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Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

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Harry Bosch said:
steve_bank said:
Looking at it from the Israeli side. Part of the problem with a two state solution is whether or not Palestinians can form a stable state with rule of law and suppression of violent extremism.

So far that does not seem likely.

Iran does not wan it, the conflict serves their political interests. A focal point for Iranian people. Israel is the eternal enemy.

Hamas is not likely to allow free elections that can remove them from power.

If Israel really wants peace I think it is on them to resolve Plasticine issues have with Israel..

Th Israeli solution as declared by Israel is the complete destruction of Hamas, no more cease fires and negations. That can only be accomplished by the destruction of Gaza.

As in ancient times surround and starve. In the news Gaza is out of energy.


The population will decline. They are at around 2.5 million.
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How is peace possible with a government, Hamas, that would sanction chopping the head off a baby in front of its Mother? It’s now being reported that the naked girl being paraded around by Hamas on the motorcycle was alive. No peace is possible with animals who would commit such acts. Peace with the PLO is possible, but won’t be easy.
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Not condoning or suppertime Hamas, but how do you have peace when Israel was founded on taking Arab land by force, and continues to do so?

If Israel intelligence labels someone a threat Israel will bomb the house of the person in Gaza or West Bank. Israel has done its share of killing innocents.

Don't know about today, Israel used to have secret trilas and if somebody was convcted in absentee he was killed. A star chamber.

Iranian scientists were assassinated. The Canadian ballistics expert who developed a super gun for Hussein that could reach Israel was assassinated.

Israel thinks it as a right to the land because it was a Jewish state 2000 years, and the ends justify the means.

Israeli troops opening fire on demonstrators without good reason.

The Israeli conservatives waged and won a long term propaganda campaign targeting American Christian conservatives. There is an Israeli PAC in the USA well funded.

When Netanyahu spoke to Congress he said we have the same values. There are tours of the 'Holy Land'.

There are positives. Against all odds Israel developed a modern technological state wit similar individual liveries as in the west. An independent judiciary under threat by King Bibi 1st. Democratic processes.

The problem IMO is Israeli Jews are too full of themselves and dismissed what they did to Passionless. The kind of moderates that made peace with Egypt are gone. Conserve theists won out.
 
From what I know of Arafat when he left college it was like he went to a job fair and chose terrorism as an occupation. Firt he went to Jordan cang truble, then to Palestine.

I looked at all the aid thet went to the Paesynins and none of it seend to go to much in the way of developemnt.

Arafat died a riich man despite his image of walking aroud in miklitray fatigues.

Evn without Israel the region woud still be a swamp.

The Lebanese Civil War had multiple factions on both sides and nothing to do with Israel.
Saudis vs Iran.
The Iraq Iran war. Chemicall wepons.
Iraq invasion of Kuwait.
Jordan civil war.

Before Isreal took it Jordan anexed the West Bank leading to a civil war over conrol of Jordan. I think that is where Arafat made his entrance.

I think the real issue with Israel at least initially may have been a stable quasi secular democracy in the midst of Arab Muslim monarchies. A treat to the theocracies.

In some ways Israel might have served as a model for economic success and stability for Iran and the Arab states.

With all the oil wealth that was reaped the region could have been a showcase.

From the pundits the the Hamas attack may be intended to upset the growing naturalization and economic ties with the Arab states.
 
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Was it mentioned here that Hamas was created by Israel to create problems for PLO/Arafat?
PLO was communist heavily leaning toward USSR. So Mossad created islamist leaning organization. Reminds you anything?
 
Yasir Arafat I remember as Ol' Stubbleface.

Blowback: How Israel Went From Helping Create Hamas to Bombing It
But did you also know that Hamas — which is an Arabic acronym for “Islamic Resistance Movement” — would probably not exist today were it not for the Jewish state? That the Israelis helped turn a bunch of fringe Palestinian Islamists in the late 1970s into one of the world’s most notorious militant groups? That Hamas is blowback?

This isn’t a conspiracy theory. Listen to former Israeli officials such as Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s. Segev later told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as “a creature of Israel.”)

“The Israeli government gave me a budget,” the retired brigadier general confessed, “and the military government gives to the mosques.”

“Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,” Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official who worked in Gaza for more than two decades, told the Wall Street Journal in 2009. Back in the mid-1980s, Cohen even wrote an official report to his superiors warning them not to play divide-and-rule in the Occupied Territories, by backing Palestinian Islamists against Palestinian secularists. “I … suggest focusing our efforts on finding ways to break up this monster before this reality jumps in our face,” he wrote.
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With sources
Arab and Jew - Google Books
and
How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas - WSJ.com
"Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation," says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades. Responsible for religious affairs in the region until 1994, Mr. Cohen watched the Islamist movement take shape, muscle aside secular Palestinian rivals and then morph into what is today Hamas, a militant group that is sworn to Israel's destruction.

Instead of trying to curb Gaza's Islamists from the outset, says Mr. Cohen, Israel for years tolerated and, in some cases, encouraged them as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and its dominant faction, Yasser Arafat's Fatah.
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The Intercept again:
In the past decade alone, Israel has gone to war with Hamas three times — in 2009, 2012, and 2014 — killing around 2,500 Palestinian civilians in Gaza in the process. Meanwhile, Hamas has killed far more Israeli civilians than any secular Palestinian militant group. This is the human cost of blowback.

“When I look back at the chain of events, I think we made a mistake,” David Hacham, a former Arab affairs expert in the Israeli military who was based in Gaza in the 1980s, later remarked. “But at the time, nobody thought about the possible results.”

They never do, do they?
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What were they thinking? That being officially religious would make them a conservative and stabilizing force in politics?
 
barbos said:
Was it mentioned here that Hamas was created by Israel to create problems for PLO/Arafat?
PLO was communist heavily leaning toward USSR. So Mossad created islamist leaning organization. Reminds you anything?
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That is very interesting.

Did you know the Kremlin leadership has been replaced by lizard people from Alpha Centuri who can make themselves look like humans?

Did you know the USA created the Soviet Union
 
So who will cry for the Palestinian children being killed? Or will we reconcile this within ourselves by calling them collateral damage, trapped in their open air prison, now without even the basic necessities of life? Not even their Muslim brothers will take them in. As if some lesser god had made their world.

Did Hamas evolve from the notion of a master race as Nazism did? No. It was born of decades of oppression by Israel, a nation forced upon them by western powers of the time. Still, could Jews and Palestinians have integrated and lived together in peace as they had done in the past? Of course they could have but the Jews decided to run roughshod over them just as soon as opportunity presented itself.
 
So called root cause analysis...an accident happens, what is the first causation?

A drunken driver driving in rain skids and kills somebody. He might have skidded anyway, but the likley root cause is driving drunk. Other conditions were contributing factors.

What set the current tragedy in motion was the way Israel was founded. Everything else flows from that. The Holocaust was a contributing factor in Jews declaring a state as a haven for Jews.

The moral issue is in the need for a safe haven Jews ended up doing to Palestinians what others did to them.

Jews formed Israel before I was born after the experience of WWII. It is not for me to pass judgment on that.

But what Israel did after that through today is subject to moral judgement.
 
steve_bank said:
Did you know the Kremlin leadership has been replaced by lizard
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Dude, what I said is an accepted historical fact, Israel did create Hamas.
Same way US created what eventually became Al Qaeda.
In both cases, you thought religious fanatics could be useful.
 
Harry Bosch said:
I don't think that the west could have made peace with the Nazis during WW2 or with Hamas today.
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True but lets clarify something. Nazis were the result of a bunch of Europeans waving a magic wand and starting shit with other nations. Hamas is the result of a people being mistreated over a significant amount of time. Big difference.
 
Israel says Gaza under siege until hostages released. That isn't remotely ethical. Israeli missiles are ensuring Hamas presence in Palestine for the next decade plus.
 
Jimmy Higgins said:
Israel says Gaza under siege until hostages released. That isn't remotely ethical. Israeli missiles are ensuring Hamas presence in Palestine for the next decade plus.
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It doesn't seem very practical either. Suppose they inadvertently bomb the hostages. If they are avoiding that, then wouldn't they be bombing non-military targets? Even if they don't bomb the hostages, what if Hamas starts killing them, showing photos? Hamas could say stop or claim Israel is bombing the hostages. It isn't clear to me that Israel wants to bomb Gaza into the Stone Age and following that send in massive ground troops and tanks for recovery of hostage remains, but that seems to be the direction.
 
Israeli missiles killed 11 UN staffers I think. I read that while not a common mindset, I read via BBC that a number of those in the Israeli government are saying fuck the hostages, full speed ahead.

