Freddie Gray dies a week after being injured during arrest

[ZiprHead]

As I understand it, there's a trick cops do called "rattling the can" where they throw the detainee into the back of the paddy wagon then bounce him around quite a bit while en route to the jail house.

Let's not dismiss aliens. Ya know, missing time? They abduct you and ya not aware of it. There's no video of what happened in the van! Aliens coulda of got him then, and did a botched probe. The evidence is just as consistent.

While we've yet to find any evidence of aliens actually existing, there's plenty of evidence that many cops are brutal assholes. So failure on your part.

 

[Trausti]

So being carried by by cops, feet dragging behind, and a bystander yelling that a leg looks broke is "under his own power"? M'kay.

Watch the video before you make an ass of yourself with the snark :rollingeyes: He is standing on the edge of the van, on his own legs, and turns to look at something behind the cops before turning back around to duck into the van.

So he wasn't carried to the van? His legs weren't dragging behind? The woman yelling that he's leg was broke was just imagining things? I get it. I do. There's no video of the cops behaving badly so the cops must, just must, have conducted their evilness in the van. No video there. Ripe for speculation. 'Cause if they didn't do the beat down in the van, then there's nothing left to impugn the cops. And the narrative won't let that happen.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What I actually said was that a nearly severed spine is a serious red flag. Should be a red flag for everyone and the Police owe answers immediately. Why that isn't the case with you, Trausti, Loren, etc... I can only try to imagine.

Well, it's certainly serious, but it is because of the rare nature of this type injury that police conduct is an unlikely cause; especially, here, where there is no indication of bruising, swelling, scaring, bleeding, and so on. That the police did not immediately recognize that he had a catastrophic injury is not that surprising. Being able to spot incomplete spinal cord injury, and rule out other diagnoses, is something within the expertise of an ER doc or neurologist, not a lay person. Breathing difficulty, which Gray apparently reported, is associated with incomplete spinal cord injury but it not diagnostic of it. Many illnesses have shortness of breath as a symptom. Regardless, it's not certain that had he been taken to the hospital sooner it would have made any difference in the outcome.

Is it even within the capabilities of a ER doc or neurologist? I thought that sort of thing was the domain of the radiologist--and no cop hauls around an x-ray machine!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Watch the video before you make an ass of yourself with the snark :rollingeyes: He is standing on the edge of the van, on his own legs, and turns to look at something behind the cops before turning back around to duck into the van.

So he wasn't carried to the van? His legs weren't dragging behind? The woman yelling that he's leg was broke was just imagining things? I get it. I do. There's no video of the cops behaving badly so the cops must, just must, have conducted their evilness in the van. No video there. Ripe for speculation. 'Cause if they didn't do the beat down in the van, then there's nothing left to impugn the cops. And the narrative won't let that happen.

We have claimed behavior and then one act inconsistent with the supposed injuries--that suggests he's faking.

 

[Trausti]

Well, it's certainly serious, but it is because of the rare nature of this type injury that police conduct is an unlikely cause; especially, here, where there is no indication of bruising, swelling, scaring, bleeding, and so on. That the police did not immediately recognize that he had a catastrophic injury is not that surprising. Being able to spot incomplete spinal cord injury, and rule out other diagnoses, is something within the expertise of an ER doc or neurologist, not a lay person. Breathing difficulty, which Gray apparently reported, is associated with incomplete spinal cord injury but it not diagnostic of it. Many illnesses have shortness of breath as a symptom. Regardless, it's not certain that had he been taken to the hospital sooner it would have made any difference in the outcome.

Is it even within the capabilities of a ER doc or neurologist? I thought that sort of thing was the domain of the radiologist--and no cop hauls around an x-ray machine!

OT: I'm just writing that based on my experience representing and deposing ER physicians. The purpose of the ER doc is to stabilize and then determine the necessary consults and referrals. ER docs don't admit patients to the hospital. It'd be for the ER doc to decide, from signs, symptoms, and labs, whether the patient needs a neuro consult. And ER docs typically read x-rays and other scans - often called a "wet" read as the radiologist would do a report later - and use that read to write a consult, if necessary.

 

[Trausti]

So he wasn't carried to the van? His legs weren't dragging behind? The woman yelling that he's leg was broke was just imagining things? I get it. I do. There's no video of the cops behaving badly so the cops must, just must, have conducted their evilness in the van. No video there. Ripe for speculation. 'Cause if they didn't do the beat down in the van, then there's nothing left to impugn the cops. And the narrative won't let that happen.

We have claimed behavior and then one act inconsistent with the supposed injuries--that suggests he's faking.

Well, toss me with the lot who doesn't think he was faking.

 

[RavenSky]

Watch the video before you make an ass of yourself with the snark :rollingeyes: He is standing on the edge of the van, on his own legs, and turns to look at something behind the cops before turning back around to duck into the van.

