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For Christians, define god

Well, that's convenient! I thought you were a Christian, though. Are you now a pantheist or something? Because Christians absolutely do not think other religions' gods are the God of the Bible. They are considered false gods. Heretic!

But I imagine a lot of Hindus would be happy that you agree with them that their gods are God.
True. To the best of my recollection, that is the very first of the Ten Commandments that Christians believe were handed down by the Christian god himself.
 
Well, that's convenient! I thought you were a Christian, though. Are you now a pantheist or something? Because Christians absolutely do not think other religions' gods are the God of the Bible. They are considered false gods. Heretic!

But I imagine a lot of Hindus would be happy that you agree with them that their gods are God.
True. To the best of my recollection, that is the very first of the Ten Commandments that Christians believe were handed down by the Christian god himself.

You'd think that would be a very important factor in such discussions as this.

But like I've said, most people who identify as Christian don't believe any such thing. It's the identity they worship and defend.
 
If even just one minute tenet or claim of any religion is even partially true, then atheism is 100% false. So I'll defend theism versus atheism until such time as you concede (arguendo) that at least one of the blind men below is experiencing some sort of evidence for theism.

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They're experiencing evidence of A Big Something. They can deduce from that there's an objective reality. But the overall character of that reality is something they don't know.

Don't forget to not privilege yourself with thinking you see the whole elephant (whatever 'big something' it's meant to represent). It can be easy to do, looking at the drawing, to assume the third-person perspective that the artist assumes. But the artist doesn't actually have a god's-eye view where he can stand outside of his own limited mind and see the entire elephant. It's there in the drawing because the parable says "elephant". But what does the elephant stand for? If you're a theist you'll inevitably say "God". Many atheists would say "universe".

I wondered "why are they blind?" So I've read up on the parable, and read John Godfrey Saxe's rhyme about it. The point is not that the blind men are all partly right, but that they're religiously dogmatic about their partial perceptions and thus quarrelsome about them:
So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!


Different traditions propose different solutions to the problem of religious dogmatism. Buddhism's advice is to stop clinging to views. Rumi, a Sufi, suggested they need a candle so they can agree better (the Sufi version "Elephant in a Dark Room"). And this idea of illumination, to make fuller use of the senses, is the closest to what a scientific view of the parable would be. Namely, that these persons with limited perceptions should compare notes about the evidence of their senses

So to sum up, a non-biased reading of the parable is it indicates that people manage to experience "something". But stay clueless of what the something is because of religious dogmatism.

You want to say they're partly right about God. But in doing this you assume God. Somehow you think the elephant must represent God, but don't explain why. And it does nothing to undermine atheism to keep asserting God exists.
 
Not to mention various blind men who feel the same part of the elephant and make mutually exclusive conclusions.
 
Not to mention various blind men who feel the same part of the elephant and make mutually exclusive conclusions.

"Stiff, you say? It was soft and floppy when I touched it. I suppose this proves that Elephant is not immutable."
 
Modern followers of Abrahamic religions take the First Commandment as an endorsement of monotheism. However, an expression like "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" is perfectly consistent with polytheism and henotheism. That is, it is not a commandment to believe in only one god, only to hold one god as more important than all the others. Monotheism evolved over time, especially when Jews were under Achaemenid rule. So the First Commandment could be repurposed as a kind of endorsement of monotheism.
 
Not to mention various blind men who feel the same part of the elephant and make mutually exclusive conclusions.

There's no indication that the blind men are simultaneously feeling the exact same part of the elephant and arriving at mutually exclusive conclusions. They are all unknowingly feeling just one small different part individually.

Even if the picture did show two blind men both feeling the same part at the same time, describing a tusk variously as a giant thick spear or a smooth log or a horn or a tooth does not constitute mutually exclusive conclusions.
 
Not to mention various blind men who feel the same part of the elephant and make mutually exclusive conclusions.

There's no indication that the blind men are simultaneously feeling the exact same part of the elephant and arriving at mutually exclusive conclusions.

That's true. Because the "blind men and an elephant" idea is an made-up analogy to describe a human phenomenon in overly-simplistic terms.

In this case in particular, the analogy is demonstrated by a hand-drawn picture of six identically-dressed faceless human beings with skin the color of ink.
 
Lion IRC,

If nothing else, my previous post should manage to get across that the parable is itself an elephant. It can be interpreted it in different ways.

Your observation that different people see God in different ways tells us 1) God is a concept and 2) if there's anything in reality that corresponds with that concept, then no one seems to know what that is.
 
