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Freddie Gray dies a week after being injured during arrest

Jimmy Higgins said:
How kind of you. That is pretty much what I'm stating here. That the circumstances in this case are extremely suspicious and immediate answers are necessary. Yet, we seem to be getting feed back from the likes of you in this thread that 'well fuck... this shit just happens from time to time.' Sound just like Glinda in Wicked.
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Then we agree in the main. I was offering the possibility of a freak accident against jumping to conclusions prematurely, and not as my own conclusion. I have no idea what happened here, so let's pros investigate.

Because it isn't always a "thug" and it is always assumed by some white folks that if there is an incident, it was a thug involved... because there was an incident.
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No, when it comes to police shooting people they aren't always thugs. But protesters love to flock to protest shootings of thugs specifically. Michael Brown was definitely a thug and Ferguson protests were huge. Tamir Rice or John Crawford weren't thugs (although they did act foolishly) and attracted hardly any protesters. Locally,Nicholas Thomas, the thug who tried to run over police in a Maserati when police tried to arrest him for felony probation violation (also for trying to run over a police officer) received a lot of protesters down in Smyrna. Even my congressman (Hank Johnson, from Georgia's 4th district which is mostly in DeKalb County, not Cobb) spoke at his funeral. Anthony Hill, who was mentally ill rather than a thug, received much less attention than Thomas.
So I ask again, why is there so much affinity by protesters for dead thugs?

Some of these people aren't nice, don't deserve any respect, the world may even be better off without them... but there is nothing in the Constitution noting these exceptions for bad people. Even criminals have the right to due process... and certainly from cruel and unusual punishment (which if he was injured in the van, that would most certainly be).
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But they do not have a right for thousands of protesters to give a shit about them. So why do so many protesters do?
 
Derec said:
Then we agree in the main. I was offering the possibility of a freak accident against jumping to conclusions prematurely, and not as my own conclusion.
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You were exclusively offering that possibility.

Because it isn't always a "thug" and it is always assumed by some white folks that if there is an incident, it was a thug involved... because there was an incident.
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No, when it comes to police shooting people they aren't always thugs.
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There you go.
But protesters love to flock to protest shootings of thugs specifically.
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The is unsubstantiated.
Michael Brown was definitely a thug and Ferguson protests were huge.
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Michael Brown was jaywalking. The judicial system in that town is corrupt, the people there had enough.
Tamir Rice or John Crawford weren't thugs (although they did act foolishly) and attracted hardly any protesters. Locally,Nicholas Thomas, the thug who tried to run over police in a Maserati when police tried to arrest him for felony probation violation (also for trying to run over a police officer) received a lot of protesters down in Smyrna.
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Tried to run over police? IE, tried to back out and escape you mean?
Even my congressman (Hank Johnson, from Georgia's 4th district which is mostly in DeKalb County, not Cobb) spoke at his funeral. Anthony Hill, who was mentally ill rather than a thug, received much less attention than Thomas.
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So do you have the stats on these individual cases and the protests or lack there of?
Some of these people aren't nice, don't deserve any respect, the world may even be better off without them... but there is nothing in the Constitution noting these exceptions for bad people. Even criminals have the right to due process... and certainly from cruel and unusual punishment (which if he was injured in the van, that would most certainly be).
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But they do not have a right for thousands of protesters to give a shit about them. So why do so many protesters do?
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You haven't established the position that thugs get more protests than people who aren't thugs.
 
Trausti said:
And it's certainly not this one: http://globalnews.ca/video/1950539/video-of-freddie-greys-arrest-shows-him-dragged-to-police-vehicle

If you are privy to video not available to the rest us, please share.
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Look more carefully at that video.

1) The position of his head/upper body looks to me like someone in control of their muscles.

2) Note the position of his legs while being dragged. Again, that says to me someone in control of their muscles.

3) The video cuts away just as it appears that he's standing up under his own power. I find that cut very suspicious.
 
RavenSky said:
http://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/watch/6-baltimore-cops-suspended-after-suspect-dies-431170115788 at the 6:21 mark. This video (and better versions of it) have been playing on the news incessantly, so it most certainly has been available to you if you had bothered to be informed on the topic you are spouting out about.

Seriously, you really need to try a little bit of honest discourse and rational consideration instead of your unnecessary snark. You are just making yourself look bad.
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6:21?? I think you're a few seconds late.

It looks to me like he stands under his own power when they move from the sidewalk to the street. I don't think the back of the van is clear enough to be sure of what's going on.
 
ksen said:
I love the smell of "blaming the victim" in the morning.

Smells like . . . horse shit.
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Victims get blamed because they very often played a considerable role in becoming victims.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
ksen said:
I love the smell of "blaming the victim" in the morning.