So he wasn't carried to the van? His legs weren't dragging behind? The woman yelling that he's leg was broke was just imagining things? I get it. I do. There's no video of the cops behaving badly so the cops must, just must, have conducted their evilness in the van. No video there. Ripe for speculation. 'Cause if they didn't do the beat down in the van, then there's nothing left to impugn the cops. And the narrative won't let that happen.

So you have clearly refused to actually watch the video that you are spouting off about. okie dokie

 

[beero1000]

What I actually said was that a nearly severed spine is a serious red flag. Should be a red flag for everyone and the Police owe answers immediately. Why that isn't the case with you, Trausti, Loren, etc... I can only try to imagine.

Well, it's certainly serious, but it is because of the rare nature of this type injury that police conduct is an unlikely cause; especially, here, where there is no indication of bruising, swelling, scaring, bleeding, and so on. That the police did not immediately recognize that he had a catastrophic injury is not that surprising. Being able to spot incomplete spinal cord injury, and rule out other diagnoses, is something within the expertise of an ER doc or neurologist, not a lay person. Breathing difficulty, which Gray apparently reported, is associated with incomplete spinal cord injury but it not diagnostic of it. Many illnesses have shortness of breath as a symptom. Regardless, it's not certain that had he been taken to the hospital sooner it would have made any difference in the outcome.

Do we need a refresher on Bayes' theorem?

It doesn't matter how unlikely the injury is - it matters how much more likely the injury is given police misconduct than it is without police misconduct.

 

[Trausti]

So he wasn't carried to the van? His legs weren't dragging behind? The woman yelling that he's leg was broke was just imagining things? I get it. I do. There's no video of the cops behaving badly so the cops must, just must, have conducted their evilness in the van. No video there. Ripe for speculation. 'Cause if they didn't do the beat down in the van, then there's nothing left to impugn the cops. And the narrative won't let that happen.

So you have clearly refused to actually watch the video that you are spouting off about. okie dokie

It's not this one, where he is screaming, being carried, feet dragged, and the woman shouting his leg is broken:

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7TZaLpHJhU[/YOUTUBE]

And it's certainly not this one: http://globalnews.ca/video/1950539/video-of-freddie-greys-arrest-shows-him-dragged-to-police-vehicle

If you are privy to video not available to the rest us, please share.

 

[Trausti]

Well, it's certainly serious, but it is because of the rare nature of this type injury that police conduct is an unlikely cause; especially, here, where there is no indication of bruising, swelling, scaring, bleeding, and so on. That the police did not immediately recognize that he had a catastrophic injury is not that surprising. Being able to spot incomplete spinal cord injury, and rule out other diagnoses, is something within the expertise of an ER doc or neurologist, not a lay person. Breathing difficulty, which Gray apparently reported, is associated with incomplete spinal cord injury but it not diagnostic of it. Many illnesses have shortness of breath as a symptom. Regardless, it's not certain that had he been taken to the hospital sooner it would have made any difference in the outcome.

Do we need a refresher on Bayes' theorem?

It doesn't matter how unlikely the injury is - it matters how much more likely the injury is given police misconduct than it is without police misconduct.

Ah, given the high incidence of spinal cord injuries associated with arrests, I'll recognize your astute observation. Bravo.

 

[RavenSky]

So you have clearly refused to actually watch the video that you are spouting off about. okie dokie

It's not this one, where he is screaming, being carried, feet dragged, and the woman shouting his leg is broken:

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7TZaLpHJhU[/YOUTUBE]

And it's certainly not this one: http://globalnews.ca/video/1950539/video-of-freddie-greys-arrest-shows-him-dragged-to-police-vehicle

If you are privy to video not available to the rest us, please share.

http://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/watch/6-baltimore-cops-suspended-after-suspect-dies-431170115788 at the 6:21 mark. This video (and better versions of it) have been playing on the news incessantly, so it most certainly has been available to you if you had bothered to be informed on the topic you are spouting out about.

Seriously, you really need to try a little bit of honest discourse and rational consideration instead of your unnecessary snark. You are just making yourself look bad.

 

[RavenSky]

here is the same video with an explanation by the person who took it: http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bs-md-gray-video-moore-20150423-story.html

Interestingly, while it still shows Freddie Gray standing on the bumper of the van and looking around as I said before, the witness points out how the police had Freddie on the ground with one's knee in his neck, and his legs bent up so his feet were almost on his back. It is very possible that is where they injured his neck. At minimum, it certainly explains why his legs weren't working to support him at first.

This clip from CNN also shows the third video of the second stop when they put the leg irons on him: http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2015/04/22/nr-live-malveaux-freddie-gray-arrest-video.cnn

 

[ZiprHead]

So he wasn't carried to the van? His legs weren't dragging behind? The woman yelling that he's leg was broke was just imagining things? I get it. I do. There's no video of the cops behaving badly so the cops must, just must, have conducted their evilness in the van. No video there. Ripe for speculation. 'Cause if they didn't do the beat down in the van, then there's nothing left to impugn the cops. And the narrative won't let that happen.