O how they cling and wrangle, some who claim
For preacher and monk the honored name!
For, quarreling, each to his view they cling.
Such folk see only one side of a thing.
 
One of the blind men replied, "we could, put all our experiences together and maybe ... get a better idea."

The blindness of these men goes deeper than their eyeballs, this being the actual lesson of the parable. Given sight they would still not see.
 
I would still like to just know the answer to this. To have a christian just answer the simple question. I’d really like to know. What is your god.

Defined in a way that I can’t name OTHER things or OTHER gods and have the vague, weaselly, apparently frightened, hedge attempt still fit.

Why can’t you people answer a simple question? You want this thing enshrined in our laws, you want people to be forced to obey this thing, why won’t you answer the most basic question?

What is it? How can you tell?
How can you recognize it?
How can you tell it’s not something else disguised as a god?
How do you tell the difference between it and other gods?

I can tell you the difference between basil and poison ivy.
I can tell you the difference between a sedan and a coupe.
I can tell you the difference between a cirro-stratus and a cumulo-nimbus.
I can tell you the difference between a planet and a dwarf planet.

But you can’t even tell me the difference between a storming GOD and a not-god?
Can’t you even, maybe, pray for an answer and then post?
I tell you, if I had a personal relationship with a GOD, I’d be able to answer this simple question.
 
I tell you, if I had a personal relationship with a GOD, I’d be able to answer this simple question.

At the very least, you should be able to describe the experience as opposed to defending the group identity or justifying the concepts of an organized religion, neither of which is a god of any kind.
 
I would still like to just know the answer to this. To have a christian just answer the simple question. I’d really like to know. What is your god.

Defined in a way that I can’t name OTHER things or OTHER gods and have the vague, weaselly, apparently frightened, hedge attempt still fit.

Why can’t you people answer a simple question? You want this thing enshrined in our laws, you want people to be forced to obey this thing, why won’t you answer the most basic question?

What is it? How can you tell?
How can you recognize it?
How can you tell it’s not something else disguised as a god?
How do you tell the difference between it and other gods?

I can tell you the difference between basil and poison ivy.
I can tell you the difference between a sedan and a coupe.
I can tell you the difference between a cirro-stratus and a cumulo-nimbus.
I can tell you the difference between a planet and a dwarf planet.

But you can’t even tell me the difference between a storming GOD and a not-god?
Can’t you even, maybe, pray for an answer and then post?
I tell you, if I had a personal relationship with a GOD, I’d be able to answer this simple question.

No one claims that God is anything remotely like a sprig of basil.

Can you describe the difference between a banana, the sensation of warmth, and a quark?
 
I would still like to just know the answer to this. To have a christian just answer the simple question. I’d really like to know. What is your god.

Defined in a way that I can’t name OTHER things or OTHER gods and have the vague, weaselly, apparently frightened, hedge attempt still fit.

Why can’t you people answer a simple question? You want this thing enshrined in our laws, you want people to be forced to obey this thing, why won’t you answer the most basic question?

What is it? How can you tell?
How can you recognize it?
How can you tell it’s not something else disguised as a god?
How do you tell the difference between it and other gods?

I can tell you the difference between basil and poison ivy.
I can tell you the difference between a sedan and a coupe.
I can tell you the difference between a cirro-stratus and a cumulo-nimbus.
I can tell you the difference between a planet and a dwarf planet.

But you can’t even tell me the difference between a storming GOD and a not-god?
Can’t you even, maybe, pray for an answer and then post?
I tell you, if I had a personal relationship with a GOD, I’d be able to answer this simple question.

No one claims that God is anything remotely like a sprig of basil.
Well that is at least a very small start - god is not like a sprig of basil... though you may get an argument from animists.
Can you describe the difference between a banana, the sensation of warmth, and a quark?
From the different descriptions, the differences between them are obvious;

A banana is an edible fruit that grows in bunches on a tropical tree. They have a peel that is green when immature, turning yellow at at maturity. There is much, much more description available if you are really interested.

The sensation of warmth is the nerves sensing thermal transfer either through radiation, conduction, or convection. Unless you were referring to the emotional sense of closeness or comfort.

A quark is a theorized sub-atomic particle only found in pairs that make up all fermion matter. There is also much more information available if you are really interested.

Now if only theists could provide similar descriptions of this being they so firmly believe actually exists.

ETA:
Even those promoting the 'flying spaghetti monster' have considered their idea in enough detail that they can offer a pretty damned good description of the subject of that idea.
 
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