Smells like . . . horse shit.
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Victims get blamed because they very often played a considerable role in becoming victims.
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And just like in this case, as in many others, you actually don't know that was the case. Stating he got into the van just fine, doesn't exactly help the argument that the Police did nothing wrong.
 
ZiprHead said:
RavenSky said:
So you have clearly refused to actually watch the video that you are spouting off about. okie dokie
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When I first watched the video, I thought Gray clearly to me appeared to be injured.

Just now on CNN it was announced that Gray was not seat-belted in the van as is required. A great way to make "rattling the can" quite effective.
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I think there are three videos - two from two different angles of the initial arrest, and then another of the "second stop" when they put leg irons on him.

I agree that if we are seeing the limited clip of the cops dragging Freddie, it looks like he was injured before getting in the van. That, however, does not indicate to me that he injured himself. IF he was injured before being placed in the van the first time, the fact that one cop was kneeling on Freddie's neck on the pavement could have been the cause.

I think, however, that they had to drag him because while they had him on the ground (with a knee in his neck), they also had both of his legs bent all the way up so that his feet were nearly touching his back. Given how long he was held in this position just on the video - no telling how long he was held in that position before the video started - I suspect his legs were asleep/cramping. Once they were at the van, Freddie did seem to have use of his legs again, and he turned his head. It could be that he was injured during the arrest, and he was having trouble breathing due to his asthma, but I don't think this was the life-threatening injury.

I think that happened after at/after the second stop when they put him in leg-irons and threw him back in the van without a seat belt.
 
Derec said:
And in the case of Freddie Gray, police had zero justifiable cause to chase down and arrest him in the first place.
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I would say taking off running as soon as he saw police gives them probable cause.
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No it doesn't.

Not unless we already live in a police state. Do we?
 
RavenSky said:
I think, however, that they had to drag him because while they had him on the ground (with a knee in his neck), they also had both of his legs bent all the way up so that his feet were nearly touching his back. Given how long he was held in this position just on the video - no telling how long he was held in that position before the video started - I suspect his legs were asleep/cramping. Once they were at the van, Freddie did seem to have use of his legs again, and he turned his head. It could be that he was injured during the arrest, and he was having trouble breathing due to his asthma, but I don't think this was the life-threatening injury.
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Yeah, I could buy his legs being asleep. I do not believe paralysis existed at that point. If the injury existed then it was an incomplete fracture that later became a complete fracture.
 
Jimmy Higgins said:
You were exclusively offering that possibility.
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I was offering it as an alternative to the "received opinion".
The is unsubstantiated.
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In case after case, protesters and rioters alike tend to favor cases where the dead guy was a thug.

Michael Brown was jaywalking.
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He wasn't killed over jaywalking. He also robbed a store and, most importantly, attacked a police officer.

Tried to run over police? IE, tried to back out and escape you mean?
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Police were behind the car (which he stole, another felony). And he tried to do the same thing before (hence the felony probation he was on).

So do you have the stats on these individual cases and the protests or lack there of?
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No stats, but large protests are infrequent enough for examples I have provided to count as more than anecdotes. Do you have any counterexamples?

You haven't established the position that thugs get more protests than people who aren't thugs.
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I have given you examples. I could give you more. Even the "victim" who triggered he most infamous riot of the last half century was a thug - Rodney King.
 
Derec said:
...blah blah blah... THUG.....blah blah blah .... THUG...... blah blah blah ....THUG.
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Your obsession with thugs is irrelevant to the discussion about what happened to Mr. Gray. It should not have happened whether Mr. Gray was a "thug" or a "saint". The issue is not Mr. Gray's behavior or history but the behavior of the police.
 
laughing dog said:
Derec said:
...blah blah blah... THUG.....blah blah blah .... THUG...... blah blah blah ....THUG.
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Your obsession with thugs is irrelevant to the discussion about what happened to Mr. Gray. It should not have happened whether Mr. Gray was a "thug" or a "saint". The issue is not Mr. Gray's behavior or history but the behavior of the police.
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If Mr. Gray were a white man accused of rape, then Derec would consider him far more worthy of defending.
 
Ford said:
laughing dog said:
Your obsession with thugs is irrelevant to the discussion about what happened to Mr. Gray. It should not have happened whether Mr. Gray was a "thug" or a "saint". The issue is not Mr. Gray's behavior or history but the behavior of the police.
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If Mr. Gray were a white man accused of rape, then Derec would consider him far more worthy of defending.
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No matter what his current or past behavior was like.
 
RavenSky said:
"Thug" is the new "black"

Tamir Rice... thug

John Crawford... thug
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Except that I specifically mentioned those two as people who, while acting foolishly, were not thugs. And predictably triggered no large protests either.
 
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