical man-like being that communicates with humans and that is not bound by any law or science.

I used the description "non-physical" because no christian I have ever encountered has been able to describe their god in any physical terms.

In other posts I have described the christian god as a religious ghost, and I think that pretty well communicates the christian mindset when it comes to describing their god in terms that another person can understand. Of course, if ghosts aren't real, neither are religious ghosts, so their god is not real. Lots of people believe in ghosts, however.

ETA

Perhaps more pragmatically, the christian god is one of many artistic expressions of "god," god being at its root an artistic invention, something that only exists in the mind of the author and the reader.

 

[Learner]

No question is difficult to answer, if you don't try to provide a coherent and comprehensible response.

You seem to be saying that your god is (primarily) your fears.

But you have done an excellent job of obscuring your answer in such a way that any seeming content is instantly deniable if challenged - so it's unclear if that's actually your intent.

Well at least we can agree its not difficult to answer.

Fear of God: To tell the truth and be truthful (early Saints) because of the fear of ... willing to suffer etc..etc..
Not Coherent? The theology is obviously not coherent to you . (no dishonesty from me here )

So your answer is, "My god is defined as fear of god" ??? Does that make sense to you? It does not make sense to me.

Ah yes it could be just a little bit of that time zone thing , a little lack of sleep. Give me a moment.

 

[Learner]

Let us not pretend, shall we, that “Christians” do not all claim each other when they need an argument from popularity to support their theology, and then rapidly disavow each other when the harm done by “Christianity” and “Christians” comes to light.

As George Carlin notes, “Jews don't recognize Jesus as the son of God, Protestants don't recognize the Pope, and Baptists don't recognize each other in the liquor store.”

Such wisdom ! I love hearing about those "philosophies" that people like quoting from, on the forums. Makes a good erm... argument.

But you haven’t.

What is it? How can you tell?
How can you recognize it?
How can you tell it’s not something else disguised as a god?
How do you tell the difference between it and other gods?

I have never had personal experiences like some of the other Christians, as my belief, gradually came about. I just read the bible also listening to those who scrutinize and study it plus other various things.

Imo its 'consistent' , imo it 'makes more sense' the more I read it. I trust the theology (Christ and those early followers of Christ). I would not of believed in GOD or the OT, if there wasn't a "New Testament", which may surprise you.

Simply put: I believe in GOD because of JESUS and what HE says of GOD and the scriptures! (one of many reasons why HE came to make people like me, come to believe in GOD ).

GOD is said to be a SPIRIT (because it says so) and thats how I define HIM. Whats a spirit? I have no idea what it consists of.

Yep... tis faith. Faith in GOD because of JESUS, those who existed before me, and the gospel.

And so thats my answer. Is this an acceptable answer to you?

 

[Learner]

I don't think 'sincerely' was a big concern in trying to legislate scripture.

But Sunday business closings is an obvious example. It was not enough for believers to keep their sabbath holy by not doing certain things, they had to make it a law that everyone had to treat their sabbath as holy, even if you believed, but observed a different sabbath.

You apparently think that everyone who supported limitations on Sunday business was not really a Christain?

Jesus said HE didn't come to abolish the law ,in which I believe it means , that it was for those who would "still" continue with the Ten commandments e.g. the Jews. The gentiles who probably wouldn't keep to the 10 Commandments, were given the two greatest commandements : “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

How about those whose opposition to samesex marriage is religious-based? Also not really Christains, because they want to legislste their religion?

Religion and the church and same-sex marriage in the church is bound to cause controversy, don't you think? I doubt there'd be as much protest if same-sex marriage was held in a town hall.

Anti-abortionists? Not really xians?

Depends if whether you see it as saving a human life or not.

How about 'teach the controversy' efforts to force creationism into public school science classes? Fake believers?

Whats wrong with a little religious education, (R.E). I didn't know of anyone that converted learning about it when I was at school (we were busy flicking pellets with rubber bands in class).

Or just a general legislation to allow discrimination for any 'sincerely held religious belief'? Are the really Christains, or just claiming to be?

Well it does depend if it really is "discrimination". I know there are different types of issues.