So you have clearly refused to actually watch the video that you are spouting off about. okie dokie

When I first watched the video, I thought Gray clearly to me appeared to be injured.

Just now on CNN it was announced that Gray was not seat-belted in the van as is required. A great way to make "rattling the can" quite effective.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Do we need a refresher on Bayes' theorem?

It doesn't matter how unlikely the injury is - it matters how much more likely the injury is given police misconduct than it is without police misconduct.

Ah, given the high incidence of spinal cord injuries associated with arrests, I'll recognize your astute observation. Bravo.

Yes... and when Dale Earndhart died, did you have a similar mindset that it was probably something that happened before he got in the car and raced at Daytona?

What I can not possibly comprehend is how you seem almost entirely unwilling to accept the possibility that something happened to him in the van.

 

[Derec]

Yes... and when Dale Earndhart died, did you have a similar mindset that it was probably something that happened before he got in the car and raced at Daytona?

Obviously it must somehow have been a deliberate act (Michael Waltrip as prime suspect?) because a freak accident is too remote a possibility to consider?

What I can not possibly comprehend is how you seem almost entirely unwilling to accept the possibility that something happened to him in the van.

What I do not get is the amount of outrage here. People traveling up to Baltimore to protest in large numbers. Whether or not police acted improperly and in what way is something that should be investigated for sure, but do so many people get so worked up over the death of a thug (CNN describes him as having "extensive criminal history")? Same goes for people like Michael Brown or, locally, Nicholas Thomas (the Maserati shooting (not-brake) guy). Why such affinity of protesters with dead thugs?

 

[Derec]

One of the Baltimore reporters made a very astute observation. She's been a reporter in Baltimore for 25 years, and she noted that there are currently an average of 100,000 arrests per year for a city of 600,000. She said that 25 years ago it was a tiny fraction of annual arrests, and that the vast majority of current arrests are for things that would have only gotten a warning before.

I definitely agree that police is too quick to arrest for bagatelles. I also agree that many things that are illegal now should not be.
That said, I hope you realize that 100,000 arrests for 600,000 people doesn't mean 1/6 of the population gets arrested every year. Many of those arrests will be "frequent flyers" and some of the others are out-of-towners.

And in the case of Freddie Gray, police had zero justifiable cause to chase down and arrest him in the first place.

I would say taking off running as soon as he saw police gives them probable cause.

Of course freak accidents will happen from time to time. But when the police force is arresting people for no good reason, or no reason at all in the case of Freddie Gray, those freak accidents mean innocent civilians are dead.

Grey chose to run, and thus make himself look very suspicious. That's how the incident started.

 

[ksen]

I love the smell of "blaming the victim" in the morning.

Smells like . . . horse shit.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Obviously it must somehow have been a deliberate act (Michael Waltrip as prime suspect?) because a freak accident is too remote a possibility to consider?

Man, you can't even take an example the whole way.

What I can not possibly comprehend is how you seem almost entirely unwilling to accept the possibility that something happened to him in the van.

What I do not get is the amount of outrage here. People traveling up to Baltimore to protest in large numbers. Whether or not police acted improperly and in what way is something that should be investigated for sure, but do so many people get so worked up over the death of a thug (CNN describes him as having "extensive criminal history")? Same goes for people like Michael Brown or, locally, Nicholas Thomas (the Maserati shooting (not-brake) guy). Why such affinity of protesters with dead thugs?

Due process.

 

[Derec]

Man, you can't even take an example the whole way.

I did.

Due process.

I do think cases like this should be investigated to see whether due process was violated or not. However, what I am questioning is the time and other commitment of all these protesters (many from out of town!) who descend on sites of deaths of thugs specifically. Again - why do protesters have such an affinity to dead thugs?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Due process.

I do think cases like this should be investigated to see whether due process was violated or not.

How kind of you. That is pretty much what I'm stating here. That the circumstances in this case are extremely suspicious and immediate answers are necessary. Yet, we seem to be getting feed back from the likes of you in this thread that 'well fuck... this shit just happens from time to time.' Sound just like Glinda in Wicked.

However, what I am questioning is the time and other commitment of all these protesters (many from out of town!) who descend on sites of deaths of thugs specifically. Again - why do protesters have such an affinity to dead thugs?

Because it isn't always a "thug" and it is always assumed by some white folks that if there is an incident, it was a thug involved... because there was an incident.

Some of these people aren't nice, don't deserve any respect, the world may even be better off without them... but there is nothing in the Constitution noting these exceptions for bad people. Even criminals have the right to due process... and certainly from cruel and unusual punishment (which if he was injured in the van, that would most certainly be).