I ponder Hamas got the hostages as bargaining chips because they knew Israel would be raging post this attack. Hamas would be best to start exchanging as soon as possible. But reason and logic aren't in high supply at the moment.

I can't imagine how those in captivity are feeling. What they are being threatened with. this is scarring a generation of Israelis and Palestinians.
 
barbos said:
steve_bank said:
Did you know the Kremlin leadership has been replaced by lizard
Click to expand...
Dude, what I said is an accepted historical fact, Israel did create Hamas.
Same way US created what eventually became Al Qaeda.
In both cases, you thought religious fanatics could be useful.
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They were useful. Then they weren't. Life is like that. We often create the problems that destroy us, see Taliban and Pakistan as well. Doesn't justify what happened. Doesn't justify what is happening. Likely won't justify what will happen. Iranian leader shitting on about kissing the hand of the planners of the attack, instead of the hands of the Palestinians that they neglect as well.

Also, shouldn't you be in another thread handwaving war crimes of killing civilians just for the fuck of it?
 
Harry Bosch said:
steve_bank said:
Looking at it from the Israeli side. Part of the problem with a two state solution is whether or not Palestinians can form a stable state with rule of law and suppression of violent extremism.

So far that does not seem likely.

Iran does not wan it, the conflict serves their political interests. A focal point for Iranian people. Israel is the eternal enemy.

Hamas is not likely to allow free elections that can remove them from power.

If Israel really wants peace I think it is on them to resolve Plasticine issues have with Israel..

Th Israeli solution as declared by Israel is the complete destruction of Hamas, no more cease fires and negations. That can only be accomplished by the destruction of Gaza.

As in ancient times surround and starve. In the news Gaza is out of energy.


The population will decline. They are at around 2.5 million.
Click to expand...
How is peace possible with a government, Hamas, that would sanction chopping the head off a baby in front of its Mother? It’s now being reported that the naked girl being paraded around by Hamas on the motorcycle was alive. No peace is possible with animals who would commit such acts. Peace with the PLO is possible, but won’t be easy.
Click to expand...
I recall a time when people thought that peace with the PLO was not possible.

Peace is only possible when the all the relevant parties want peace and are willing to do what it takes to achieve and sustain it. One big part of that is the willingness to forgive - something neither side in this conflict appears willing or able to do at this time.
 
Jimmy Higgins said:
They were useful. Then they weren't.
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Were they ever useful?
Jimmy Higgins said:
Also, shouldn't you be in another thread handwaving war crimes of killing civilians just for the fuck of it?
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You mean the one where you found ukrainian nazi useful in your war against Russia and now finding out that they sold weapons to ..... Hamas?
 
I'd say the goal of peace in these situations is to resolve that one more death is unacceptable. Sadly, Hamas' actions have really really made it hard to get to that point. Sure, there is the trouble that prior to this attack, Israel was just as stalwart about not negotiating. Negotiating for peace really wasn't an option to the far-right Israeli government. And as of now, they have nothing but blood in their eyes. And the rage can understood. But the goal shouldn't be vengeance, it should be about ensuring this doesn't happen again. And sadly, the wrong people in Israel are in charge to make that decision. They are going to Treaty of Versailles this shit up. And no one is holding them back.

No one with power wanted peace. There can never be peace when you dehumanize the opponent.
 
US refused to negotiate with Russia over Eastern Ukraine autonomy. And You want US to negotiate with religious fanatics from Hamas?
Actually I think you might. After all, you created them and they don't have nukes.
 
steve_bank said:
Israel thinks it as a right to the land because it was a Jewish state 2000 years, and the ends justify the means.
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British pretty much created Israel after WW1 when they encouraged jewish immigration there.
And they did so because that was what they promised local jews rebelling against ottoman empire.
They promised the same to arabs everywhere including Palestine. basically they promised the same territory to two different people :)
Brilliant.

Now, I don't really understand why Israel against two state solution, at least in principle.
Palestine is de facto a state already, crappy one but state. Is it because Israel wants all territory to itself but afraid to articulate it clearly?
Well, it will only get scarier as time goes by.
 
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barbos said:
US refused to negotiate with Russia over Eastern Ukraine autonomy. And You want US to negotiate with religious fanatics from Hamas?
Actually I think you might. After all, you created them and they don't have nukes.
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That belongs in Freethought and Humor.
 
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